7
   

get on a train without paying the ticket

 
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2021 10:11 am
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

I repeat :

Any one can make up logic that fits their own personal values (or lack thereof) - but it does not mean such logic is well "logical".


You are arguing against a point that I did not make. I said nothing about logical. I myself choose how I will live. It doesn't have to be logical to myself or to anyone else.

My personal choice is to put my personal sense of morality over the law.

1. When something I consider to be "wrong" is legal. I don't do it because I consider it wrong.

2. When something I feel is is the right thing to do is illegal. I do it even though it is illegal because it is the right thing to do.

3. When something is illegal, and I think the law is stupid... I will decide whether to break the law based on how happy it makes me and what the consequences are.

If you would drive someone to an abortion provider in Texas, then you understand #2. If you speed when you are driving then you understand #3. There is no logic here; these are just personal choice on the type of life you want to live.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2021 10:20 am
Clamping down on fare evasion is bad public policy, we know what happens.

In Washington DC, 91% of people arrested for fare evasion are Black. In New York City only 7.3% of people arrested for fare evasion are White.

Now, we don't know the actual number of people who evade fares, but it isn't surprising. Rich people don't evade subway fares. If you are White middle class, you might take the base. You will will probably have a $5.50 Starbucks Iced Blonde roast latte in your hand as you pay your $5 rount trip fare. This money means nothing to you.

There is no question that when you start arresting people for fare evasion, it is African-Americans and Hispanic Americans who are targeted.

Arresting people for fare evasion is horrible policy. It hurts businesses, stifles economic activity and targets minority communities.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2021 11:29 am
Public Transportation should be like NPR.

I listen to NPR quite a bit. Every year I send them a few hundred dollars. I do this because I have the money and I feel I should pay my share for a service I use. And NPR provides a service that I believe is good for the country at large. It doesn't hurt me that there are people who listen to NPR without paying, and if they don't feel they have the money I am not going to judge them for not giving.

I certainly don't want people to be arrested for listening to NPR without paying.

Public transportation has similarities. It provides a public good. It doesn't cost anything more for another person to get onto a bus without paying.

If you are making $60,000 a year, paying for transportation will be easy for you. Maybe in this case, not paying for the bus (or the radio) is asinine.

But for someone making minimum wage, public transportation is not an option. Paying $40 a week for bus fare could make the difference in someone's ability to pay rent or buy food.





0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2021 11:59 am
Here in Canada, no one gets arrested. We have transit cops that check for tickets but in all the times I've used the train, I've only seen one cop. It's a $35 ticket, similar to what parkers pay when they don't pay the meter or it's expired. We also have a free zone in my city.

We have a large indigenous population here, plus a lot of homeless. They never get ticketed because everyone knows they don't have any money. I think the City instructed the transit cops to turn a blind eye. Fining them won't get them anywhere and homelessness is a societal issue. The transit cops leave them alone unless they're drunk or disorderly. It's sort of a tacit agreement. Same goes for other city services, like the library. If they had fines, we'd waive them and allow them to use all the library services, but they weren't allowed to borrow items any more.

Someone has to pay for all these things and I am a fan of user-pay. If I travel a road which has tolls, I pay. The road won't know there's one more car on it, but there is upkeep. Likewise, if I use transit, I pay. I can opt out and travel another way. I can use Car2Go, or those scooters they have now, or the rent-a-bike things, hitchhike, or use another method. Also, there are reduced fares for seniors and low-income families. I've never looked into it, but likely the homeless get a free pass.

What I am NOT a fan of are parking meters and limited parking. I understand why they're there, but I'm really against limited parking. If you're at the doctor's and the wait is unusually long, you have to go out and move your car to another street. It's not your fault, you're not at work... but if you don't move it, ka-ching $35.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2021 12:29 pm
@Mame,
Here in Germany, no one gets arrested, too.
You pay an "increased transport charge" (60 euros) as an independent claim under civil law, if you are caught during checks. (Checks are carried out by inspectors of the respective bus/train companies, sometimes also by the federal police who's our railway police.)
In Germany, depending on the transport association, the proportion of fare evaders is estimated at between 0.6% and six percent.

However, there is also a penalty for multiple non-payment: across Germany, about 7,000 of 230,000 reported fare evaders recently served a substitute custodial sentence.


A couple of European towns offer free public transport within a municipality resp. a district, either on weekends or even all year. Others offer it for certain groups or residents get a flat-rate.
Luxembourg is the only country to have a totally free transport on buses, trams and trains for everyone, not only citizens/residents.

Incidentally, all people in Germany are entitled to free transport if they have been recognised by the competent authority as having a severe disability: a severely disabled person's ID card with a corresponding stamp also serves as a ticket for buses, trams, trains. (This includes travels to nearby foreign stations.)


0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2021 12:42 pm
@Mame,
Quote:
Also, there are reduced fares for seniors and low-income families. I've never looked into it, but likely the homeless get a free pass.


Same here - also reduced fares for students - basically anyone who cannot afford it.

The thing is too - if you really needed to get on the train or subway you would find someone to pay for you. I have bought a pass to get on the subway for homeless or others before. And you could even get a kind T worker to let you in. I even had one when the train was coming and I needed to add more money on my pass - the worker just waved me in.

Most are actually very considerate - and to be honest it is unlikely you would get arrested or if so, it would be due to a greater issue.
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2021 12:47 pm
@maxdancona,
If we want to take Climate Change seriously, we need to dramatically raise the price of driving and lower the price of public transportation. Of course, improving public transportation is a part of that.

If you don't think that public transportation is the best way to get around, then public policy is failing.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2021 12:51 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:
Same here - also reduced fares for students - basically anyone who cannot afford it.
I think that you can get reduced fares everywhere.
College/university students pay nothing for public transport statewide here - the costs for a "semesterticket" are part of the university semester fee and must therefore be purchased upon enrolment or re-registration.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2021 12:55 pm
@Linkat,
The homeless get free passes - I just checked. Since 1999. Youths aged 6 - 17 are about $1.00 cheaper, kids under 5 are free. Just found out you can take a leashed dog, too. I've only taken it to go to the main library for courses and to football games and the Stampede. No one wants to park in those areas.

I only drive between 2K - 3K km a year anyway, so I'm not contributing to too much of the climate problem. Less now that I'm retired and even less during the pandemic. In the 7 years I've owned this car, I've put on 19K km which is the average number for most people in one year. Crazy.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2021 12:59 pm
If things are so great...

Then why are so many people (mostly minorities) arrested for fare evasion?

There is a basic contradiction here.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2021 01:19 pm
There are thousands of videos of arrests for fare evasions. This one is from Toronto in 2020 (chosen because Canada is supposed to be nice).

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2021 03:04 pm
I am the only person taking a politically liberal stance on this issue. I find that odd; I am often (incorrectly) called a conservative. Here is the ACLU page on the issue from Washington DC. They agree with me.

"Law and Order" is traditionally a conservative value. Then again, free speech used to be a liberal value. Go figure.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2021 04:20 am
Yesterday, the Austrian federal states have agreed on a joint transport ticket, valid on all buses and trains in the country. The ticket will make commuting up to 60 per cent cheaper.

This 'climate ticket' will cost 1095 euros for one year - three euros a day.
The annual ticket is primarily intended to make it easier for commuters to switch from the car as their main means of transport to buses and trains. Ticket holders can use all means of public transport at no extra charge, including long-distance trains.
A family climate ticket costs 1205 euros (valid for one adult and up to four children). Discounts are available for senior citizens, people with disabilities and anyone under the age of 26. Those who still book in October will receive further discounts.

In addition, in individual federal states (like Vienna or Lower Austria), significantly cheaper tickets are offered that are only valid for the respective federal state.



0 Replies
 
 

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