1
   

Finest army in the world?

 
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 05:32 am
wolf wrote:
The US military is really out of touch with basic human decency. Listen to this report of a group of Israeli journalists and how they were treated by a certain major Shaw:

(starts 14:20)


I'm REAL tired of blanket statements like this. The frikkin' military is made up of a buncha people not unlike anyone else - no more or less good or evil. If you think they become hardened baby killers when they don that uniform, you're demented. They put it on for a hundred different reasons. When politicians start wars, the soldiers job is to go fight them. Much as you would probably still keep your job if your corporation's bosses were found to be trafficking in slave labor, or operating under an Apartheid regime, or had abusive managers. What do you suggest all these soldiers do? Go AWOL? Walk off their jobs? No they simply pick up a weapon and do their job the best they know how. And I am thoroughly goddamn tired of geniuses calling them all somehow morally deficient. You don't know that, and should not be saying that.
0 Replies
 
pueo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 05:40 am
snood wrote:
wolf wrote:
The US military is really out of touch with basic human decency. Listen to this report of a group of Israeli journalists and how they were treated by a certain major Shaw:

(starts 14:20)


I'm REAL tired of blanket statements like this. The frikkin' military is made up of a buncha people not unlike anyone else - no more or less good or evil. If you think they become hardened baby killers when they don that uniform, you're demented. They put it on for a hundred different reasons. When politicians start wars, the soldiers job is to go fight them. Much as you would probably still keep your job if your corporation's bosses were found to be trafficking in slave labor, or operating under an Apartheid regime, or had abusive managers. What do you suggest all these soldiers do? Go AWOL? Walk off their jobs? No they simply pick up a weapon and do their job the best they know how. And I am thoroughly goddamn tired of geniuses calling them all somehow morally deficient. You don't know that, and should not be saying that.



agree.
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:11 pm
About group of Israeli journalists: they were treated in the way they deserved. Dan Semama et al. did not have any proper accreditation documents when they entered the area where the Allied Force operated. Their compatriots that have such documents do not experience any problems in their relations with the U.S. and UK military, and I watch their reports on the Israeli TV every day when I can get an access to the TV set in proper time (last two weeks I spent in the IDF, and I was sometimes busy at the news hour). Caroline Glick from "Jerusalem Post", Itay Engel from the TV2 have no complaints, they are satisfied with treatment they get from the military commanders; Aaron Barnea from TV2 covers the war from Washington DC, and he manages to interview people from DoD, State Department and Administration.
It is a war, and it has rules of its own. Unfortunately, Mr. Semama did not realize this (it is very unusual for an indigenous Israeli, majority of which spend at least 3 years in the military, and later have active reserve service every year). I saw Semama's report about the problem on TV1, it was ridiculous. Sometimes it happens, when people having forgotten their own army service (or having never been soldiers) start dealing with military-related topics...
0 Replies
 
owi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:21 pm
Where those journalists in the United States of America or United Kingdom...I don't think so. So who legitmates the Unites States Army to throw out those people?
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:28 pm
Journalist needs a special accreditation to be present in certain military-related areas, and this does not depend on his/her citizenship.
0 Replies
 
owi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:31 pm
Why do they "need" this, is there a law?
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:34 pm
That is a mere security precaution. The civilian that collects information in the military area may be a reporter; but, from the other side, this may be an enemy's spy. People that got accreditation managed to prove that they were not the latter.
I am sorry, Owi, have you ever been a soldier?
0 Replies
 
owi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:46 pm
steissd wrote:
I am sorry, Owi, have you ever been a soldier?

No I'm not able to be a soldier.

If I go to Iraq, why should I ask the US/British Army for permission? Is there any international law that forces me to ask the US/British Army? I can't remember such a law.
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:59 pm
OK, Owi, you may go to Iraq. But as a result you should take into consideration a possible mistreatment by either Allied or Iraqi military. A foreign civilian that appears in the battle areas without appropriate credentials naturally causes suspicions. And pray to God to be caught by the Americans/Britons/Aussies: in the worst case they may arrest you and investigate, and later, when it is proven that you are not a spy, just to deport from the restricted area; Iraqis may just execute you without any "due process".
I am a former professional soldier of the Soviet Army, and I know well what am I talking about.
0 Replies
 
owi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:03 pm
Well,I did not say, that I don't have to ask for permission of the Iraq.
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:10 pm
You need not. But if you are caught by the Republican Guards you may strongly regret...
0 Replies
 
wolf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 05:43 pm
War for stinking oil creates horror.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2515.htm
'I saw the heads of my two little girls come off'

April 2 2003, 11:38 AM


An Iraqi mother in a van fired on by US soldiers says she saw her two young daughters decapitated in the incident that also killed her son and eight other members of her family.


The children's father, who was also in the van, said US soldiers fired on them as they fled towards a checkpoint because they thought a leaflet dropped by US helicopters told them to "be safe", and they believed that meant getting out of their village to Karbala.

Bakhat Hassan - who lost his daughters, aged two and five, his three-year-old son, his parents, two older brothers, their wives and two nieces aged 12 and 15, in the incident - said US soldiers at an earlier checkpoint had waved them through.

As they approached another checkpoint 40km south of Karbala, they waved again at the American soldiers.

"We were thinking these Americans want us to be safe," Hassan said through an Army translator at a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital set up at a vast Army support camp near Najaf.


The soldiers didn't wave back. They fired.

"I saw the heads of my two little girls come off," Hassan's heavily pregnant wife, Lamea, 36, said numbly.

She repeated herself in a flat, even voice: "My girls - I watched their heads come off their bodies. My son is dead."

US officials originally gave the death toll from the incident as seven, but reporters at the scene placed it at 10. And Bakhat Hassan terrible toll was 11 members of his family.

Hassan's father died at the Army hospital later.


US officials said the soldiers at an Army checkpoint who opened fire were following orders not to let vehicles approach checkpoints.

On Saturday, a suicide bomber had killed four US soldiers outside Najaf.

Details emerging from interviews with survivors of yesterday's incident tell a distressing tale of a family fleeing towards what they thought would be safety, tragically misunderstanding instructions.


Hassan's father, in his 60s, wore his best clothes for the trip through the American lines: a pinstriped suit.

"To look American," Hassan said.

An Army report written last night cited "a miscommunication with civilians" as the cause of the incident.


Hassan, his wife and another of his brothers are in intensive care at the MASH unit.

Another brother, sister-in-law and a seven-year-old child were released to bury the dead.

The Shi'ite family of 17 was packed into a 1974 Land Rover, so crowded that Bakhat, 35, was outside on the rear bumper hanging on to the back door.

Everyone else was piled on one another's laps in three sets of seats.

They were fleeing their farm town southeast of Karbala, where US attack helicopters had fired missiles and rockets the day before.

Helicopters also had dropped leaflets on the town: a drawing of a family sitting at a table eating and smiling with a message written in Arabic.

Sergeant 1st Class Stephen Furbush, an Army intelligence analyst, said the message read: "To be safe, stay put."

But Hassan said he and his father thought it just said: "Be safe".

To them, that meant getting away from the helicopters firing rockets and missiles.

His father drove. They planned to go to Karbala. They stopped at an Army checkpoint on the northbound road near Sahara, about 40km south of Karbala, and were told to go on, Hassan said.

But "the Iraqi family misunderstood" what the soldiers were saying, Furbush said.

A few kilometres later, a Bradley Fighting Vehicle came into view. The family waved as it came closer. The soldiers opened fire.

Hassan remembers an Army medic at the scene of the killings speaking Arabic.

"He told us it was a mistake and the soldiers were sorry," Hassan said.

"They believed it was a van of suicide bombers," Furbush said.

Hassan, his wife, his father and a brother were airlifted to the MASH unit.

Three doctors and three nurses worked on the father for four hours but he died despite their efforts.

Today, Hassan and his wife remain at the unit. He has staples in his head. She has a mangled hand and shrapnel in her face and shoulder.

Major Scott McDannold, an anaesthesiologist, said Hassan's brother, lying nearby, wouldn't make it. He is on a respirator with a broken neck.


On March 16, Hassan and his family began to harvest tomatoes, cucumbers, scallions and eggplant. It was a healthy crop, and they expected a good year.

"We had hope," he said. "But then you Americans came to bring us democracy and our hope ended."

Lamea is nine months pregnant.

"It would be better not to have the baby," she said.

"Our lives are over."
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 06:57 pm
Re: War for stinking oil creates horror.
wolf wrote:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2515.htm
'I saw the heads of my two little girls come off'

April 2 2003, 11:38 AM


An Iraqi mother in a van fired on by US soldiers says she saw her two young daughters decapitated in the incident that also killed her son and eight other members of her family.


The children's father, who was also in the van, said US soldiers fired on them as they fled towards a checkpoint because they thought a leaflet dropped by US helicopters told them to "be safe", and they believed that meant getting out of their village to Karbala.

Bakhat Hassan - who lost his daughters, aged two and five, his three-year-old son, his parents, two older brothers, their wives and two nieces aged 12 and 15, in the incident - said US soldiers at an earlier checkpoint had waved them through.

As they approached another checkpoint 40km south of Karbala, they waved again at the American soldiers.

"We were thinking these Americans want us to be safe," Hassan said through an Army translator at a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital set up at a vast Army support camp near Najaf.


The soldiers didn't wave back. They fired.

"I saw the heads of my two little girls come off," Hassan's heavily pregnant wife, Lamea, 36, said numbly.

She repeated herself in a flat, even voice: "My girls - I watched their heads come off their bodies. My son is dead."

US officials originally gave the death toll from the incident as seven, but reporters at the scene placed it at 10. And Bakhat Hassan terrible toll was 11 members of his family.

Hassan's father died at the Army hospital later.


US officials said the soldiers at an Army checkpoint who opened fire were following orders not to let vehicles approach checkpoints.

On Saturday, a suicide bomber had killed four US soldiers outside Najaf.

Details emerging from interviews with survivors of yesterday's incident tell a distressing tale of a family fleeing towards what they thought would be safety, tragically misunderstanding instructions.


Hassan's father, in his 60s, wore his best clothes for the trip through the American lines: a pinstriped suit.

"To look American," Hassan said.

An Army report written last night cited "a miscommunication with civilians" as the cause of the incident.


Hassan, his wife and another of his brothers are in intensive care at the MASH unit.

Another brother, sister-in-law and a seven-year-old child were released to bury the dead.

The Shi'ite family of 17 was packed into a 1974 Land Rover, so crowded that Bakhat, 35, was outside on the rear bumper hanging on to the back door.

Everyone else was piled on one another's laps in three sets of seats.

They were fleeing their farm town southeast of Karbala, where US attack helicopters had fired missiles and rockets the day before.

Helicopters also had dropped leaflets on the town: a drawing of a family sitting at a table eating and smiling with a message written in Arabic.

Sergeant 1st Class Stephen Furbush, an Army intelligence analyst, said the message read: "To be safe, stay put."

But Hassan said he and his father thought it just said: "Be safe".

To them, that meant getting away from the helicopters firing rockets and missiles.

His father drove. They planned to go to Karbala. They stopped at an Army checkpoint on the northbound road near Sahara, about 40km south of Karbala, and were told to go on, Hassan said.

But "the Iraqi family misunderstood" what the soldiers were saying, Furbush said.

A few kilometres later, a Bradley Fighting Vehicle came into view. The family waved as it came closer. The soldiers opened fire.

Hassan remembers an Army medic at the scene of the killings speaking Arabic.

"He told us it was a mistake and the soldiers were sorry," Hassan said.

"They believed it was a van of suicide bombers," Furbush said.

Hassan, his wife, his father and a brother were airlifted to the MASH unit.

Three doctors and three nurses worked on the father for four hours but he died despite their efforts.

Today, Hassan and his wife remain at the unit. He has staples in his head. She has a mangled hand and shrapnel in her face and shoulder.

Major Scott McDannold, an anaesthesiologist, said Hassan's brother, lying nearby, wouldn't make it. He is on a respirator with a broken neck.


On March 16, Hassan and his family began to harvest tomatoes, cucumbers, scallions and eggplant. It was a healthy crop, and they expected a good year.

"We had hope," he said. "But then you Americans came to bring us democracy and our hope ended."

Lamea is nine months pregnant.

"It would be better not to have the baby," she said.

"Our lives are over."


What's your point, wolf? That war creates atrocities? Duh. Just don't attach any horns and tail to US soldiers in general - that's bogus.
0 Replies
 
yorkshire
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 09:11 pm
Well as a brit, and without wishing to offend anyone here, I have to say my opinion of the American army is pretty low right now. The A-10 incident just takes the p**s really. The commander of the tank said he had been trained to recognise every military vehicle used by the US army from every conceivable angle-do the US boys go through similar training? It certainly doesn't seem like it.

The deaths at checkpoints are another thing-a british soldier, Lee Clegg, is currently serving(or has served) a 7 year sentence for shooting dead a civilian at a checkpoint in Northern Ireland when their car failed to stop. Compare and contrast with the US which has threated to invade the Netherlands if any of its troops are ever held accountable for their actions. Such threats must breed a certain attitude among the troops. It is no surprise that the brits have the job of securing population centres in the south, given the extensive experience they have in Ireland.

An SAS man was quoted in last years afghan war(which is of course still continuing) as saying that british special forces could perform missions for months in the mountains carrying just a nan bread and a machete. US Delta forces, on the other hand, wanted to build a Burger King before they left their camps.

There is a saying about the american army-all the gear, no idea.
0 Replies
 
pueo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Apr, 2003 05:08 am
yorkshire wrote:

An SAS man was quoted in last years afghan war(which is of course still continuing) as saying that british special forces could perform missions for months in the mountains carrying just a nan bread and a machete. US Delta forces, on the other hand, wanted to build a Burger King before they left their camps.


having done some things with both, i would say that while the sas is an outstanding oufit, the missions for months on just a nan bread and a machete is taking it too far. the sas had they're own little quirks as well. the delta force <sigh> i really don't know what they're doing, and i don't think they know either. mind you, i'm talking from a late 70's mid 80's perspective.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Apr, 2003 07:24 am
Yorkshire wrote: "Compare and contrast with the US which has threated to invade the Netherlands if any of its troops are ever held accountable for their actions."

Welcome, Yorkshire - can you tell me more about about what this?
0 Replies
 
 

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