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Debunking 8 anti-war myths #5

 
 
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 08:25 am
The war on terror has nothing to do with Iraq.

This is another historical rewrite. The reality is that the pro-war movement in this country since 9/11 has plainly spoken of dealing with Saddam Hussein as part of the war on terrorism almost from the very beginning. Here's George Bush in a speech given on 9/20/2001:

Quote:
"Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes visible on TV and covert operations secret even in success.

We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place until there is no refuge or no rest.

And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.

From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime."


Iraq certainly was a state that harbored and supported terrorists and the approach Bush discussed, the Bush Doctrine, was adopted and talked about often in relation to Iraq during the lead up to the war. As proof, look to a column called "Answering 50 Frequently Asked Questions About The War On Terrorism" that I wrote back on March 13, 2003:

Quote:
Why are we going to invade Iraq? Nine days after 9/11, George Bush said,

"(W)e will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime."

That definition fits Iraq and since they happened to be the easiest nation to make a case against at the UN and in the court of World Opinion, they were our next logical target after Afghanistan -- although they're not our last target."


The war on terrorism cannot be won as long as there are terrorist supporting states out there. So one way or the other, we need to get those rogue regimes out of the business of supporting terrorist groups of international reach. Saddam led one of those regimes and now, happily, he's gone -- perhaps before the US was hit with an Iraqi based terrorist attack:

Quote:
"I can confirm that after the events of September 11, 2001, and up to the military operation in Iraq, Russian special services and Russian intelligence several times received ... information that official organs of Saddam's regime were preparing terrorist acts on the territory of the United States and beyond its borders, at U.S. military and civilian locations." -- Russian President Vladimir Putin as quoted by CNN on June 18, 2004


Even John Kerry, the flip-flopping Democratic candidate for President last year, seemed to at least agree that the fate of Iraq was crucial to the war on terror:

Quote:
"Iraq may not be the war on terror itself, but it is critical to the outcome of the war on terror, and therefore any advance in Iraq is an advance forward in that and I disagree with the Governor [Howard Dean]." -- John Kerry, 12/15/03


Kerry even pointed out that he thought Saddam might give WMDs to terrorists:

Quote:
"I would disagree with John McCain that it's the actual weapons of mass destruction he may use against us, it's what he may do in another invasion of Kuwait or in a miscalculation about the Kurds or a miscalculation about Iran or particularly Israel. Those are the things that - that I think present the greatest danger. He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It's the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat." -- John Kerry, "Face The Nation", 9/15/02


Now if even John Kerry of all people is willing to admit that Iraq is "critical to the outcome of the war on terror" and that Saddam was the kind of guy who might use terrorist groups to attack the US, we should be able to at least agree at this point that it's not the least bit disingenuous to suggest that Iraq is an important part of the war on terrorism.

Source for lie #5 including links.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 09:56 am
A large snip of an aven larger article

Beating the War Drums

When the Cold War ended, these neoconservatives began casting about for a new crusade to give meaning to their lives. On Sept. 11, their time came. They seized on that horrific atrocity to steer America's rage into all-out war to destroy their despised enemies, the Arab and Islamic "rogue states" that have resisted U.S. hegemony and loathe Israel.

The War Party's plan, however, had been in preparation far in advance of 9/11. And when President Bush, after defeating the Taliban, was looking for a new front in the war on terror, they put their precooked meal in front of him. Bush dug into it.

Before introducing the script-writers of America's future wars, consider the rapid and synchronized reaction of the neocons to what happened after that fateful day.

On Sept. 12, Americans were still in shock when Bill Bennett told CNN that we were in "a struggle between good and evil," that the Congress must declare war on "militant Islam," and that "overwhelming force" must be used. Bennett cited Lebanon, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and China as targets for attack. Not, however, Afghanistan, the sanctuary of Osama's terrorists. How did Bennett know which nations must be smashed before he had any idea who attacked us?

The Wall Street Journal immediately offered up a specific target list, calling for U.S. air strikes on "terrorist camps in Syria, Sudan, Libya, and Algeria, and perhaps even in parts of Egypt." Yet, not one of Bennett's six countries, nor one of these five, had anything to do with 9/11.

On Sept. 15, according to Bob Woodward's Bush at War, "Paul Wolfowitz put forth military arguments to justify a U.S. attack on Iraq rather than Afghanistan." Why Iraq? Because, Wolfowitz argued in the War Cabinet, while "attacking Afghanistan would be uncertain … Iraq was a brittle oppressive regime that might break easily. It was doable."

On Sept. 20, forty neoconservatives sent an open letter to the White House instructing President Bush on how the war on terror must be conducted. Signed by Bennett, Podhoretz, Kirkpatrick, Perle, Kristol, and Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer, the letter was an ultimatum. To retain the signers' support, the president was told, he must target Hezbollah for destruction, retaliate against Syria and Iran if they refuse to sever ties to Hezbollah, and overthrow Saddam. Any failure to attack Iraq, the signers warned Bush, "will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism."

Here was a cabal of intellectuals telling the Commander-in-Chief, nine days after an attack on America, that if he did not follow their war plans, he would be charged with surrendering to terror. Yet, Hezbollah had nothing to do with 9/11. What had Hezbollah done? Hezbollah had humiliated Israel by driving its army out of Lebanon.

President Bush had been warned. He was to exploit the attack of 9/11 to launch a series of wars on Arab regimes, none of which had attacked us. All, however, were enemies of Israel. "Bibi" Netanyahu, the former Prime Minister of Israel, like some latter-day Citizen Genet, was ubiquitous on American television, calling for us to crush the "Empire of Terror." The "Empire," it turns out, consisted of Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Iraq, and "the Palestinian enclave."
Quote:
First and foremost, we must bring down the terror regimes, beginning with the Big Three: Iran, Iraq, and Syria. And then we have to come to grips with Saudi Arabia. … Once the tyrants in Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia have been brought down, we will remain engaged. …We have to ensure the fulfillment of the democratic revolution. … Stability is an unworthy American mission, and a misleading concept to boot. We do not want stability in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and even Saudi Arabia; we want things to change. The real issue is not whether, but how to destabilize.


Rejecting stability as "an unworthy American mission," Ledeen goes on to define America's authentic "historic mission":

Quote:
Creative destruction is our middle name, both within our society and abroad. We tear down the old order every day, from business to science, literature, art, architecture, and cinema to politics and the law. Our enemies have always hated this whirlwind of energy and creativity which menaces their traditions (whatever they may be) and shames them for their inability to keep pace. … [W]e must destroy them to advance our historic mission.


Passages like this owe more to Leon Trotsky than to Robert Taft and betray a Jacobin streak in neoconservatism that cannot be reconciled with any concept of true conservatism.

To the Weekly Standard, Ledeen's enemies list was too restrictive. We must not only declare war on terror networks and states that harbor terrorists, said the Standard, we should launch wars on "any group or government inclined to support or sustain others like them in the future."

Robert Kagan and William Kristol were giddy with excitement at the prospect of Armageddon. The coming war "is going to spread and engulf a number of countries. … It is going to resemble the clash of civilizations that everyone has hoped to avoid. …

Norman Podhoretz in Commentary even outdid Kristol's Standard, rhapsodizing that we should embrace a war of civilizations, as it is George W. Bush's mission
Quote:
We may willy-nilly find ourselves forced … to topple five or six or seven more tyrannies in the Islamic world (including that other sponsor of terrorism, Yasir Arafat's Palestinian Authority). I can even [imagine] the turmoil of this war leading to some new species of an imperial mission for America, whose purpose would be to oversee the emergence of successor governments in the region more amenable to reform and modernization than the despotisms now in place. … I can also envisage the establishment of some kind of American protectorate over the oil fields of Saudi Arabia, as we more and more come to wonder why 7,000 princes should go on being permitted to exert so much leverage over us and everyone else.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 10:05 am
This should probably have been under #4... have you read #4 yet? I have to run to lunch now, be back in a bit.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 10:10 am
I'm less worried about what has already happened and more worried about where we are headed in the future. We are in Iraq, how we got there is less important at this time then where we go from here. That is why I posted it here and not 4... although it would fit in there as well.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 11:17 am
Yes, the thought of a world war does scare me. However, the thought of sharia law scares me more. The thought of my daughter living under Sharia law scares me more. The thought of the United States of America kneeling before Islamic Fundamentalism scares me more.

There is no doubt there are people in the world the would love to see yet another crusade go to the middle east to free it from the evil Muslims, just as there are those who would love to see Islam be the only religion allowed in the world.

But, there is always a middle path. Just not sure what it is right now.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 11:43 am
McGentrix wrote:
Yes, the thought of a world war does scare me. However, the thought of sharia law scares me more. The thought of my daughter living under Sharia law scares me more. The thought of the United States of America kneeling before Islamic Fundamentalism scares me more.


I don't think we need to bow to Islamic Extremists. I just don't see any reason for us to be there... not just post 9/11 or iraq war but pre-9/11. The reason they are so pissed off at us is because we are over there, in their point of view, degrading their holy land.

Why are we there? Oil? Gas prices hit another all time high this week.

Do we really care about the people under oppression there? Perhaps, but I don't think they are ready to to fight for their freedom. Why should we?

Threats from the middle East? I think if we just left that those threats would stop. We are evil because we are over there invading their land and threatening their religion (again... their point of view). What reason would they have to attack us if we were not over there meddling in their affairs?

Reagan fought the entire Soviet Union, which was a much larger threat to us then some terrorists, without ever actually going to war. He realized that it was vital to US interests to battle Communism and protect our way of life. How does our presence in Iraq protect our way of life?


McGentrix wrote:
There is no doubt there are people in the world the would love to see yet another crusade go to the middle east to free it from the evil Muslims, just as there are those who would love to see Islam be the only religion allowed in the world.

But, there is always a middle path. Just not sure what it is right now.


I used to support the war... but I just don't see anymore how being there is in our best interests. I think our course of action should be to get out of their business and instead focus on our own national interests. Our dollar is declining. Our jobs are being shipped overseas. Our money is being shipped overseas to countries like China who could end up being the biggest threat the US has faced yet. We used to be a self sufficient country able to support and defend ourselves. Due to free trade we are becoming dependent on other countries for manufacturing needs. As we are shipping our money overseas we are also losing the finances to be able to defend ourselves. We need to have a serious look at what is the best for OUR country.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 11:53 am
Yep. What country is within a few years of eliminating dependency on foreign oil? Brazil was it? If they can do it....

'Course that approach requires leadership, while going to war just requires running to stay ahead of the mob.

"There go my people; I must lead them."
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 11:58 am
Surely you believe that everyone is entitled to a free life, don't you? The governments of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia asked us for help defendinga against Saddam Hussein. Are you suggesting we should have ignored those pleas? Should we have allowed Hussein to run rampant over the whole penensula? Where would you have stopped him?

Our economy is oil based. Every thing we do in the US is based around petroleum, there is no denying that. I believe it to be in the best interest of everyone in the US to protect the oil reserves in the middle east. That is one of the reasons we protected the oil fields in Iraq before anything else. Could you imagine the economic and environmental impact of Hussein blowing every well in Iraq? That was his plan. Imagine what Hussein wouold have done had he not been stopped in 91. He would have unlimited funds for his WMDs and his powerful ego would never have been stopped.

Leaving the middle east would not stop any threats and it would be a huge economic mistake. We can not allow the worlds oil reserves to be in the hands of mad men. Sorry, but the US will never allow that to happen.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 12:03 pm
Now Hussein controlled the world's oil reserves?

Do you even listen to your own rants?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 12:06 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Now Hussein controlled the world's oil reserves?

Do you even listen to your own rants?


I do, but apparently you are having difficulties as you repeatedly prove.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 12:12 pm
Oh how I wish I had the time to do 8 threads debunking the myths of the pro-war crowd.

The myth stated here is not actually the correct one. Most people make the argument that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 and subsequently we should not be fighting Iraq. There's no evidence to suggest that he did. Your guy is on a tear, but he's all over the place with his argument. If we were truly trying to fight islamic terrorism, we would not have invaded Iraq, the only secular nation in the ME.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 12:16 pm
That's why I broke this down into eight sections instead of just one. You are making multiple arguments covered in different threads.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 12:18 pm
Crikey, do I have to read all of them? You mean you have one for Saddam != 9/11 and one for Saddam != war on terrorism? Good lord, you have a lot of time on your hands.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 12:28 pm
Yeah, no kidding, FD.

McG
Quote:
Surely you believe that everyone is entitled to a free life, don't you?


Not unless they are willing to fight for that freedom. It is not our place to bring freedom to the entire world, especially through the use of force.

This is an oft-repeated Myth by your side.

Cycloptichorn
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 12:32 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Crikey, do I have to read all of them? You mean you have one for Saddam != 9/11 and one for Saddam != war on terrorism? Good lord, you have a lot of time on your hands.


Nah.. its so much easier to say.. Go see #12 rather than make a cogent argument when questioned in the present thread.

The prevailing argument by McG seems to be "That isn't covered in this thread go see another one.."

But lets get to the bottom of EACH of these "myths". Provide your evidence of where this myth exists McG.. do the same thing for all the myths that you have listed.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 12:33 pm
Yaknow,

The thing that really gets me is that this isn't even your original analysis. It's a bunch of Freeper talking points that have been circulating around the Echo Chamber that is the Right-wing Blogosphere these days. And for some reason you saw fit to carve it up into a bunch of small posts that clutter up the main page needlessly.

Why don't you keep your lies and propaganda to yourself in the future; and if you can't do that, keep them in one topic instead of spamming the forum.

Cycloptichorn
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 12:34 pm
parados wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Crikey, do I have to read all of them? You mean you have one for Saddam != 9/11 and one for Saddam != war on terrorism? Good lord, you have a lot of time on your hands.


Nah.. its so much easier to say.. Go see #12 rather than make a cogent argument when questioned in the present thread.

The prevailing argument by McG seems to be "That isn't covered in this thread go see another one.."

But lets get to the bottom of EACH of these "myths". Provide your evidence of where this myth exists McG.. do the same thing for all the myths that you have listed.


ummmmm... no.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 01:07 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Surely you believe that everyone is entitled to a free life, don't you?


Sure I do. But, we fought for ours and they can fight for theirs. Once they are ready to fight for theirs I don't mind supporting them but now is turning out not to be that time.

McGentrix wrote:
The governments of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia asked us for help defendinga against Saddam Hussein. Are you suggesting we should have ignored those pleas? Should we have allowed Hussein to run rampant over the whole penensula? Where would you have stopped him?


Bush I did a fine job at stoping the spread of Saddam. He did it with support from other countries and with far less casualites to American Soldiers then we are seeing today.


McGentrix wrote:
Our economy is oil based. Every thing we do in the US is based around petroleum, there is no denying that. I believe it to be in the best interest of everyone in the US to protect the oil reserves in the middle east. That is one of the reasons we protected the oil fields in Iraq before anything else. Could you imagine the economic and environmental impact of Hussein blowing every well in Iraq? That was his plan. Imagine what Hussein wouold have done had he not been stopped in 91. He would have unlimited funds for his WMDs and his powerful ego would never have been stopped.


We stopped him in '91, but that was then and this is now. He wasn't invading the ME. He wasn't blowing up oil fields. And speaking of oil fields... how is our protection of that oil doing? I just filled up my car with gas that cost 2.50 a gallon.

Oil is tied to the dollar and the ME was fine making their money of off the Euro. Now because of our declining dollar the Euro is worth more then the dollar. The ME cut production, oil costs soar to make up for the declining dollar, our dollar declines even more. Those cheap exports from the factories we sent over seas are costing us more and more every day. If that is what protecting oil fields does... then we are in serious trouble.

McGentrix wrote:
Leaving the middle east would not stop any threats...


Why did 9/11 happen?

McGentrix wrote:
...and it would be a huge economic mistake. We can not allow the worlds oil reserves to be in the hands of mad men. Sorry, but the US will never allow that to happen.


So are you proposing we take over control of all the oil fields in the ME? That sounds a lot to me like the world war we were talking about earlier.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 01:23 pm
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Surely you believe that everyone is entitled to a free life, don't you?


Sure I do. But, we fought for ours and they can fight for theirs. Once they are ready to fight for theirs I don't mind supporting them but now is turning out not to be that time.


I believe it is the duty of the strong to defend the weak. The moderate arabs can not or will not defend themselves against the growing fundamentalist movement taking place in the middle east. It is in the best interests of the US, and free countries everywhere to see to it that the ME does not fall prey to the extremeists. We apparrently differ in our approaches in this matter.

Quote:
McGentrix wrote:
The governments of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia asked us for help defendinga against Saddam Hussein. Are you suggesting we should have ignored those pleas? Should we have allowed Hussein to run rampant over the whole penensula? Where would you have stopped him?


Bush I did a fine job at stoping the spread of Saddam. He did it with support from other countries and with far less casualites to American Soldiers then we are seeing today.


That's because we did not finish the job in '91. We did not relieve Saddam of his position as dictator.

Quote:
McGentrix wrote:
Our economy is oil based. Every thing we do in the US is based around petroleum, there is no denying that. I believe it to be in the best interest of everyone in the US to protect the oil reserves in the middle east. That is one of the reasons we protected the oil fields in Iraq before anything else. Could you imagine the economic and environmental impact of Hussein blowing every well in Iraq? That was his plan. Imagine what Hussein wouold have done had he not been stopped in 91. He would have unlimited funds for his WMDs and his powerful ego would never have been stopped.


We stopped him in '91, but that was then and this is now. He wasn't invading the ME. He wasn't blowing up oil fields. And speaking of oil fields... how is our protection of that oil doing? I just filled up my car with gas that cost 2.50 a gallon.

Oil is tied to the dollar and the ME was fine making their money of off the Euro. Now because of our declining dollar the Euro is worth more then the dollar. The ME cut production, oil costs soar to make up for the declining dollar, our dollar declines even more. Those cheap exports from the factories we sent over seas are costing us more and more every day. If that is what protecting oil fields does... then we are in serious trouble.

McGentrix wrote:
Leaving the middle east would not stop any threats...


Why did 9/11 happen?

McGentrix wrote:
...and it would be a huge economic mistake. We can not allow the worlds oil reserves to be in the hands of mad men. Sorry, but the US will never allow that to happen.


So are you proposing we take over control of all the oil fields in the ME? That sounds a lot to me like the world war we were talking about earlier.


No, I am suggesting we keep control of the oil fields in the hands of those friendly towards the US. As it is now.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 01:27 pm
McGentrix wrote:
No, I am suggesting we keep control of the oil fields in the hands of those friendly towards the US. As it is now.


Even if those friendly to the US are oppressing their own people and preventing democratic reforms from taking hold?
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