5
   

Joe Biden SHOULD pardon Trump!

 
 
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2020 09:03 am
Yeah, Joe Biden should pardon Trump for any and all federal crimes committed while he (Trump) was president...

...and which Trump acknowledges he committed, regrets, and wants to be pardoned.

Biden should offer that same deal to Ivanka, Don, Jr., and Eric.

Only condition should be that the request for the pardons must come to the Oval Office within two weeks of the offer...and the offer should be made on the first full day of the Biden presidency.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 5 • Views: 4,509 • Replies: 182

 
neptuneblue
 
  3  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2020 09:14 am
@Frank Apisa,
Absolutely not.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2020 10:08 am
@Frank Apisa,
sorry, Im set on option number 1. Trump needs to recognize the US Constitution and he should , further, apologize to the American People for all his transgressions while sitting as president.

0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2020 10:37 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
...and which Trump acknowledges he committed, regrets, and wants to be pardoned.


That's the key, right there. It would save a lot of time and money. Exposed on the national stage as someone deserving of rebuke or punishment and spared by the mercy of powerful actors within the Deep State, he'd no longer be able to play the victim. It might even peel off five or ten per cent from his popularity in the opinion polls.

But seriously, it would only be worth it if there were already a detailed list of all the potential charges against Trump and his family, with documents and sources. Because the full extent of the corruption needs to be known. If he took the pardon but investigators started grilling him over his possible crimes and potentially treasonous activities he'd have the victim card back in play in no time. And there's nothing that attracts MAGAts like Trump in full martyr mode.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 07:25 am
You people are delusional. Name one actual statute specifically which there's a scrap of evidence that he violated and don't say the Logan Act.
neptuneblue
 
  3  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 07:33 am
@Brandon9000,
Impoundment Control Act of 1974.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 07:52 am
@Brandon9000,
The Mueller report clearly pointed out obstruction of justice but said it was up to Congress to act against a sitting President.
0 Replies
 
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 08:46 am
@Frank Apisa,
I agree. Politically wise decision even if hard to swallow!
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 09:16 am
@Brandon9000,
Violation of emoluments clause
Conflict of interest
Abuse of power
Revealing state secrets
Conspiring to commit campaign finance violation
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 09:45 am
@neptuneblue
@farmerman
@hightor
@engineer
@Albuquerque


Everyone.

Obviously I was being facetious.

There is NO WAY Trump would ever agree to those conditions. Absolutely NO WAY.

I was mocking the process.

Anyway...Joe Biden has too much character to do something like this.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 10:32 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

There is NO WAY Trump would ever agree to those conditions. Absolutely NO WAY.


He would if they threw in a dominatrix or two.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 10:56 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

There is NO WAY Trump would ever agree to those conditions. Absolutely NO WAY.


He would if they threw in a dominatrix or two.


I seriously doubt he would even if promised that the entire of the corps de ballet and feature dancers of the Bolshoi would take a piss on him.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 11:07 am
@Brandon9000,
Tax evasion.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 11:13 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
Yeah, Joe Biden should pardon Trump for any and all federal crimes committed while he (Trump) was president...
...and which Trump acknowledges he committed, regrets, and wants to be pardoned.

Mr. Trump should pardon himself.

And then he should appoint a range of independent prosecutors to hound the Biden Administration with endless criminal investigations.


neptuneblue wrote:
Absolutely not.

Outlawing the Democratic Party will put an end to their abuse of power.


farmerman wrote:
Trump needs to recognize the US Constitution

He has always recognized it. It's progressives who do not recognize the Constitution.


farmerman wrote:
he should, further, apologize to the American People for all his transgressions while sitting as president.

He has committed no transgressions and has nothing to apologize for.


hightor wrote:
it would only be worth it if there were already a detailed list of all the potential charges against Trump and his family, with documents and sources. Because the full extent of the corruption needs to be known.

No such corruption.


neptuneblue wrote:
Impoundment Control Act of 1974.

Be serious. It's routine for the government to pressure other countries by withholding aid.

And just out of curiosity, what is the penalty for violating this statute?


engineer wrote:
The Mueller report clearly pointed out obstruction of justice but said it was up to Congress to act against a sitting President.

The Democrats have a history of framing innocent people on phony obstruction charges. There is no reason to assume that any actual obstruction occurred.

And even if there was actual obstruction, Bill Clinton has already set a precedent that presidential obstruction is no big deal. In the unlikely event that it can be established that Mr. Trump obstructed justice for real, just have him pay a small fine.


hightor wrote:
Violation of emoluments clause
Conflict of interest
Abuse of power
Revealing state secrets

What statutes were violated with anything that you listed?

If the President reveals a secret then it is no longer a state secret.

The only abuses of power here are being committed by progressives.


hightor wrote:
Conspiring to commit campaign finance violation

It requires a pretty absurd misreading of the law to claim that campaign finance laws were violated.


InfraBlue wrote:
Tax evasion.

Anything within the statute of limitations?
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 11:40 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
He has always recognized it (the US Constitution)


Do you think he was just ignorant of its content or was he actually knowingly attempting to brek it.

Ollie again said:

Quote:

He has committed no transgressions and has nothing to apologize for
SO, Are you just ignorant of them or are you too just ignoring the law.??
0 Replies
 
neptuneblue
 
  3  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 11:43 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Outlawing the Democratic Party will put an end to their abuse of power.


Thankfully, we have a Justice system to keep stupid Presidents from doing stupid things.

Trump broke law by diverting $2.5B for border wall, appeals court rules
By Associated Press June 26, 2020

SAN FRANCISCO >> A federal appeals court today ruled against the Trump administration in its transfer of $2.5 billion from military construction projects to build sections of the U.S. border wall with Mexico, ruling it illegally sidestepped Congress, which gets to decide how to use the funds.

In two opinions, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals agreed with a coalition of border states and environmental groups that contended the money transfer was unlawful and that building the wall would pose environmental threats.

The rulings were the latest twist in the legal battle that has largely gone Trump’s way. Last July, the Supreme Court allowed the $2.5 billion to be spent while the litigation continued, blunting the impact of the latest appeals court action.

The administration has already awarded much of the money, including a $1.3-billion job in Arizona that was announced last month. Trump visited Yuma, Arizona, on Tuesday to mark completion of the 200th mile of border wall during his administration, much of it with the transferred military funds that the 9th Circuit panel found illegal.

After the $2.5 billion transfer of military funds, the Pentagon diverted another $3.6 billion that an appeals court in New Orleans ruled in January could be spent.

Still, critics of Trump’s wall praised the rulings today for upholding the Constitution, which grants Congress the power of the purse.

“The funds that he is pilfering, which were appropriated by Congress, are vital to support the safety and well-being of the brave men and women in uniform, as well as their families,” said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat.

The 9th Circuit ruled that the Trump administration not only lacked the authority to authorize the transfer of funds, “but also violated an express constitutional prohibition designed to protect individual liberties.”

The vote on both rulings was 2-1 with judges appointed by former President Bill Clinton in the majority and a Trump nominee dissenting.

The panel said the government was proceeding with border wall construction without ensuring compliance with any environmental regulations, thereby harming the interests of Sierra Club members who visit the border region for hiking, bird watching and other recreational activities.

The panel also held that the government failed to show that construction would halt the flow of illegal drugs. It said the administration had cited drug statistics but didn’t address how the wall would have an impact on the problem.

“The executive branch’s failure to show, in concrete terms, that the public’s interest favors a border wall is particularly significant given that Congress determined fencing to be a lower budgetary priority and the Department of Justice’s data points to a contrary conclusion,” the majority wrote.

After the Supreme Court gave the green light last year to begin work on the wall using Defense Department money, the Justice Department vowed to continue to defend the administration’s efforts to protect the southern border.

California Attorney General Xavier Becerra, who led a 20-state coalition of attorneys general that sued the administration, praised the court decision.

“While the Trump administration steals public funds to build an unauthorized wall at the southern border, families across the country are struggling to pay their bills,” Becerra said. “They deserve to know that their hard-earned dollars are going where Congress intended — to benefit them and their communities.”

The American Civil Liberties Union, which sued on behalf of Sierra Club and Southern Border Communities Coalition, said if the Trump administration appeals, the case will go back to the Supreme Court where the ACLU will seek to tear down sections of the wall that were built with the military money.

“There’s no undoing the damage that’s been done, but we will be back before the Supreme Court to finally put a stop to this destructive wall,” said ACLU staff attorney Dror Ladin.

0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 12:05 pm
someone incorrectly wrote:
Mr. Trump should pardon himself.


Someone's understanding of the law is rather shallow:

Quote:
As Donald Trump’s tenure in office comes in for its landing, a major question is whether the president—facing questions about liability for offenses including bank and tax fraud—can pardon himself.

This might seem like the right operational question, but it is imprecise as a constitutional one. Article II of the Constitution says that the president “shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.” Did you catch that? The president has the power not to pardon people, but “to grant … Pardons” (emphasis added). So the question is not whether Trump can pardon himself. It’s whether he can grant himself a pardon.

That might seem like an odd way of putting the question, but it’s linguistically important. On the one hand, some actions can’t be reflexive—you can’t do them to yourself. Think of surrendering, relinquishing, or handing over something. These verbs entail a transfer to someone else; the actor can’t also be the recipient.

On the other hand, countless verbs do leave open the possibility of reflexive meaning. If, for example, the Constitution had empowered the president not to grant a pardon but to announce a pardon, one would be hard-pressed to insist that the president could not announce himself as a recipient.

So, what about granting? Is it—in its usage in the Constitution—a verb more like handing over or announcing?

Judges and other legal scholars have a set of techniques for determining the meaning of constitutional text. One is to scour the rest of the Constitution for hints. If the same word appears in multiple clauses of the Constitution, one should assume that it has the same meaning throughout unless a clear reason exists to think otherwise. So let’s look at the verb grant in the Constitution outside the pardons clause.

Article I says that all of the “legislative power herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States.” “We the People” are doing the granting here, doling out to Congress the power to make policy. Grant here is transitive—from one entity to another.

The same article gives Congress the power “to grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal.” Those are permission slips that let private commercial vessels make war against ships of enemy nations and do things that would otherwise be piracy. Again, grant is transitive—from Congress to ships.

Article I later states that “no Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States,” that “no state … shall grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal,” and that “no state … shall grant any title of Nobility.” Transitive, transitive, and transitive.

According to Article II, the president has the power “to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.” Again, transitive. If, say, the previously Senate-confirmed secretary of education quits while the Senate is in recess, the president can name a temporary replacement.

The last use of the word grant in the Constitution, apart from the pardons clause itself, is in Article III, where the power of the judiciary is set to include “Controversies … between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States.” Here grant is a noun, not a verb, but it again describes something extending from one entity (a state) to another (a citizen).

Based solely on other uses of grant in the Constitution, a person could reasonably determine that a president cannot grant himself a pardon. But in evaluating the meaning of the Constitution’s words, the text of the Constitution isn’t all that counts. The most common interpretive method these days—championed by Justice Antonin Scalia and now broadly popular among conservatives—is to look for evidence of a term’s “original public meaning.” That, theoretically, is the meaning that ordinary English speakers of the late 18th century would have attached to a given term when coming upon it in a legal document like the Constitution.

But how is one to determine this “original public meaning”? One place to begin is a law dictionary in use at the time, such as The Law-Dictionary: Explaining the Rise, Progress, and Present State of the English Law; Defining and Interpreting the Terms or Words of Art; and Comprising Copious Information on the Subjects of Law, Trade, and Government, compiled by Giles Jacob, and the most popular legal dictionary of the era. According to Jacob’s tome, a grant—which he defined only as a noun—is a “conveyance in writing of incorporeal things.” And what, in turn, is a conveyance? It is “a deed which passes or conveys land from one man to another.”

Note: “from one man to another.”

Thus, to the extent that the most popular contemporaneous law dictionary is valuable in understanding what ordinary speakers of the founding era meant by “granting,” it seems clear that they probably had in mind an interpersonal transfer.

Now, dictionaries are not the only available evidence of a term’s meaning at a particular historical moment. We have books, newspapers, and other printed matter. And people today are fortunate to have an easy way to search huge amounts of such material in the form of the Google Books Ngram Viewer. This extraordinary bit of technology allows a user to pick a beginning and an end date and request a calculation of the frequency with which words and phrases appear in all of Google’s scanned written material from that time period. This tool can reveal, for example, that the word texting got almost no use across the 20th century until 1997, when, for reasons everyone can infer, it began to skyrocket.

According to the Ngram Viewer, did English speakers in the late 18th century understand the verb grant to have a reflexive meaning? In their world, could you grant something to yourself? If you could, evidence of that in the form of phrases such as grants himself and grants herself and grant themselves and grant myself and grant yourself should appear throughout the Ngram Viewer’s corpus.

But, in the time period from 1750 to 1800, essentially none of these appears. Transitive uses of the verb—“grant me,” “grant him,” “grant her,” “grant us,” “grant you,” and the like, where the person receiving the grant is different from the person doing the granting—are all common. But reflexive uses, where the person doing the granting is also the person on the receiving end? All but nonexistent. In most instances where a phrase like grant myself does pop up, it’s a different meaning of grant entirely, as in John Knox’s 1790 book, History of the Reformation of Religion in the Realm of Scotland, in which the word means something like “acknowledge”: “And when you let me see the contrary, I shall grant myself to be deceived in that point.”

To be sure, by the 20th century a reflexive meaning of grant appears in Ngram Viewer searches, as in this passage from a 1921 Macmillan Reader for Commercial Classes: “We need more sleep at twenty-five than we do at fifty, and the young man who grants himself less than eight hours’ sleep every night just robs himself of so much vitality.”

In the second half of the 18th century, we see no such evidence.

Ask the wrong question, you get the wrong answer. Can Donald Trump pardon himself? Perhaps, but that’s not the question the Constitution requires us to ask. Can Donald Trump grant himself a pardon? The evidence, at least according to the text of the Constitution and its original meaning, says no.

eric muller

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 12:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
That’s what’s called negotiation.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 12:24 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:


Tax evasion.



Anything within the statute of limitations?

Most likely.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2020 12:40 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Violation of emoluments clause
Conflict of interest
Abuse of power
Revealing state secrets
Conspiring to commit campaign finance violation

I'm not going to argue with five people, so you're the lucky one. What nonsense. How come you didn't give a single detail for a single item on your list? Let's take the first item. When and how did Trump violate the emoluments clause?
 

 
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