Is your personal beliefs or privacy worth losing your job over?

@4thtwin,

There's also that faction of anti-vaxxers who say "My choice, my freed" and such. You're not going to tell me what to do! That has virtually nothing to do with trust. They've been working on mRNA for about 20 years, so it was already studied, etc. They were able to tweak it to this virus - that's why it was so readily available.

I got a flu jab and Shingrix in March, Moderna in April and May, and this year's flu shot this month. Obviously I don't have a problem with vaccinations. I remember my parents being scared to death that we children would contract polio and I know several people who did get it. Their quality of life is terrible.

For some companies, the vaccine is a condition of employment. If that means not being able to spread it to others, I'm all for it.

1 Reply

@Mame,

There are two separate issues here.

1) Would you personally choose to have an abortion?
2) Would you allow other people the right to choose (even if you think it os wrong)?

There are people who believe abortion is wrong, and still believe women should have the right to choose.

The same is true with Vaccinations. I absolutely got vaccinations for me and my children, and yet I support the rights of other people to choose.. and no, I don't think my employer has the right to know my vaccination status even though I am fully vaccinated.

Yeah I know pregnancy isn't contagious (why do I even have to say this).

My point is that you can support vaccinations as a good thing without believing you should force them on people who don't agree.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

The issue is the right of people to say 'No' to a medical treatment they don't want (for whatever reason) and to keep a part of their medical records private.

We agree about the effectiveness of vaccines.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

I remember when the Army required shots for bubonic plague and cholera. I was within three weeks of separation, but would they listen. No. At least one of them left me sicker than a dog, by the way.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The issue is the right of people to say 'No' to a medical treatment they don't want (for whatever reason) and to keep a part of their medical records private.

Here, medical data is private and can only be disclosed with the patient's consent (or, of course, by court order).

I also think that everyone has the right to refuse medical treatment.. However, he should then also accept possible negative consequences.

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@Walter Hinteler,

My understanding is that vaccine mandates either by the government or by employers would be impossible under the German constitution. I may be wtong about that, but I know privacy protections in Germany are much stronger than in the US.

I work in software, and dealing with German law for services offered in Germany is a pain in the ass. There is nothing more annoying for a software engineer than getting a change request from the legal department saying we have to change (or disable) a feature we worked hard to implement.

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@roger,

My local gp gave me the cholera and typhoid,but I had to drive to the tropical diseases centre in Bristol, about twenty miles away, for the yellow fever.

I wasn't that well off atthetime with enough petrol to get there and cash to pay for the jab.

It didn't go well, my gp, a doddery old locum, was supposed to have made an appointment, and it was the wrong day.

I had to argue that he had made an appointment because I was flying out in a week and couldn't afford to come back.

It was all bullshit, he hadn't done any such thing, he looked up the address in the yellow pages.

They did give it tome,but they weren't happy,really shoved the needle in hard in an arm that had had the other two jabs an hour and a half ago.

Then I had to drive back, right hand drive, manual gearbox, meaning I had tochange gear with my left arm which was now throbbing like a bastard.

After a week of being on the shop I cut myself in the engine room and needed an anti tetanus.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

...so what the hell do you and others consider lethal?????????

It's lethal enough. But I was replying to maxdancona who claimed it wasn't "that lethal" so I wrote my response with him in mind.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

The spying done on Muslim mosques during the Patriot Act era was an affront to democratic values, and deeply damaging to minority communities.

"Democratic values" is a grab-all term with no single definition. Terrorist acts are an affront to "democratic values" as well. And what "damage" was done to minority communities by having undercover investigators in the mosque?

1 Reply

@hightor,

I am stating an opinion. It is a strong opinion, but I dont claim that my personal values represent anything factual.

That being said, many people in the Muslim-American community have expressed hurt and anger from these practices which they saw as attacks on their rights as Americans. That is a fact.

You have the right to disagree, but in my opinion this was shameful and harmful.

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@hightor,

This obsession with civil war deaths is silly. There are 1.8 million deaths in the US in a normal year. 670,000 deaths spread out over a few years would be pretty low for a civil war.

Of course in 1860, we had 1/10 the population that we have today. If the same percentage of people died now as died in the civil war... that would be 7 million people.

Comparing death tolls with some random historical event from 150 years ago is silly. There are now more deaths than the Hindenburg and the Titanic combined

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

Comparing death tolls with some random historical event from 150 years ago is silly.

"Silly" is not the adjective I'd apply to the comparison made by BillRM, and the ******* Civil War isn't "some random historical event from 150 years ago".

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@hightor,

The Civil War has absolutely nothing to do with the Covid Pandemic. It is just a silly trick to make the number 670,000 seem bigger than it really is.

The Civil war killed one out of 25 Americans. It was by far the geatest cause of death for that generation and impacted nearly every family.

Covid has killed 17 out of 10,000 Americans. It is not even the top cause of death (more Americans died of heart disease than covid, and more Americans doed os cancer).

Yes, 670,000 deaths is significant. But it doesn't have nearly the impact of the civil war deaths did. It is not even in the same ballpark.

This comparison is silly.

1 Reply

@4thtwin,

4thtwin wrote:

We all take some form of medication on a regular basis. I take trazadone each night to help me sleep. When we get hurt or have an ache or pain we all probably go grab Aleve, Advil, or Tylenol.

No - I do not take anything on a regular basis. I typically do not reach for an Aleve, Advil, or Tylenol - I usually tough it out unless it is anything extreme. I do not take any medicine- the only regular item I have is a once a month vitamin D.

And yes if a doctor does prescribe something I ask what it is for, what is in it and why I need it.

And yes, perhaps for some people losing a job is worth it. Everyone is different and everyone has different values. People quit working for fear of covid and now there are people quitting their jobs because of fear of a vaccine. I am not saying either is right or wrong just acknowledging that yes it is worth it to some people.

1 Reply

@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

People quit working for fear of covid and now there are people quitting their jobs because of fear of a vaccine. I am not saying either is right or wrong just acknowledging that yes it is worth it to some people.

I know of quite a few people who refuse, for one reason or another, to get the vaccine. They can do what they like - I don't care. I'm just glad I can go into restaurants and the like. Prior to the vaccine card, no one could go anywhere thanks to those who chose not to get with the program. Now, we're not being penalized; the recalcitrant are. Justice. There are, of course, undoubtedly some establishments who are flouting the restrictions, who are not asking to see cards and ID, etc., but that is not my worry. If they ask for the card and ID, I know they're following the mandates and I'm happy to give them my money. As as for privacy - bosh.

There's nothing on my card except my name, date of birth, gender and vaccination history. No health number (not that they could access any information with it anyway), no social insurance number, nothing. So, big deal. No concerns for me.

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@Mame,

The restaurants and their employees are the people who suffer the most with Ontario's vaccine proof scheme. They lose either way, if they enforce the vaccine scheme they lose customers who don't want to carry a credential (for any reason). If they don't appear to be enforcing the scheme they lose customers like Mame.

They logical way forward is for restaurants to fake it. They can pretend they are checking credentials, but seat the unvaccinated anyway. That way everyone is happy (even Mame). This involves basic trust that the government doesn't actually want to put struggling small businesses out of business.

There has been quite a bit of opposition to Ontario's policy. I suspect it won't last long.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

They can pretend they are checking credentials, but seat the unvaccinated anyway. That way everyone is happy (even Mame). This involves basic trust that the government doesn't actually want to put struggling small businesses out of business.

Lying to customers is you idea? Let see. is there a lawyer in the house, as off hand I think that at best it would be a civil tort and if someone could trace back a covid illness or even death a very costly one with a criminal charge added on.

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@BillRM,

You get angry customers either way. It really is a no win situation for restaurants.

Take a look at the articles in the Toronto Sun. Restaurants are not at all happy with this mandate.

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@BillRM,

There's no way this can be monitored in a significant way. When we go out, and we do, we just monitor ourselves. If someone's in there that's unvaccinated, and we assume it's 100% sure that there is (servers, kitchen help, etc), that's just the way it's going to be. It's no worse than last year prior to vaccines and lockdowns. We just aim to go to responsible restaurants at a non-busy time and wear our masks to-ing and fro-ing.

In Alberta, establishments (particularly those that offer seating) have the option of asking for vaccine cards and ID and having no other restrictions or not doing so but having seating/attendance restrictions. Those in the first category have a notice on their door. This advertises that they're following the guidelines and will be asking for proof of vaccination as well as alerts the non-vaxxed not to bother trying to enter. To my knowledge nobody has reported any conflicts to date. I have no idea what's going on in the rural areas - they're a law unto themselves.

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@Mame,

Quote:

In Alberta, establishments (particularly those that offer seating) have the option of asking for vaccine cards and ID

Would they allow you in without a vaccine card, if you had a doctors certificate showing that you do not, and never have, had the virus?

Not that the person in question would want to mix with the vaccinated, as it has been proven that the vaccinated can still, and have passed on the virus.

0 Replies

Is your personal beliefs or privacy worth losing your job over?

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