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Constructive voices coming from Antifa?

 
 
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2020 11:18 am
Someone on another thread challenged me for putting all of Antifa in one bucket. I have to accept that this is true... I have always assumed the word "Antifa" implied a willingness to resort to violence, or atleast to forced censorship.

So I am open minded. I would like to hear what amount of diversity exists among people who self-identify as "Antifa".

Is there anyone who calls themselves "Antifa" who condemns violence being used as part of political protest?
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Type: Question • Score: 0 • Views: 1,855 • Replies: 100

 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2020 11:52 am
@maxdancona,
I don’t think anyone describes themselves as ‘antifa’ it’s a derogation term used by a right wing Media.

There are plenty of people who would describe themselves as anti fascist which is why the right is loathe to use the correct term.

Then again using far right definitions and terminology is something else you were accused of.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2020 12:06 pm
@izzythepush,
Actually there are Americans who refer to themselves as Antifa. They even have a flag to identify themselves.

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/who-are-antifa

The reason for this thread is because JustAGuy seemed to be defending them.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2020 12:26 pm
Quote:
Antifa is a left-wing, anti-fascist political movement in the United States comprising a diverse array of autonomous groups that aim to achieve their objectives through the use of both nonviolent and violent direct action rather than through policy reform. Described as a highly decentralized movement, antifa political activists are anti-racists who engage in protest tactics, seeking to combat fascists and racists such as neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other far-right extremists. This may sometimes involve digital activism, harassment, militancy, physical violence and property damage against those whom they identify as belonging to the far-right. Antifa involvement in violent actions against far-right opponents and the police has led some scholars to characterize the movement as far-left and militant.

wikipedia

I think the group, or association of groups, is too decentralized to really expect a definitive answer to your question. It's likely that there is a range of positions regarding violence and you won't find anything spelled out in an "Antifa Manifesto" as that would imply an organizational structure which runs counter to the beliefs of most anarchists.

I don't know how many activists the loose organization can count on to show up at its demonstrations but they would need more than a few thousand total to spread themselves around the country — a few dozen of them could show up at a hot spot and cause a disturbance and Fox would report that there were hundreds of them arriving on buses.

If Antifa didn't exist, right-wing extremists would invent something similar. It totally plays into their need to use imaginary or hyped-up "threats" to get out their base. Putin's army of web trolls would also find the group useful. For instance, someone programmed the "Antifa.com" website to redirect to the Biden/Harris website. Anyone can blame anything on "Antifa" — it's highly useful that way.

Quote:
It’s not the first time Biden’s website has been the target of internet hoaxes. In 2019, Republican consulting firm Vici Media Group created joebiden.info, a mock website for the presidential hopeful that featured pictures, videos, and animated GIFs of Biden appearing to kiss and touch young women and girls. The marketing group also created fake websites for other Democratic candidates, including Sens. Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and Kamala Harris.

Since our initial publication of this story, the Antifa.com redirect continued to change, pointing users once again to the official Biden campaign website at some point in late August 2020, according to readers. On Aug. 25, the URL redirected users to a site called It’s Going Down (itsgoingdown.org), a website that described itself as a “community center for anarchist, anti-fascist, autonomous anti-capitalist and anti-colonial movements.” There was no apparent link between either of the websites and the Biden campaign.

snopes



maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2020 03:15 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
I think the group, or association of groups, is too decentralized to really expect a definitive answer to your question. It's likely that there is a range of positions regarding violence and you won't find anything spelled out in an "Antifa Manifesto" as that would imply an organizational structure which runs counter to the beliefs of most anarchists.

I don't know how many activists the loose organization can count on to show up at its demonstrations but they would need more than a few thousand total to spread themselves around the country — a few dozen of them could show up at a hot spot and cause a disturbance and Fox would report that there were hundreds of them arriving on buses.


There are people on the left calling themselves "Antifa". I don't understand why. Can someone explain it?

The reputation of "Antifa" is people who feel that violence is justified for left-wing causes. There are certainly people on the left who are justifying violence (not everyone, but there are some). Antifa is a perfectly good term for this belief.

If it it is just a secret club membership... then Antifa is silly.


izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2020 03:35 pm
@maxdancona,
Why don’t you ask them?
maxdancona
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2020 03:48 pm
@izzythepush,
That is exactly what I am doing on this thread. Read the OP?

So far, no one here has admitted that they support Antifa in any form. If someone came here and said "I support Antifa" and "I do not support violence in support of left-wing causes"... that would be meaningful.
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2020 03:59 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
There are people on the left calling themselves "Antifa".


I've heard it described as a "tendency" as opposed to an "affiliation". Anyone can develop a response to instances of right-wing fascism and feel that more than incremental change is required. No, it's not a secret club.
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2020 04:07 pm
@hightor,
That's a rather vague statement...are you saying that violence is justified or not?
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2020 04:34 pm
@maxdancona,
Clearly you’re doing it in the wrong place.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2020 02:59 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
That's a rather vague statement...

Sure it's "rather vague" — it describes a movement without formal membership.
Quote:
...are you saying that violence is justified or not?

I'm not an antifa spokesman, nor do I personally condone violence. My point is that among antifa there is probably a range of opinions and beliefs regarding the willingness to use violence and its propriety. Sorry I can't be more explicit but honestly, I don't know anyone who claims to operate within the group and the people who do consider themselves to be part of the shadowy movement are purposefully secretive.
0 Replies
 
justaguy2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2020 07:35 am
@maxdancona,
And you wonder why nobody believes your bullshit...

This is what I said:

justaguy2 wrote:
You also post the same rhetoric as people like the OP (and trump himself for that matter) in talking about "ANTIFA" as being a single group, and therefore don't seem to understand that "ANTIFA" is NOT a single group. It's a NUMBER OF GROUPS with similar views, so you throwing a number of groups (and people) all into the same basket, just like trump does, and then acting like you're the hero/the "good guy", and anyone who disagrees is wrong and are therefore the "enemy", destroys the idea you are somehow a "centrist", and therefore your entire defense. That's division, and that's exactly what's tearing your country apart, but you are too blind to see it.


Tell me how that "seemed to be me defending them" ???

And you've done it yet again... first you have no idea that "ANTIFA" is NOT a single group, but use it to attack what you perceive as "the left" in the other thread. Then you say "I seemed the be defending them" in this thread, when I've made no such statement in support of any violence, looting or arson in the name of the BLM movement whatsoever, in any thread whatsoever anywhere in this forum.

You are also, and yet again, dumping a number of groups all into the same basket with this statement:

maxdancona wrote:
Is there anyone who calls themselves "Antifa" who condemns violence being used as part of political protest?


...which is also in direct contradiction to this statement:

maxdancona wrote:
Someone on another thread challenged me for putting all of Antifa in one bucket. I have to accept that this is true... I have always assumed the word "Antifa" implied a willingness to resort to violence, or atleast to forced censorship.


...which also defeats the point of asking the question in the first place. And BTW, you aren't even honest enough the admit "that someone" just happens to be myself.

So you've just single-handedly destroyed the idea that you are somehow different to the likes of the OP of the other thread linked above, along with the idea that you're somehow a "misunderstood centrist being ganged up on here, and therefore the innocent victim".

Your question in your OP barely even makes any sense... if "ANTIFA" is NOT a single group; then how can anyone "self-identify" as being a member of a non-existent group???

I'd suggest if you want genuine discussion with people, at least be honest with them. As it's your consistency and sincerity that are the problem, and therefore your credibility that's the central issue here, not who you say you're voting for in November. As it's YOU that's making it very difficult for me to believe you. As, I speak for myself here, and I don't just go by what others say, I make up my own mind about where I stand, not anyone else here.

And PS: if you honestly think that the USA is the only country in the world that has problems like systemic racism, institutional racism, and similar, you must be living in a pretty big national bubble.

In that case, and I'm sorry to be the one to tell you, but Australia also has similar issues, including in police force's here, and I've dealt with some of those officers personally - as much as the police commissioner in the state I live in wants to be willfully ignorant and pretend that it doesn't and isn't happening. And just like you and your country, the only ways governments here can think of to deal with it is through policy and yet more laws. There have also been protests about many different issues here, including in support of the BLM movement.

But what we don't have here are little redneck police and sheriff departments dotted all over the joint. Each state of Australia has it's own state police force which are also the local police for each part of said state, with each state divided up into "local area commands" (may go under a different name/term depending on the state you're talking about), but still the same police force for the respective state. We don't have nutcases burning down half the city, or looting businesses, even when there is a protest. We don't have easy access to firearms for complete nutcases, and without a license, it would be illegal here to even be in possession of a firearm. But, we DO have universal health care for those that need it.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2020 08:59 am
@justaguy2,
Thank you Justaguy.

When I see the word "Antifa", the image I get is a group of loosely organized extremist fools. I associate the word "Antifa" to the people on the left who are lighting things on fire and advocating violence. This is not an insignificant idea on in the extremist left.. there was a piece on NPR recently where they were justify looting as a valid form of protest.

These are not thoughtful liberals. And, they are not what we need to win the election.

The Joe Biden campaign is now having to do damage control to fix the problems to his campaign being done by people on the left (the very people who should most want Biden to win). Sure, Trump is using the term "antifa" to denigrate liberals... of course he is. If Trump can tie all liberals to these leftist idiots promoting violence, then he wins.

But Trump didn't invent these people. It is a fact that there are extremist idiots on the left promoting violence.

A thoughtful liberal who wants Biden to win will oppose them, not just because it good politics, but because supporting violence for leftist political aims is wrong.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2020 09:19 am
@maxdancona,
You see what Trump tells you to see, on so many issues/definitions you see eye to eye.

The people rioting are opportunist criminals, that’s all they are.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2020 09:33 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The people rioting are opportunist criminals, that’s all they are.


I agree with you completely, Izzy.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2020 09:37 am
@maxdancona,
Then why are you implying they’re left wing activists and using Trump’s own vernacular to describe them as such?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2020 09:39 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Then why are you implying they’re left wing activists and using Trump’s own vernacular to describe them as such?


There are left-wing activists who are defending looting and arson are legitimate forms of protest. These activists had a nice little piece on NPR to explain their perspective.

It was painful to listen to it. There are clear voices from the left defending violence.

izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2020 09:45 am
@maxdancona,
Nobody is defending looting on A2K.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2020 09:53 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Nobody is defending looting on A2K.


In that case, this should have been a very short Thread Wink
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2020 10:00 am
@maxdancona,
It should, but you won’t stop tilting at windmills.
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