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"Constitutional Democracy"

 
 
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 12:37 pm
I watched President Bush's nomination speech last night. I listened as the Supreme Court nominee, John G. Roberts, spoke. He referred to the United States as a "constitutional democracy."

Quote:
“Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you.

“Thank you very much. It is both an honor and very humbling to be nominated to serve on the Supreme Court. Before I became a judge, my law practice consisted largely of arguing cases before the court. That experience left me with a profound appreciation for the role of the court in our constitutional democracy and a deep regard for the court as an institution.

“I always got a lump in my throat whenever I walked up those marble steps to argue a case before the court, and I don’t think it was just from the nerves.

“I am very grateful for the confidence the president has shown in nominating me, and I look forward to the next step in the process before the United States Senate.

“It’s also appropriate for me to acknowledge that I would not be standing here today if it were not for the sacrifice and help of my parents, Jack and Rosemary Roberts; my three sisters, Kathy, Peggy and Barbara; and of course my wife, Jane.

“And I also want to acknowledge my children — my daughter, Josie, my son, Jack — who remind me every day why it’s so important for us to work to preserve the institutions of our democracy.

“Thank you again very much.”



Source

Excuse me?

Roberts is nominated to sit on the highest court in the land and he doesn't understand that ours is NOT a constitutional democracy but rather a constitutional republic?

Do you know the difference?

This is disturbing given the fact that Roberts is only 50 years old and could very well sit on the bench for several decades.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 4,972 • Replies: 64
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 01:03 pm
And of course you discount any possibility that he misspoke? Come on Debra, why nit-pick. Besides, in all honesty, most Americans would not know the difference between the two, and quite frankly many would have wondered what he was talking about had he said "republic" instead of "democracy".

Of course, many here will look for any reason to belittle any nominee to the Court by President Bush, so I guess it was just a matter of time before someone got picky about something.

But it was a good catch on your part. I read over his remarks and totally missed the fact that he did indeed get it wrong, whether purposefully or mistakenly.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 01:36 pm
CoastalRat wrote:
...Besides, in all honesty, most Americans would not know the difference between the two, and quite frankly many would have wondered what he was talking about had he said "republic" instead of "democracy".


uh, why would they ? "and to the republic for which it stands".

perhaps it is nit-picking. but, he's a legal beagle. it's his job to know this stuff.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 01:44 pm
I agree he should know it, DTOM. And maybe he does. And maybe he mis-spoke. Nobody here knows, but to use that as a reason for having to think about confirming him, as Debra insinuates, is just plain silly.

Oh, and in answer to your query about why would they. Walk out on a street and ask 100 Americans whether we live in a constitutional republic or a constitutional democracy, and I would be willing to bet that most will say a democracy. The average American is, from everything we hear, not overly literate about our government.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 02:25 pm
CoastalRat
As you say most Americans would not know or even understand the difference. However, this man is a candidate for the USSC and certainly should.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 02:26 pm
There seems reason enough to fight this nomination. Bush has done what we all expected - nominated someone in the mold of Scalia/Thomas. That's far more important (towards the goal of an SC of a particular philosophy) than nominating someone for their gender or ethnicity. Had the nomination been to replace the Chief Justice, this nomination would have been less than critical. As a replacement for O'Conner, it is critical.

The constitution is itself mute on the subject of how it ought to be read/interpreted. Thus insistence on a literalist reading such as Scalia argues is really simply opinion or preference.

This ought to be fought, and fought hard.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 03:03 pm
Roberts did not misspeak. Reviewing his history, it is clear that he meant what he said: "That experience left me with a profound appreciation for the role of the court in our constitutional democracy."

He again refers to "democracy," more specifically, "the institutions of our democracy" in his final words:

"And I also want to acknowledge my children — my daughter, Josie, my son, Jack — who remind me every day why it’s so important for us to work to preserve the institutions of our democracy."

It is PATHETIC that most Americans don't know the difference between a republic and a democracy. It is precisely the apathy and ignorance of the American public that allows the politicians to manipulate away the principles upon which this country was founded.

What is the role of our institution--the United States Supreme Court--in our constitutional republic?

It acts as the ultimate source of checks and balances upon the power of the people, through their elected officials, to tyrannize individual and minority rights through oppressive laws.

James Madison wrote:

An ELECTIVE DESPOTISM was not the government we fought for; but one which should not only be founded on free principles, but in which the powers of government should be so divided and balanced among several bodies of magistracy, as that no one could transcend their legal limits, without being effectually checked and restrained by the others.


Source: Federalist No. 48

These Departments Should Not Be So Far Separated as to Have No Constitutional Control Over Each Other (Friday, February 1, 1788).

http://thomas.loc.gov/home/histdox/fed_48.html

Our forefathers founded this country to SECURE and PRESERVE LIBERTY . . . not to allow individual liberty interests to fall prey to mob rule through democratic processes.

The proper ROLE of the Supreme Court is secure and preserve individual liberty retained by the people when they formed a government of delegated and limited powers.

Quote:
In order to lay a due foundation for that separate and distinct exercise of the different powers of government, which to a certain extent is admitted on all hands to be essential to the preservation of liberty, it is evident that each department should have a will of its own; and consequently should be so constituted that the members of each should have as little agency as possible in the appointment of the members of the others. . . .

It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. . . .

It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers, but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other part. Different interests necessarily exist in different classes of citizens. If a majority be united by a common interest, the rights of the minority will be insecure. . . .

Justice is the end of government. It is the end of civil society. It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be obtained, or until liberty be lost in the pursuit. In a society under the forms of which the stronger faction can readily unite and oppress the weaker, anarchy may as truly be said to reign as in a state of nature, where the weaker individual is not secured against the violence of the stronger; and as, in the latter state, even the stronger individuals are prompted, by the uncertainty of their condition, to submit to a government which may protect the weak as well as themselves; so, in the former state, will the more powerful factions or parties be gradnally induced, by a like motive, to wish for a government which will protect all parties, the weaker as well as the more powerful.


http://thomas.loc.gov/home/histdox/fed_51.html

Our constitutional republic is what ALL of us must strive to understand and maintain.

There are certain justices sitting on the Supreme Court who do not adhere to the concept of a "constitutional republic," but desire to transform our country into a "constitutional democracy" wherein the Court severely restrains its constitutional role to act as the guardian of individual rights and defers to majority rule (majority tyranny).

All fundamental rights comprised within the term liberty are protected by the Federal Constitution from invasion by the States. But, some justices (and others) would prefer to abandon the Supreme Court's proper role to secure liberty by leaving individual liberty interests to majority rule.

See, e.g., Scalia's dissenting opinion in PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF SOUTHEASTERN PA. v. CASEY, 505 U.S. 833 (1992) wherein he advocates his "constitutional democracy" position:

Justice Scalia wrote:
The States may, if they wish, permit abortion on demand, but the Constitution does not require them to do so. The permissibility of abortion, and the limitations upon it, are to be resolved like most important questions in our democracy: by citizens trying to persuade one another and then voting.



http://laws.findlaw.com/us/505/833.html


Scalia doesn't want the constitution to protect and secure individual LIBERTY interests against government interference in private matters--he wants individual liberty interests to be left to the vote of the majority based upon their moral disapproval. After Scalia thoroughly bashed the majority for recognizing that the state has no legitimate basis for criminalizing private sexual conduct between consenting adults, Scalia said the following in his dissent in Lawrence v. Texas:

Justice Scalia wrote:
Let me be clear that I have nothing against homosexuals, or any other group, promoting their agenda through normal democratic means. Social perceptions of sexual and other morality change over time, and every group has the right to persuade its fellow citizens that its view of such matters is the best.


:roll eyes:

The Fourteenth Amendment protects life, liberty, and property. But, according to those who advocate for a "constitutional democracy," the constitution simply doesn't protect individual freedom/privacy/liberty interests--these interests are subject to criminal penalities based on the moral disapproval alone of a tyrannical majority.

HOWEVER, God (I think it's the Catholic God) forbid if the constitution doesn't protect PROPERTY INTERESTS.

See the majority opinion in Kelo v. City of New London:

the majority wrote:
We emphasize that nothing in our opinion precludes any State from placing further restrictions on its exercise of the takings power. Indeed, many States already impose "public use" requirements that are stricter than the federal baseline. Some of these requirements have been established as a matter of state constitutional law,22 while others are expressed in state eminent domain statutes that carefully limit the grounds upon which takings may be exercised.23 As the submissions of the parties and their amici make clear, the necessity and wisdom of using eminent domain to promote economic development are certainly matters of legitimate public debate.24 This Court's authority, however, extends only to determining whether the City's proposed condemnations are for a "public use" within the meaning of the Fifth Amendment to the Federal Constitution. Because over a century of our case law interpreting that provision dictates an affirmative answer to that question, we may not grant petitioners the relief that they seek.


When the majority ruled in Kelo that limitations on "public use" for economic development should be left to the democratic processes of the people in their respective states, Scalia changed his tune.

According to Scalia, the Fourteenth Amendment protects PROPERTY, but not LIBERTY. How convenient to throw democracy out the window in order to extend constitutional protection to property; but sneer in condescending disgust when anyone suggests that it protects liberty.

Let's just put a camera in everyone's bedroom and let the morality police run the country. Don't let them catch you engaging in sex if you're not married. Don't let them catch you married folk spilling that procreative seed on the mattress or using contraceptives . . .

It is clear the the nominee, John G. Roberts, is a Scalia clone.

Again--ours is NOT a constitutional democracy. Roberts' reference to the "role of the court in our constitutional democracy" speaks VOLUMES for those who care to listen. And if you're one of those people who think it's proper to impose your religious and moral beliefs on others through the operation of the laws--Roberts is your man.

Be careful what you ask for . . . you just might get it. Smile
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 03:49 pm
lol Maybe before you start ranting YOU should look up "Contsitutional Democracy" and see what the term actually means.

http://www.civiced.org/constdem.html

The term has NOTHING to do with whether we are organized as a single democratic entity or a republic of many independent states. It refers to a philosophical viewpoint of how government and the people it serves iinteract, not a legal entity. Rolling Eyes
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 04:14 pm
fishin' wrote:
lol Maybe before you start ranting YOU should look up "Contsitutional Democracy" and see what the term actually means.


rant or not, she's accurate in her read of a very possible outcome of allowing the distortion of what the supreme court's function is supposed to be in america.

if a single party (any party) has an iron grip on every body of the government, it's not a good thing. and considering how often we here on a2k are treated to the gleeful exclamations of "hah! the republicans are the majority, you liberal losers", i'd have to say that debra's comments are quite timely and relevant.

keep up the good work, deb. your stuff always makes me think.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 05:01 pm
fishin' wrote:
lol Maybe before you start ranting YOU should look up "Contsitutional Democracy" and see what the term actually means.

http://www.civiced.org/constdem.html

The term has NOTHING to do with whether we are organized as a single democratic entity or a republic of many independent states. It refers to a philosophical viewpoint of how government and the people it serves iinteract, not a legal entity. Rolling Eyes



Frankly, it's YOU who needs to figure things out. The same people who use the phrase "judicial activism" to criticize the court when it protects individual rights are the same people who throw around the phrase "constitutional democracy." The same people who want to restrict and restrain the court from invalidating state laws are the ones who claim these issues must be left to the democratic processes of the people.

Those who desire to impose their religious and moral beliefs on others through the operation of state laws endorse the following:

"Judicial activism" is BAD; "constitutional democracy" is GOOD.

Maybe they can fool you with their buzz phrases, but they don't fool me.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 05:12 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
The same people who use the phrase "judicial activism" to criticize the court when it protects individual rights are the same people who throw around the phrase "constitutional democracy."



Really? lmao Do a google search on the term "Constitutional democracy" (include the quotes) and the references you'll find to the term outside of educational institutions and listings of publications is on buzzflash.com - hardly a bastion of right-wing thought.

Quote:
The same people who want to restrict and restrain the court from invalidating state laws are the ones who claim these issues must be left to the democratic processes of the people.

Those who desire to impose their religious and moral beliefs on others through the operation of state laws endorse the following:

"Judicial activism" is BAD; "constitutional democracy" is GOOD.

Maybe they can fool you with their buzz phrases, but they don't fool me.


Blah, blah, blah. You're frothing at the mouth again. I've yet to hear János Kis ever utter the words "Judicial activism". I'm glad to see that you admit that you embrace the concept of constitutional democracy though - since you are one of those very people that wish to "impose their religious and moral beliefs on others".
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 05:14 pm
fish to debra_law
Quote:
since you are one of those very people that wish to "impose their religious and moral beliefs on others".


You wanna fight on that charge, old friend?
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 05:22 pm
Thank you, Debra, for explaining the difference. It does make a difference and is vital to the future of our country.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 05:25 pm
blatham wrote:
You wanna fight on that charge, old friend?


Challenge what you wish. Wink
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 06:05 pm
I'm with fishin'. I've been through this republic/democracy business on here before and I'm surprised that otherwise erudite people get it all wrong.

A "republic" is just a form of government. A republic can be democratic or a dictatorship. America is indeed a republic, it is also a democracy (indirect democracy). Given that the supreme authority of America is contained not within a monarch but the Constitution it's perfectly right to describe America as a "constitutional democracy".

My country has a nominal monarch (the Queen of England is also the Queen of Australia) and a bi-cameral Parliament. We are a democracy (indirect type). Ergo we a are a "parliamentary democracy" . When we no longer have a nominal monarch we will be a republic with a President but we will still be a democracy.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 06:20 pm
All in all, I tend towards the understanding that in our republic/democracy whatever, there is a constant tug of war between individual rights and social dominance. There does not seem to be a balance point so society shifts from one side to the other. I lean heavily to the side of individual rights while the currrent trend in republican thought as well as the traditional avenue of democrat thought has been towards society at large. So it goes. If we continue on the current path of mob rule we lose our individual freedom vs if we moved towards anarchy we would need to be more responsible than the sheep we have become. I can pretty much tell which direction we are heading in which makes me a bit sad but I am old and won't have that many years to watch the US solwly melt into mayonnaise.
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 07:10 pm
It was ever thus dys. Good that the struggle continues, it's sad when some give up and let the government simply have its way.

As I understand it (meaning I will welcome correction) the Constitution was set up to avoid the tyranny of the majority.

I presume that's why, since the neo-cons have grabbed control, the struggle you describe has intensified.

The neo-cons, believing themselves to be in the majority, are struggling with the constraints imposed by the genius of the Constitution.

In essence then, they are at war, not with the Democrats/Opposition but with the Constitution itself.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 07:22 pm
yeppers goodfielder that's about the way I see it.
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Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 07:44 pm
goodfielder wrote:
It was ever thus dys. Good that the struggle continues, it's sad when some give up and let the government simply have its way.

As I understand it (meaning I will welcome correction) the Constitution was set up to avoid the tyranny of the majority.

I presume that's why, since the neo-cons have grabbed control, the struggle you describe has intensified.

The neo-cons, believing themselves to be in the majority, are struggling with the constraints imposed by the genius of the Constitution.

In essence then, they are at war, not with the Democrats/Opposition but with the Constitution itself.


Could you please explain this war with the Constitution in more detail?
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 07:55 pm
Baldimo wrote:

Could you please explain this war with the Constitution in more detail?


No I can't Baldimo. Two reasons. The first is that I am bereft of knowledge of the Constitution. The second is that I would be stepping into the trap that you are laying and I have no intention of doing so. I've been here long enough to see how the Right does this. Take the discussion off on a tangent and then rifle through the latest Talking Points to bog it all down in an orgy of parsing point by point in what amounts to a war of attrition.

So instead let me make my point.

The Constitution was developed to ensure that the majority could never tyrannise the minority. That in itself is pure genius in motivation.

That such a brilliant idea, a central tenet of liberal democracy, could be translated into an effective document is double genius.

My respect for the framers of the Constitution now knows no bounds.

It's why would-be tyrants in the US (unlike many other countries) have failed to take hold.

For a tyrant to take over it would mean an attack on the Constitution itself.

The Constitution ensures that in US politics there is no "winner takes all".

The neo-cons want it all, they are using the claim that they are in the majority (look at the rhetoric when they claim to hold both the White House and Congress and now want to control the US Supreme Court). In order to achieve total control of the entire political process they have to declare war on the Constitution because the Constitution - as it currently stands - doesn't allow that.

It isn't a war of bullets, it's a dirty war of propaganda, lies and half-truths.
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