27
   

Is your personal beliefs or privacy worth losing your job over?

 
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 08:41 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
) How many lives will be saved by a vaccine mandate? The facts that most people are choosing to be vaccinated voluntarily and that deaths are already falling rapidly without vaccine mandates are relevant.


So the tens of millions people who are refusing the vaccine and their minor family members are of no concern to us??

We should allow this source of infection to go undealt with fulling our medical care system and being an ongoing source for producing new versions of covid to come to be?
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 09:20 am
@BillRM,
Concern, Yes!
Hysterical panic, No!

Covid is a global pandemic. We both agree that it represents a serious public health crisis.

The question is whether we should force healthy people to accept a medical treatment against their will and to give employers access to at least one part of their normally private medical records.

There is a balance to be made. On one side are the benefits of a vaccine mandate. This is the reduction in illness and death from forced vaccination compared to voluntary vaccinations.

On the other side are the real social costs of forcing people to get a medical treatment they dont want and may be afraid of.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 10:28 am
@maxdancona,
So many hundreds of thousands of none needed early deaths should be allow to happen because fools fear the shots more then the disease instead of the other way around?

This disease is very costly to allow to go on with a price tag of many trillions of dollars to say nothing of the human suffering..

Quote:


https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/11/what-might-covid-cost-the-u-s-experts-eye-16-trillion/

pair of Harvard economists estimates that the coronavirus pandemic will cost the nation at least $16 trillion if it ends by next fall — timing they describe as “optimistic” — and say that a number that large justifies interventions such as a coordinated nationwide program of testing and contact tracing that would save 30 times its cost.

“It’s almost hard to understand what a number of that size means,” said David Cutler, the Otto Eckstein Professor of Applied Economics. “This is like a hurricane hitting the whole country.”

The calculations were done by Cutler and Lawrence Summers, the Charles W. Eliot University Professor and former U.S. Treasury secretary, and published in a recent issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association. Cutler said they embarked on the project in order to quantify just what is at stake economically as the pandemic grinds on and to evaluate the relative cost of interventions such as congressional bailout programs and public health steps like nationwide testing and contact tracing, which so far have not been implemented.

Cutler said the work lends numbers to what has been widely believed: that the coronavirus pandemic is among the greatest economic calamities in the nation’s modern history. The tally, Cutler said, is four times the damage done by 2008’s Great Recession, outstrips the amount spent on all the fighting — in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria — over the 19 years since 9/11, and, according to their analysis, “is the greatest threat to prosperity and well-being the U.S. has encountered since the Great Depression.”
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 10:29 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
to give employers access to at least one part of their normally private medical records.
In any case, this should only be possible in accordance with data protection laws.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 10:59 am
@BillRM,
I think you are greatly exaggerating the number of lives that would be saved by a vaccine mandate. Most covid dearhs occurred before the vaccine was available, and now the numbers are falling without a vaccine mandate.

You are arguing an extreme, that lives should be saved at all cost. This isn't how reality works.

Lowering the speed limit 5mph results in a 8.5% reduction in highway desths. That translates to thousands of lives saved.

By your logic, the speed limit should be 0mph?

We have to strike a balance between freedom and safety. Neither exteme makes sense. Sane policy lies in the middle.

maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 11:01 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Thank you Walter.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  4  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 11:42 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I think you are greatly exaggerating the number of lives that would be saved by a vaccine mandate. Most covid dearhs occurred before the vaccine was available, and now the numbers are falling without a vaccine mandate.

You are arguing an extreme, that lives should be saved at all cost. This isn't how reality works.

Lowering the speed limit 5mph results in a 8.5% reduction in highway desths. That translates to thousands of lives saved.

By your logic, the speed limit should be 0mph?

We have to strike a balance between freedom and safety. Neither exteme
makes sense. Sane policy lies in the middle.




I suggest we have to strike a balance between sanity and stupidity/insanity.

What lies in the middle there, Max?
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 12:10 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You are saying that sanity is one of the two extremes?

In that extremism would be sane and moderation would be insane. Maybe that explains political discourse in the US (and why Izzy says I am Hitler).

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 02:39 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You are saying that sanity is one of the two extremes?


As a continuum of the kind you suggested...it is. Your notion that "freedom and safety" are the extremes that have to meet in the middle.

Actually, I consider my suggestion to be bullshit...which I offered to counter your suggestion which I also consider to be bullshit.

Quote:
In that extremism would be sane and moderation would be insane. Maybe that explains political discourse in the US (and why Izzy says I am Hitler).


I honestly do not remember Izzy saying you are Hitler, but there are times when you seem to be suggesting a "middle" that is skewed toward the dynamics being offered by Hitler wanna-be's.

On the issue of "Is the Earth spherical?" or "Is the Earth flat?"...one does not have to meet in the middle. The notion of the Earth being flat is an absurdity.

And on the question of vaccinations...the "freedom" issue makes as much sense as it would be if applied to "traffic lights and stop signs."

My opinion, anyway, Max.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 02:46 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You are arguing an extreme, that lives should be saved at all cost. This isn't how reality works.

Reality doesn't "work". Systems work, reality simply exists.
Quote:
By your logic, the speed limit should be 0mph?

Really dumb point – speed implies movement, you know. The way it works in real life is that speed limits are only one way of maximizing highway safety. We have seat belt laws, air bags, rumble strips, traffic lights and signs, road surface and sight line improvement, night lighting, and patrol cars. All these work together to lower the likelihood of traffic accidents.

Quote:

We have to strike a balance between freedom and safety.

Why? We don't have pure, unlimited freedom, and what freedom we do enjoy doesn't imply an extended right to social irresponsibility. Getting a vaccination isn't an invasive medical procedure. Being hooked up to a ventilator with a bunch of tubes stuck in you for a week is an invasive medical procedure. Earlier you said that you might support mandatory vaccination were the disease more lethal. What makes you think that people would drop their objections, especially if they're allowed to weasel out of getting a Covid vaccination?

Quote:
Sane policy lies in the middle.

What if the threat to public health were extreme? No one knows what truly hideous diseases may emerge in our warming climate. It would make sense to prepare our population for public health crises and get people used to the idea of mass vaccination instead of feeding them this libertarian bullshit. Requiring vaccination is not "extreme" – coddling stupidity and centrism for centrism's sake is.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 04:57 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I am considering a new thread on the definition of extremism. My definition includes

1) pushing an ideological far beyond what the facts suggest. You can state that sea levels will raise as an objective face. If you argue that sea levels will rise 400 feet, you are going beyond what the science says (the pessimistic models are saying 10-15 feet).

2) presenting an ideological opinion as fact, and refusing to suggest that other opinions have merit.

The shape of the earth is an objective, testable fact.

The way to balance risk and freedom is a value judgement. There is no absolute truth... the speed limit was raised from 55 even though everyone knew it would cost lives.

Public policy involves making a balance between competing.values; such as medical provacy and full vaccination.

Extemism is denying that there is a real social cost to your position, and denying that perfectly reasonable people may make a different value judgement.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 05:12 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
What if the threat to public health were extreme? No one knows what truly hideous diseases may emerge in our warming climate.


This is the Patriot Act argument. It is a scare tactic to a political end.

They told us we had to gave up civil rights because we didnt know what hideous terrorist acts may emerge ...

You are using the same scare tactics.
ManOfTruth
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 07:21 pm
Harvard research confirms once-and-for-all the vaccine is worthless at stopping the spread…

I have no idea how this paper made it past the censors but there it is! This was published a month ago but didn’t receive much fanfare and now we know why—it confirms what we’ve been saying for months now: the vaccines have not stopped and likely will not stop the pandemic.

Back in July we tweeted that the CDC data mapping vax rates to COVID-19 case rates shows ZERO impact of the former on the latter:

Looks at this! I put together cases and vaccination data from the CDC. (Cases are per 100K left Y-axis | vaccinations are increasing % right Y-axis)

Cases drop by 75% or more for every age group BEFORE any group hits 20% vaccination. Something else is going on entirely here.

We’ve written in these pages multiple times about the same phenomenon. Yesterday, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya of Stanford tweeted:

“There is a lot to learn from this graph, but most obviously, the COVID vax does not stop infection. The vax provides a private benefit (protection vs. severe disease), but limited public benefit (protection vs. disease spread). So what is the argument for mandates?”

Now this Harvard research notes:

At the country-level, there appears to be no discernable relationship between percentage of population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases in the last 7 days (Fig. 1). In fact, the trend line suggests a marginally positive association such that countries with higher percentage of population fully vaccinated have higher COVID-19 cases per 1 million people.


When they got down to the U.S. county level the relation was even less discernible:


They conclude:

The sole reliance on vaccination as a primary strategy to mitigate COVID-19 and its adverse consequences needs to be re-examined, especially considering the Delta (B.1.617.2) variant and the likelihood of future variants

Feel some vindication folks. We were right.

https://covidreason.substack.com/p/harvard-research-confirms-what-weve
ManOfTruth
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 07:23 pm
Epic video showcases falling vaccine effectiveness rate and makes mincemeat out of Fauci… [YouTube]…

0 Replies
 
ManOfTruth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 09:40 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
This is the Patriot Act argument. It is a scare tactic to a political end.

They told us we had to gave up civil rights because we didnt know what hideous terrorist acts may emerge ...

You are using the same scare tactics.


maxdancona, you are 100% correct. And hightor is a mindless sheeple.

The reason that the government is using these tactics is to grab power. To take people's rights away and make them compliant through fear. Just look at Australia! That's where America is headed, where the police are beating people and pepper spraying old ladies to death for leaving their homes because of "safety concerns" related to "covid".

The main reason the U.S. government wants to use covid hysteria to take everyone's rights (and guns) away, is because they know that all social security programs will be bankrupt in the next 10 years. The people running the government (other than Biden and Harris) aren't dumb. They know that when the social security money runs out, people will revolt, and they'll probably do it French revolution style and murder the entire government.

That's why the government wants to enslave the people, so that they won't rise up and kill them.
ManOfTruth
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 09:42 pm
@ManOfTruth,
Quote:
Harvard research confirms once-and-for-all the vaccine is worthless at stopping the spread…


So now we know for sure that the vax fascists are wrong.

So everyone here pushing that nonsense can shut up.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 09:59 pm
@ManOfTruth,
ManofTruth, you might not have noticed I have been ignoring your posts. But now you have invoked my name, so I will say this.

Your posts are completely out of touch with reality to the point that they arent even worth arguing with. You are just spouting craziness that has nothing to do with reality.

I am interacting with Hightor because although I disagree with him on many issues politically, he generally accepts facts. In my opinion he pushes his opinions a little too far, but he isn't crazy. I certainly respect Hightor's intelligence.

Maybe if you start accepting basic facts, I will interact with you.

I am going to go back to not responding to ManofTruth's posts again now.
ManOfTruth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2021 10:26 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
you might not have noticed I have been ignoring your posts.


Patently false, because you responded and also mentioned an opinion about my posts. You couldn't have an opinion if you were ignoring them. So you're lying.

Doesn't change that I'm correct. Why do you think they kept the patriot act going long after it wasn't necessary?

Social security and all government welfare programs will be bankrupt in the next 10-15 years. America is on the verge of collapse. People WILL riot and murder the government if that happens. The people pulling the covid strings in order to take away the rights of Americans really, really don't want to be murdered.

So, when are you going to move all those Haitians into your home since you care about them so much?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2021 01:26 am
@Frank Apisa,
Max has problems understanding words.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2021 01:50 am
@Frank Apisa,
I would never say Max was Hitler, Hitler was guilty of all sorts but nobody ever called him a whiney little twit.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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