Is your personal beliefs or privacy worth losing your job over?

That's one way of looking at it. But I'd dispute it being characterized as a "scare tactic" – people demanded action and lawmakers responded. I don't agree that protecting public health is a political end; it's a civic responsibility.

I don't know what "civil rights" you're talking about. I'm talking about vaccination policy given the likelihood of future pandemics. When large numbers of citizens are in danger of falling ill to a contagious disease it would be very irresponsible for the government to simply allow the disease to run its course. Vaccination has been a component of public health around the world for decades. You claim to be a big supporter of vaccines and the wonderful corporations which produce them. Just allowing people to opt out serves no useful purpose.

I really doubt that I scared you, maxdancona. First thing, "scare tactics" aren't necessary when the public demands action. Secondly, having measures in place to react to disasters and emergencies is a long-standing function of government and people react angrily when the country is caught flat-footed with no plans for a response.

I love the claims of a civil right to spread a deadly disease. 700 thousands plus deaths and millions of ICU patients in less then two years or so seems enough for the government to act.

If the fools could limit the harm to themselves I would be cheering them on but that is not possible.

1. Privacy is a civil right. The protections given under HIPPA are civil rights. The right to make medical decisions, including the right to refuse medical care is a civil right.

2. Every civil right comes with risks. Data privacy laws mean pedophiles can remain hidden. Free Speech means white supremacists can recruit young members.

The ability for the authoritaries to tap your phone without a warrant would help them find terrorists. We run a risk by giving this civil right.

Certainly you have the right to determine what information is collected on you, how it’s stored, and what it’s used for.
That's why you sign the data protection paper at your doctor's.

It's one thing to choose not to have a particular operation. But when we encourage people to refuse to be vaccinated by making it some sort of libertarian badge of honor we make it difficult to control the spread of a contagious disease. It's not the same as foregoing a recommended hip replacement.

And when certain risks are seen as too dangerous, privacy concerns take a back seat to national security or public health. In the case of a vaccination program, in some situations it's necessary to know who's received the shot and who hasn't. It's hardly the same as having all one's financial data exposed or one's personal life publicly scrutinized.

What "risk" is that?

I think we agree on the important principle. There is a balance between public safety and individual rights. My most important argument is against absolutism; mainly the idea that right is right with no need for balance or to consider consequences.

I believe that people are exaggerating the risks of keeping vaccines voluntary (rather than mandatory). I think you disagree with me on this.

I reject the "what's the harm" argument. The same argument was made to justify spying on mosques during the Patriot Act era.

I work for an international corporation headquartered in Western Europe. The corporation stated emphatically that they would never mandate vaccines or request to know the vaccine status of employees.

My corporation has a strict covid policy that is enforced. This includes a staggered work schedule (the office is at half capacity), masking in public areas in the office, a travel ban, and contact tracing (we need to sign in and out).

But the CEO stated emphatically that vaccine mandates and demanding vaccine status were against corporate values and would not happen at this corporation.

The scuttlebutt is the European unions are blocking vaccine mandates... but I have no way of knowing if this is true.

It looks like in several Western European countries, vaccine mandates are considered unconstitutional.

To what European unions are you referring here? And how can they block it?

Any source for that?
I'm not sure, how and if our federal constitual court would decide about it, but Germany is a Central European country.

I am currently in an inner-office chat with a co-worker who just asked me if I had uploaded my vaccination card to the company. I told her yes, last week. Again, they're not asking for blood work or the results of my last colonoscopy. They just want to know I've had the shot. When I asked if she had uploaded her vax card her reply was, "I guess they are going to fire me, I will miss you." Are you serious? People would rather lose their jobs, a good paying job, than to just get a shot and remain employed, and insured. You lose your job and typically your medical benefits stop. Then on top of that, with the way things are going now given that most companies are now beginning to mandate the vaccine anywhere she goes they are going to ask for proof of said vaccination and when she can't produce that info her resume and application will most likely go in the trash.

I fully understand your personal beliefs but now you're putting your livelihood on the line.

As you mentioned before, Covid19, while highly contagious, is not as lethal as some viral infections. I think the principles of promoting and maintaining public health need to be adhered to so that, in the event of a more deadly disease, we're not starting from square one. I understand the objection to mandatory vaccination but there has to be a way of identifying who's vaccinated and who isn't.

What actual harm did that spying do? As far as I know, no terrorist plots were uncovered, nor were any Muslims prevented from practicing their religion. It was a special case. It simply wasn't known if there was a terrorism risk or not and, had there been a successful home-grown terrorist operation, the public would have demanded to know why it wasn't stopped. Further experience tended to show that the danger came from lone operators rather than terrorist cells within the Muslim community.

Exactly.

700 thousands deaths and counting more then the deaths from our civil war in half the time so what the hell do you and others consider lethal?????????

I disagree with your second point in the strongest way possible. The spying done on Muslim mosques during the Patriot Act era was an affront to democratic values, and deeply damaging to minority communities.

I don't know - there are plenty of jobs out there that are not requiring you to be vaccination - just for this reason that so many people are not doing so. With the job market the way it is --- places are so understaffed that even amazon is not requiring you to be vaccinated.

I do know people who refuse to get vaccinated and although they have had some difficulty, they all have gotten jobs they are satisfied with.

I, personally, am vaccinated and my company at first said it would not require you to be - they changed and now they are .... I know some people who work there that are on the fence on what to do. Some decided to yes go ahead with it as it now has been out there (in their opinion) long enough they are getting comfortable with the idea and others that still will not.

I do not judge them (as long as they are not saying crazy things) - it is serious putting something in your body - I can understand the hesitation there is so much information out there to shift through - I do not think most of these people refusing are doing so because they are selfish and do not care if they spread this to others - people I know in this situation will test if they have a cold and isolate until they know for sure; they are hesitate only because they are unsure how safe this vaccine is.

Imagine you want to have children one day - you are a young woman and there is a possibility this vaccine could cause an issue with this. You do not want to chance it. Same as people saying why chance the risk that you get covid? The worry for many is this vaccine was pushed so quickly (for good reason) - you are low risk and in some cases have already had covid and recovered. Why risk this ? So instead you test, wear a mask - it does not necessarily make all people against this - selfish.

Maybe that is this co-worker is feeling that way - or some other way. It must be some serious thought if like you said this person is going to forgo all this.

As far as medical benefits - not in the US you will be covered as it is available for the unemployed through the marketplace. That is what Obama put in place so everyone has insurance coverage.

When I joined a ship in Senegal I had to have jabs for yellow fever, cholera and typhoid.

What a day that was.

Link, I understand your point but just like there are so many people hesitant about putting something in your body you are not sure of. I don't think any of us are medical professionals, doctors, or working closely with the FDA or the CDC, but we all have to vaccinate our kids in order for them to go to school. They normally get these vaccines when they are babies and infants. Yes, there's always those parents who refuse but then are forced to either home school or trust the science in order for their kids to attend school. Again, we don't know what's in those vaccines but we trust them anyway. I'm just looking for any reported evidence of anyone who has taken either vaccine, J&J, Moderna, or Pfizer, that have died from it. Yes, I got the J&J shot and I was sick that night but that was just a 24 hour thing. I didn't die from it.

The difference being those vaccinations have been around for years.

I understand their hesitancy because when my kids were young it was suggested to me to get this vaccine for child, it was for some virus that made kids pretty sick - so I agreed. Shortly after getting the vaccine it was found that the side effects could be pretty bad - this was not known as the vaccination was just approved within the last few months.

So I learned after that to ask questions - whenever a vaccine was suggested like the HPV - the doctor informed me although it had not been widely used in the US it had been for a certain number of years in the UK so it did have a track record of what long term side effects are - so I could then make an educated decision.

This is just an excerpt from the CDC website
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

"Anaphylaxis after COVID-19 vaccination is rare and has occurred in approximately 2 to 5 people per million vaccinated in the United States. Severe allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, can occur after any vaccination. If this occurs, vaccination providers can effectively and immediately treat the reaction. Learn more about COVID-19 vaccines and allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis."

"Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 403 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through October 6, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 8,638 reports of death (0.0021%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause."

They also ask you to report any issues with this vaccine - not sure how many people have voluntarily agreed, but I know there is something you agree to when you get the shot - I did not simply I want to keep the government out of my life.

I agree these seem to be rare - I weighed my thoughts on the vaccine as I do with any sort of medical procedure - fortunately I have a doctor that shares with me pros and cons of any medical procedure. For example I opted out of getting a certain blood test (no adverse physical issues) but it provides lots of false positives so it seemed dumb to me to get it (was for whether your baby in womb is likely to have downs syndrome) but since the result would not change my decision on my child I opted out.

Just giving this is an example that I for one, like to be informed before I do anything or if anything is done to my child, I like to fully understand the pros and cons.

This stuff is so new - effects of covid, how you catch it, how to prevent it, how effective the vaccine - I think this is what is causing so many people to be hesitant on it. No reasonable person wants to put anyone else at risk of getting harmed in any way - but that includes themselves - to me the government pushing it so makes many people cautious - like being given a hard sell - why do you have to sell it so hard, if it is really that good.

To me a better tactic is to reward those for it - some companies are doing this - giving a monetary bonus for getting the vaccine - I was thought positive influence works best rather than punishing people for not adhering.

We all take some form of medication on a regular basis. I take trazadone each night to help me sleep. When we get hurt or have an ache or pain we all probably go grab Aleve, Advil, or Tylenol. Do any of us really know what's in it? Probably not. However those things have been around for years. I understand the hesitancy but is losing your job worth it over a simple "I don't know what's in it"?

Now my co-worker is saying she's got her 15 year old daughter to look after and support plus she's not married so it's just her. These are the things that need to be considered when deciding to stand on your morals and beliefs. If you're single and alone and have 6 months to a year's worth of savings in the back sure, by all means, do you. But most of us probably don't have 6 months to a year's worth of finances saved up to live off of that long. Sure, another job may come along but is it going to be enough to sustain you or keep you in the standings you were before?