3
   

Israel ‘accelerating’ Iran strike plans

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 10 Sep, 2021 02:48 am
@vikorr,
I’m not trying to take offence, it seems like you’re trying to do something other than constantly argue with Oralloy. You’d have been better off picking a subject you know something about.

I don’t think any country should have nukes, and as such the world should do its best to stop the spread of nukes full stop.

Religion is not the only source of hatred and division, North Korea is hardly a theocracy but it is a clear and present danger.

I remember your Islamophobia of old, where you accept that all other religions can have degrees of fervour but all Muslims are extremists. And I get the feeling that when you say religious you mean Muslim.
vikorr
 
  1  
Fri 10 Sep, 2021 02:55 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
In the end the only consistent, legitimate opponent of American imperialism is Islamic fundamentalism.
Russia, China
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Fri 10 Sep, 2021 03:13 am
@izzythepush,
I don't think you understand where I come from. I perceive religion as an ideology - just much more organised than other ideologies like nationalism, patriotism, capitalism etc. Ideologies create issues when they trigger intolerances or create views of others as less than human (often related to the more extreme views of the ideology) - so I agree religions aren't the only source of danger. I also do not perceive ideology to be a person. And I perceive any ideology itself to be open for critique.

In relation to the Quran, as it is not stories, but claimed to be the direct revelations of God through the Angel Gabriel to Mohammed - I read multiple chapters into it...I am horrified at the sheer number of intolerant versus in in it. This hasn't changed. Same in somewhat different ways, goes for the intolerant stories in the Bible (allegedly God sending a she-bear to rip 42 children to shreds for calling a prophet an old baldy comes to mind - this incident is pure evil to my way of thinking, but there are plenty of others)

Most ideologies do have a good side to them. The major religions all have multiple good sides to them (that includes Islam). But all ideologies also have their downsides, and the more an ideology indoctrinates its followers, the greater the downside from my point of view - the lack of questioning leads to many other problems / behaviours. Lack of questioning has way too many negatives, and usually ends up with someone trying to force their views onto others. For example, lack of questioning was particularly noticable with the loose ideology that is patriotism in the lead up to the Iraq war, and the group self censorship and intolerance that came with it. People who questioned would have realised how many times the US government drastically changed its 'justification' before it hit on 'weapons of mass distruction'......or realised that if a modern computerised army can't account for its inventory, then Saddam had no chance of doing the same...

For all ideologies, I dislike:
- the lack of questioning
- indoctrination
- self censorship
- adherents attempting to force their view onto others
- any forms of intolerance
The greater the % of the above, the more people should be against those aspects of the ideology.

Quote:
here you accept that all other religions can have degrees of fervour but all Muslims are extremists.
I think you are remembering 'this' through filters. I said many, many times the percentage was small, but still too large.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 10 Sep, 2021 03:33 am
@vikorr,
Also Australia’s participation in the Vietnamese genocide.

I notice you don’t mention that.

Unfettered capitalism is as much an ideology as anything else.
vikorr
 
  1  
Fri 10 Sep, 2021 03:44 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Also Australia’s participation in the Vietnamese genocide.

I notice you don’t mention that.

Ummm wow. It is quite unreasonable to expect that in a short discussion a person would cover every possible example to your satisfaction. But as it happens, in these forums I've also criticised:
- Australias handling of the East Timorese 'idependence'
- Australia standing by while a genocide is committed is West Papua (and somehow making disappear 20 West Papuan chiefs who landed on our shores seeking assylum)
- Australias involvement in numerous US wars
- it's support for the propaganda of the US in the leadup to US wars
etc

But yes, the domino theory is a perfect example of ideology creating intolerance (extreme in Vietnams case)
Quote:
Unfettered capitalism is as much an ideology as anything else.
I mentioned capitalism as ideology in this conversation, and mentioned that the extreme forms of any ideology creates issues....so I don't know why you mention this in such a manner
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 10 Sep, 2021 03:51 am
@vikorr,
I have seen precious little in your posts condemning the West’s actions.

The only exception being when you argue against Oralloy’s extremism, but that’s not hard.

I get the feeling that while you claim to oppose ideology you seem to think that some ideologies are better than others.

The ideology that inflicted the Shah on Iran and exterminated thousands of Vietnamese is somehow more benign than that which caused planes to crash into the two towers.

I don’t think that white ideologies and religions are inherently superior to those of darker skinned people, and none of your posts have convinced me that you feel the same.
vikorr
 
  1  
Fri 10 Sep, 2021 04:12 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I have seen precious little in your posts condemning the West’s actions.
Then either you are not on the threads where I criticise such, or only reading what you want to. I don't know which it is.

Quote:
I don’t think that white ideologies and religions are inherently superior to those of darker skinned people, and none of your posts have convinced me that you feel the same.
Superior? Every single one has different strengths, and different flaws. The strengths of western ideologies have been discussed to death. The flaws include many of the things I previously mentioned - percentagewise:
- don't tend to see other peoples as truly human (wars are very difficult to justify to yourself when you understand just how human others other, and what the human affect is...while at the sime time knowing that occassionally, it is unavoidable)
- questioning what is told to them is told to them (this is same for all people, just the percentages differ)
- encourage people not to live by principles
- encourage people to be self serving
- encourage people to feel entitled
- encourage people to disempower themselves (by giving away problem solving, not learning to manage conflict etc)
- contributes to the growing mental health crisis (particularly anxiety)
- etc (the above are just off the top of my head, so likely missing many other flaws)

Mind you - many of those, and the reasons I came to such conclusions, are dicussion in themselves. Because of that - most of those type of discussions Ive had, are verbal. It is way to easy to misinterpret / not understand the above when just written.

Same goes for my mothers heritage - there are strengths and weaknesses. I consider her raising superior to what I've seen of western people (not sure about particular European groups), and very unfortunately, tribal cultures are prone to corruption from the massive amounts of money that corporate cultures can produce (because family comes first in tribal cultures, that can be exploited). As I said - all have their strengths and weaknesses.

I think perhaps you confuse threads discussing specific issues...as being the view of the whole. I don't see things that way. Specifics can be discussed without it being a belief about the whole - and because of that, the whole shouldn't have to be constantly qualified.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Fri 10 Sep, 2021 04:31 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
you seem to think that some ideologies are better than others.
Just considered your use of 'superior' a little more:

- I think some ideologies have more negative downsides than others. I doubt you would disagree that white supremacism has more downside than others, so I doubt you disagree with that all ideologies come with differing degrees of downside. If downside differs, so does upside.

- Superior is different though, being first a measurement of upside vs downside of the individual ideology, and then a comparison of same with some other ideology.

They don't need to be compared, other than to make sure you are applying the same tests/principles evenly (the ones that form your individual views on each ideology). I'm not sure why everything like this needs to be a competition. Perhaps that is just one other reason why you feel the way you do about how I write.


izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 10 Sep, 2021 04:55 am
@vikorr,
I’m not trying to be confrontational, but a lot of what you say sounds like watered down imperialism, the same arguments that were used to “civilise” the poor benighted peoples of Africa and the South Pacific.

vikorr
 
  1  
Fri 10 Sep, 2021 05:00 am
@izzythepush,
If you don't make it a competition, it can't be superior, and then 'superiority' doesn't become an justification for 'civilising' others....so I'm not sure how you come to your conclusion.
0 Replies
 
goldberg
 
  0  
Fri 10 Sep, 2021 06:52 pm
Iran is a thuggish nation. Muhammad Mossadeq wanted to nationalise the Anglo-Iranian oil company. That's why CIA had to step in and help Britain rid Mossadeq. it was a right move.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Fri 10 Sep, 2021 08:30 pm
@goldberg,
Iran is in good company then, surrounded by thuggish, asshole nations.
goldberg
 
  0  
Sat 11 Sep, 2021 09:41 pm
@InfraBlue,
I don't want to hide the fact that I side with Israel. You know Iran also wants to push Israel out of that region just like Palestine and Lebanon.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Sat 11 Sep, 2021 11:46 pm
@goldberg,
So, you're picking which thuggish, asshole nation among them to side with, understood.
goldberg
 
  0  
Sun 12 Sep, 2021 07:29 pm
@InfraBlue,
On the contrary, Israel is the only democratic nation in the Middle East, whereas other Muslim nations still want to use religious dogma to infantilise their people. Some Muslim militants even want to vanquish non-Muslim people and annex their territories. Time magazine once published an article saying The Taliban want to control all the places overrun by Muslim believers in Asia. Some journalists have also written books about Saudi Arabia's ambitions, say, it's dotty about the plan to build more mosques worldwide. Iran is no exception; it has been providing dosh and military aid to terrorist organization hating America and its ally Israel. Qatar is in cahoots with Turkey; Turkey even has a military base in Qatar. In return, Qatar helps Turkey revitalize its stagnant economy with cash infusions. And the UAE is also a free rider; it even wants to curry favor with the Taliban, in spite of its professed hatred against pugnacious jihadists.

In my book, the suggestion that the Middle East only belongs to Muslim people or Aisa needs a Muslim kingdom is a palatable one for all the Muslim nations. They are still biding their time.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Mon 13 Sep, 2021 07:29 am
DUBAI, Sept 12 (Reuters) - Iran is to allow the U.N. nuclear watchdog to service monitoring cameras at Iranian nuclear sites after talks on Sunday with IAEA head Rafael Grossi, according to the head of Iran's atomic energy body and a joint statement.

The talks with International Atomic Energy Agency chief Grossi were aimed at easing a standoff between Tehran and the West just as it threatens to escalate and scupper negotiations on reviving the Iran nuclear deal.
https://www.msn.com/en-xl/middleeast/top-stories/iran-to-allow-iaea-to-service-nuclear-monitoring-cameras-after-talks/ar-AAOlZjC?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&fbclid=IwAR1s1_Oev0_FTKB94_0XC19beGqpTi_YtqPnSXmujxNnOU53xax8cIR4VgY
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Mon 13 Sep, 2021 03:05 pm
@goldberg,
Democracy does not preclude a nation from being thuggish and an asshole, especially when its existence is predicated on the oppression of an entire people.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Mon 13 Sep, 2021 03:17 pm
@edgarblythe,
I wonder if, "the West," includes the US.
0 Replies
 
goldberg
 
  0  
Mon 13 Sep, 2021 06:10 pm
@InfraBlue,
Let me tell you some facts about the thuggish Iran: it started sending a shipment of arms to Gaza in 2002; Israeli naval forces raided a ship and captured a shipment of M-302 rockets from Iran destined to Palestinian militants in Gaza; Iran used drones to attack Saudi Arabia's oil fields; and it tried to work with North Korea to produce nuclear weapons in the Middle East, according to the New Yorker.

The Palestinians even use kids as a human shield to attack Israel's soldiers. Its former leader Arafat was one of the richest men in the Middle East when he was still alive, according to Forbes, alas, just like Putin, who is said to be one of the richest men on earth.

InfraBlue
 
  2  
Wed 15 Sep, 2021 09:47 pm
@goldberg,
These are red herrings that do not negate the fact that Israel is a thuggish, asshole nation.
0 Replies
 
 

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