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Natalie Holloway Case

 
 
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2005 03:42 am
For the past week or so in the news they've been saying that they're debating whether to hold that Van Der Sloot kid in jail for another few months. (I'm not sure about the other guys who were arrested). Different channels sometimes have different info, but I heard one of them say that they're pretty close to charging the kid with murder.

My question is.....if they haven't found her body yet, how can they charge anyone with her murder? I mean, however unlikely it may be, it's still totally possible that she just ran away to South America or something, isn't it?

What if they found something in his house with her blood on it? Would that be grounds for a murder charge? I don't doubt that the kids had something to do with her disappearance, because apparently their stories have been inconsistent. But I just don't see how you can charge for murder with no victim. (I'm aware that it's not America, but I thought that would be a pretty consistent law.)
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2005 10:18 pm
corpus delecti
Even if a body has not been found, the crime of murder may be proven by the weight of circumstantial evidence only.

Aruba A.G: Prosecution possible without body

Quote:
Aruban officials have said previously a murder conviction is possible without a body, but the case requires strong evidence such as a confession, reliable statements and forensic evidence of wrongdoing. Aruba is a Dutch protectorate and as such operates under Dutch law.

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CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2005 03:39 pm
Debra,

Does Aruban law differ from US law in the crime of murder if there is no body?

Has there ever been a case that you know of where no body was found but someone was convicted by circumstantial evidence?
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2005 04:53 pm
Prosecuting a murder without the victim's body or physical evidence is difficult, but not impossible.

Here's a short article on the subject:

No-body murder cases often reach jury some win

Quote:
. . . A half-century ago, no-cause-of-death and no-body prosecutions were unheard of. That changed when a Los Angeles jury in 1957 did not buy paint salesman L. Ewing Scott's "no body, no crime" defense. He served 21 years of a life sentence for having murdered his wife and confessed a year before his death in 1987.

Since then, such cases have slowly gained more acceptance. Nowadays, they are among the highest-profile cases in the nation. Los Angeles County alone has prosecuted dozens. . . .

* * *

N0-BODY CASES

Here are some examples of prosecution in slayings in which authorities did not recover the bodies:

MARCH 2003 -- A mistrial is declared in the murder case of Bruce Koklich. He is suspected of murdering the late state Sen. Paul Carpenter's daughter, whose body has not been found. A second trial is scheduled to start May 22.

FEBRUARY 2003 -- A Santa Clara County jury convicts Gustavo Covian in the 1998 murder-for-hire slaying of Young Kim, whose body has never been recovered. The victim's wife, who allegedly paid Covian $100,000, and two others are expected to stand trial soon.

JANUARY 2003 -- Authorities in the Philippines arrest Joseph Eli Morrow on suspicion of killing his wife after a violent argument in Menlo Park 11 years earlier. Her body has never been found.

SEPTEMBER 2000 -- Thomas Sax and Tommy Ray Daigle blame a 21-year-old man for the drunken driving arrest of a friend, then beat and strangle him and dump the body in a garbage bin in Florida. Authorities search a landfill for nearly a week in vain. Sax and Daigle are convicted of murder anyway.

JULY 2000 -- A Merced County jury convicts Adolfo Romo Martinez of murdering his companion, Lilia Anguiano of Los Banos. Neighbors saw them talking together shortly before she disappeared; her body has never been found.

2000 -- Sante Kimes and her son, Kenneth Kimes, are convicted in New York for killing their wealthy landlady, whose corpse has never been found.

1999 -- Prominent Delaware lawyer Thomas Capano is sentenced to death for killing his mistress because she wanted to end their secret affair. He dumped her body in the Atlantic Ocean and it was never recovered.

1986 --Richard Crafts bludgeons his wife to death in Connecticut, stores her body in a freezer, dismembers it with a chain saw and runs the frozen pieces through a two-ton wood chipper, scattering the pieces into the Housatonic River. Investigators eventually recover minuscule bits of bone and hair. Though DNA matching was not then available, Crafts is convicted.

1985 -- Dr. Robert Bierenbaum dumps his wife's body in the Atlantic Ocean from a private airplane and it is never recovered. Fifteen years later, a jury -- convinced by a stream of circumstantial evidence -- convicts him.

1982 -- Mark Christopher Crew fleeces his bride out of her life savings, shoots and dismembers her, and dumps body parts off the Dumbarton Bridge across San Francisco Bay. He is eventually sentenced to death.

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CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jul, 2005 09:46 pm
Looks like it happens more often than I thought.

Thanks Debra.
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bamygirl
 
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Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 10:24 am
Natalie Holloway
I PROMISE YOU THAT IF ALL THE US CITIZENS WHO HAVE VACATIONS PLANNED TO ARUBA WOULD CANCEL, THE ARUBAN GOVERNMENT WOULD GET TO THE BOTTOM OF NATALIE'S DISAPPEARANCE. IT IS ABSURD TO THINK THAT ALL OF THESE SO-CALLED INVESTIGATORS/INTERROGATORS CANNOT BREAK ONE YOUNG MAN DOWN. I BELIEVE IF THESE INVESTIGATORS WOULD JUST "PUT IT WHERE THE GOATS CAN GET IT" TO THESE OTHER TWO BOYS, THEN THEY WOULD MOST DEFINITELY GET SOME ANSWERS.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 10:40 am
latest report: blond hairs found in aruba sent for dna testing. results may be known as early as tomorrow.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 10:46 am
After Holloway's disappearance and the bungled investigation, I can promise you--I will NEVER vacation in Aruba. It's not an island paradise if you have to worry about becoming prey to island criminals. I would strenuously discourage all the people I know from EVER going there on vacation.

I believe many Americans share a similar sentiment and the Aruban tourist industry will suffer.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 11:03 am
Debra,

Isn't this case more about teenagers than "island criminals"? Something terrible happened between 2 teenagers. I can identify with the nightmare that both sets of parents are going through. (I have 2 daughters and 2 sons.)
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Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 11:19 am
I think I agree with wandeljw. I have been to Aruba and as far as any of the other Caribbean islands that I have been to - Aruba is by far the safest. I traveled by jeep to all areas of the island - remote and otherwise - and the most dangerous thing I ran into was a drunk Aruban wanting to give us a tour of a rock formation garden.

This appears to me to be unfortunately a bad decision by a teenager. The same thing could have happened in any town in the US. A young woman accepting a ride from 3 young men that she didn't really know….

How many other incidents have you heard of in Aruba? The investigation is still going on - it does not mean that the Aruban government bungled anything (at least not yet).
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 11:42 am
An island community that depends on tourism for the bulk of its economic prosperity cannot maintain that prosperity if the tourists must fear falling victim to crime.

Neither the age of the victim nor the age of the suspected perpetrator are relevant. It makes no difference if Aruba is relatively "safe" and has only one drunk, horny young perpetrator (criminal) who can't take "no" for an answer and rapes and murders . . . the entire tourist industry will suffer if the Aruban authorities are unable to solve the mystery of Holloway's disappearance.

Someone disposed of her body to hide evidence of a crime and the stench of foul play cannot be eliminated with any kind of minimization.

I'm not going to blame the victim, Natalie Holloway, by chalking her disappearance up to her bad decision to get into a car with three strangers. If she felt that she was safe in Aruba in the company of its residents . . . she shouldn't have felt safe. In the future, no one should feel safe from crime when they vacation in Aruba.

Again. I will NEVER vacation in Aruba.
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Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 12:05 pm
The last thing I was doing was blaming the victim. Making a bad decision should not result in death. It certainly is not her fault, but it is also not the Aruban government's fault - it is the criminal's fault.

Your statement of "If she felt that she was safe in Aruba in the company of its residents . . . she shouldn't have felt safe." Is very true. People should exercise caution where ever they are. It is unfortunate that we need to exercise such caution, but it is the reality of the world we live in - even on vacation on a relatively safe island.

I will vacation in Aruba again and anyone I know that has vacationed in Aruba has voiced the same.
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Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 12:07 pm
Unfortunately most places have had a murder or two. As a result we can never be 100% safe any where.

Recently in St. Thomas....
"Two St Thomas men have been arrested in the shooting deaths of Tristan A. Charlier, 24, and Leon H. Roberts, 25.

The Queens, New York residents, who were visiting St Thomas to attend a wedding, were shot and killed on June 15, less than 14 hours after arriving on-island."
http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/2005/07/04/murders.shtml

I am not even going to mention the murder rate on Jamaica. Both of these islands I have vacationed on.

Last fall...."NASSAU, Bahamas (AP) - Police are investigating the brutal slayings of two people on an outlying Bahamian island where an American business woman was mutilated and killed, and her friend was found shot to death, police said yesterday."

I can easily go to any search engine and simply type in the island and murder and there always seems to be some unfortunate victim.

For that matter, I can do this with anytown, USA and more likely than not will also find a recent murder or two.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 01:04 pm
I don't live in an area where anyone has become desensitized to murder.

Like it or not, the disappearance and likely murder of Natalie Holloway and the stench of foul play will cause the tourism industry in Aruba to suffer. I'm not going to reward the Arubans for their agonizing inability to do justice for Natalie's family by going there on vacation. I'm sure there are tons of people who feel the same as I do.
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Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 01:21 pm
I certainly am not desensitized either, however, I am realistic.

Whether some one vacations some where or not and for whatever reason they do or do not is a personal reason. But to base not going some where because the media has sensationalized one murder over another is a bit far fetched.

Why has not the murders that occurred recently in St. Thomas been publicized to this extent?

Today I look at the local newspaper and sadly it is full of horrible stories....stabbings, children being hurt or killed or kidnapped. Sometimes these stories get to me to the extent I refuse to read or watch the news. However, I still get up and get my kids ready, go to work. I don't move and change jobs because a murder happened in my home town or in the city I work.
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 04:58 pm
Ironcially the label "island paradise" probably made Ms. Holliday's decision to go off with three strangers seem more sensible. After all, what evil could happen in paradise?
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 05:11 pm
I read an article on tourism and crime. When people vacation on an island paradise, they fail to take the safety measures that they would normally take at home. The purpose of vacationing is to let your hair down, let go of the stresses of everyday life, and have carefree fun.

After the murder of vacationing tourists in St. Croix in the '70's (also sensationalized by the media), it took more than a decade and an extensive (& expensive) advertising campaign for the island to rebuild its tourist industry.
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boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 05:17 pm
My brother has traveled all over the world.

On one flight, before landing they gave a little speech about how to protect yourself against crime in this violent city.

The flight was landing in Miami.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 05:24 pm
I wouldn't want to vacation in Miami or anywhere else in Florida. Castro cleaned out his jails and prisons and sent thousands of Cuba's most violent offenders to live in Florida.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 05:27 pm
Based on the rate of unsolved murders, I'm going to reconsider vacationing in the U.S.
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