5
   

Why scientists are studying chloroquine

 
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:47 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I suppose there are two definitions the word "extremist"

Definition 1: An extremist is someone who evaluates any claim based on evidence. Sometimes they agree with one political party. Sometimes they agree with the other party. When people on their "side" are wrong, they hold them accountable. Sometimes they disagree with people in their own party.

Definition 2: An extremist is someone who holds to one party and one set of political ideologies. They demand purity. They label anyone who disagrees with any part of their ideology as an enemy (or a "fascist"). They reject any fact or evidence that calls their beliefs into question.

Izzy is using definition 1. I subscribe to definition 2.


Are we really so polarized?

I don't accept this requirement for ideological purity, as if agreeing with a Republican on a single point makes you a fascist.


izzythepush
 
  5  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:59 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I am proud of the fact that sometimes I agree with Izzy and sometimes with Oralloy.

What you say depends on who you’re talking to. You’re fickle, you say things to impress or shock. You’re dishonest, I don’t believe a word you say.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  6  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:10 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


Are we really so polarized?

I don't accept this requirement for ideological purity, as if agreeing with a Republican on a single point makes you a fascist.





This is another example of your duplicity, nobody said anything about ideological purity. This is you finding a straw man to argue against because you have nothing.

You were the one who depicted all criticism of Trump in this matter as “extreme left.” Boris Johnson has refused to take Trump’s advice re treatment preferring that of those who are medically qualified.

He’s hardly centre right, but your blanket definition calls him extreme left. And if you consider Johnson extreme left you have to be a fascist.

You really have a problem with words.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2020 07:31 am
7 Answers to Questions About the Malaria Drug Trump Keeps Pushing
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2020 07:35 am
@hightor,
I don't like the fact that people must subscribe to The Times, or The The Washington Post for that matter, in order to read their content. Can you summarize their seven points?
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2020 08:08 am
@Setanta,
(Understandable. I think all the covid19 news is offered for free, but you have to register. It's worth looking into. The story is well-sourced with embedded links that I haven't included.)

Quote:
There is no proof that any drug can cure or prevent infection with the coronavirus. But in the face of an exploding pandemic with a frightening death toll, people are desperate for a bit of hope, a chance to believe there is something that will help.

The drug that has received the most attention is hydroxychloroquine, which President Trump has recommended repeatedly, despite warnings from his own health officials that there is little data to support its widespread use as a treatment against the virus.

Drug companies across the world have begun donating tens of millions of doses of hydroxychloroquine to the United States, and the president said on April 4 that 29 million doses had been added to the National Strategic Stockpile, a cache of medical supplies maintained by the government to respond to emergencies.

What is hydroxychloroquine?

Hydroxychloroquine is a prescription medicine that was approved decades ago to treat malaria. It is also used to treat autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and lupus. It is sometimes referred to by its brand name, Plaquenil, and is closely related to chloroquine, which is also used to treat malaria.

Why has hydroxychloroquine even been considered as a possible treatment for the coronavirus?


There are several reasons. A promising laboratory study, with cultured cells, found that chloroquine could block the coronavirus from invading cells, which it must do to replicate and cause illness. However, drugs that conquer viruses in test tubes or petri dishes do not always work in the human body, and studies of hydroxychloroquine have found that it failed to prevent or treat influenza and other viral illnesses.

Reports from doctors in China and France have said that hydroxychloroquine, sometimes combined with the antibiotic azithromycin, seemed to help patients. But those studies were small and did not use proper control groups — patients carefully selected to match those in the experimental group but who are not given the drug being tested. Research involving few patients and no controls cannot determine whether a drug works. And the French study has since been discredited: The scientific group that oversees the journal where it was published said the study did not meet its standards.

A recent study from China did include a control group, and suggested that hydroxychloroquine might help patients with mild cases of Covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus. But that study had limitations: It was also small, with a total of only 62 patients, and they were given various other drugs as well as hydroxychloroquine. The doctors evaluating the results knew which patients were being treated, and that information could have influenced their judgment. Even if the findings hold up, they will apply only to people who are mildly ill. And the researchers themselves said more studies were needed.

Another reason the drug has been considered for coronavirus patients is that it can rein in an overactive immune system, which is why it is used to treat lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. In some severe cases of Covid-19, the immune system seems to go into overdrive and cause inflammation that can damage the lungs and other organs. Doctors hope hydroxychloroquine might calm the condition, sometimes called a cytokine storm, but so far there is no proof that it has that effect.

Can hydroxychloroquine protect you from catching the virus?

There is no evidence that hydroxychloroquine can prevent coronavirus infection. However, researchers at the University of Minnesota are testing the drug in people who live with coronavirus patients to see whether it can protect them.

Is hydroxychloroquine approved by the Food and Drug Administration?

Yes, but for malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, not for Covid-19. For decades, doctors have been legally allowed to prescribe it for any condition they think it might help, a practice called off-label use. However, because of hoarding and high demand for hydroxychloroquine, some states like New York have ordered pharmacists to fill prescriptions only for F.D.A.-approved uses of the drug or for people participating in clinical trials.

In late March, the F.D.A. granted emergency approval to allow hospitals to use hydroxychloroquine from the national stockpile to treat patients who would not otherwise qualify for a clinical trial. Under the approval, patients and their families will receive information about the drug, and hospitals have to track information about the patients who received the drug, including their health condition and serious side effects. But that F.D.A.’s authorization for emergency use is not equivalent to meeting federal requirements, including scientific evidence through trials, that would deem hydroxychloroquine a proven treatment against the virus.

Is hydroxychloroquine being given to coronavirus patients now?

Yes. Many hospitals are giving it to patients because there is no proven treatment, and they hope it will help. Clinical trials with control groups have begun across the world. A nationwide trial began on April 2 in the United States; it is to enroll 510 patients at 44 medical centers.

Researchers say those studies are essential to find out whether the drug works against the coronavirus. If it does not, time and money can be redirected to other potential treatments.

Is there any danger in taking hydroxychloroquine?

Like every drug, it can have side effects. It is not safe for people who have abnormalities in their heart rhythms, eye problems involving the retina, or liver or kidney disease. Other possible side effects include nausea, diarrhea, mood changes and skin rashes.

The leaders of three professional societies in cardiology warned on April 8 in the journal Circulation that hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin can each cause dangerous disruptions in heart rhythm, and they wrote, “There are very limited data evaluating the safety of combination therapy.”

Overall, it is considered relatively safe for people who do not have underlying illnesses that the drug is known to worsen. But it is not known whether hydroxychloroquine is safe for severely ill Covid-19 patients, who may have organ damage from the virus.

If I can get hydroxychloroquine, should I take it to prevent coronavirus infection?

No, especially not without consulting a doctor who knows your medical history and what other medications you are taking. There is no proof that it works. And if it is being sold on the street or via the internet, it may be fake or unsafe.

An Arizona man in his 60s died last month after swallowing an aquarium cleaning product that had chloroquine on its label. He and his wife, who also became critically ill, had thought the product would protect them from the virus.

At this point, the best way to avoid infection is to practice the social-distancing and quarantine measures recommended by public health authorities. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention also recommends that people wear cloth masks in public and wash their hands regularly.


Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2020 08:13 am
@hightor,
Thanks, Boss, I appreciate your effort. I tried going in via Facebook, but then they wanted my e-mail address and other information I don't even give out to my family (such as they are). Again, my thanks.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2020 08:53 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix, if you ignore the political nastiness...

I think everyone here agrees with you.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2020 01:20 pm
Quote:
No, especially not without consulting a doctor who knows your medical history and what other medications you are taking. There is no proof that it works. And if it is being sold on the street or via the internet, it may be fake or unsafe.

I have seen plenty of people on the news it has worked on. That is proof it works on some (probably a lot). Would people rather it did not and they who survived died?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2020 01:39 pm
@hightor,
The Girl opened her Facebook account, and voilà, we can now read the NYT story. Thanks again for all of your trouble.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2020 01:45 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

McGentrix, if you ignore the political nastiness...

I think everyone here agrees with you.



I would like to see the media start to agree as well.
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2020 05:20 am
@McGentrix,
I do not. The rules of science do dictate that we not spread false information knowingly. Only double blind studies with pacebos ON INFECTED INDIVIDUALS will enable us to evaluate the use of this. The "pile on" by both sides of the political aisle is, of course stupid and hasgotten toxic itself.

The paper you quoted up front had several major rrors with the big one asserting HOW the Hydroxycholoroquine really works.
There are about 4 other known drug with potential antiviral proprties that are being looked at QUIETLY. Im ure the guys working with HDC dont want all this publicity.

At the same time are studies of possible "herd immunity" effects as studies in Germany have come up with a range of potential immunity. (herd immunity kicks in at about 60% of the population with antibodies). However,but all their studies are possibly held back by some bad testing procedures and tests themselves)
At the same time Lash found information in Korea that some people, alrady cured, are showing "REINFECTION" with the antigen. There is reason to believe that the Korean tests may have some "false positive" rporting , or, if true, the antigen may be reactivated.

What we need is a quick series of highly accurate tests that provide antibody/antigen data so all these studies can be properly interpreted.
We are like at the age of flight, except we are just at the time slightly after the first flight at Kitty Hawk and still not at the time of the "Wright Flyer".
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2020 06:46 pm
@maxdancona,
I`d give you and McG a thumbs up on this one, but looks like it'd be kind of pointless.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2020 07:47 pm
@Leadfoot,
I see they announced that one of the Hydroxychloroquine (HDC)studies was being terminated because it wasnt showing any positive results in an infection/recovery/CFR cycle, in fact using HDC the control population, those only getting regular and paliative cares were fairing better.But There were only about 100 in that one in Boston (I believe). The study at Hopkins ill still go on for sveral infection cycls for many more patients.

Now Japan's , PM is hawking his own "miracle drug", AVEGON. Mr Abe has released several million doses to various countris to begin research on its ffectiveness. The difference between the two is that Avegon has a longer history as an anti-viral drug, not a hemical reaction involving an organic peroxide to fake the virus into dessicating itself once it attaches to a receptor site.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2020 07:58 pm
@farmerman,
I do have to say that I found out about HDC on CNBC after Trump talked about it. Their science editor came on and had a few pharma scientists and a Bio-statistician talk about testing the drug and the process of how drugs need to have rigorous studies completed before they can add to the efficacy labeling.
What I heard about it on FOX was only from Hannity. I asked a contact at the Philly FOX affiliate whether Fox even HAD ANY SCIENCE STAFFERS. He wasnt sure.
When the Avedon information came from Japan, I heard it on CNN and it was Blitzer who called up CNN's Science reporters (IN JAPAN).
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2020 08:29 pm
@farmerman,
seems that the hope surrounding HDC is not to be. Several more long term tudies have been stopped early because of cardiac problems on the patients receiving the second dose of HDC.

The opening up of studies involving antibody and NK/Tcell harvesting on recovered covid patients is going big time all over the world. Germany US ,Japan, China, UK,France and probably several others.(Russian biology is still kind of a joke).Effective Vaccines were made of harvested antibodies,DNA and live T cells has been effective since day 1 on such diseases as
Yellow Fever
Diphtheria
Polio
malaria
Cowpox
Chaga's
HIV s(some of the first ffective vaccines
Ebola (100% effective vaccines involving harvesting based on 5 different vaccine prep technologies

These were tried and true techniques ever since the first use in treating diphtheria. I was wondering when any news group would start reporting on them .Neither the right nor left of the MSM's did squat on giving us any news. Maybe theyre just not too bright over at FOX and CNN.

China an Japan have announced they would be doing human testing as compassionate use (and research ). So the initial uses will NOT be double blind. I suppose if the results appear promising they would stop the test use and begin a double blind. Im not sure how it would work.
glitterbag
 
  4  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2020 09:46 pm
@farmerman,
I'm more than happy for the scientists to look at everything. It's what scientists do, or at least what they are supposed to do. I have no bias against any particular medication, but I know from personal experience that not everyone in this country can tolerate all the recommended medications. I'm allergic to penicillin, I break out in hives, my tongue swells and my throat closes. So I avoid penicillin because I don't want to asphyxiate myself.

But we really need to let the researchers do their jobs without hysterics from the pro or con medicine clans. We are all anxious because we don't really know how to treat this pandemic...but it's dangerous to blindly cling to unproven 'cures' .... I honestly think that Trump is just offering snake oil, but I still want it studied so hopefully it will be the answer to the problem. I don't want him to be wrong, I am desperate for the day he actually is right. The latest figure I saw tonight was 23,000 Americans dead from the COVID-19.......I don't know how many more will die, I just want it to be over.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2020 09:47 pm
@glitterbag,
Quote:
23,000 Americans dead from the COVID-19

Out of 330 million.
glitterbag
 
  3  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2020 09:59 pm
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:

Quote:
23,000 Americans dead from the COVID-19

Out of 330 million.


oh thank you mr. stats....its not as significant as 4 lost in a war zone 'Benghazi' for instance, right? You're to be pitied, but I think thats God's job.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2020 10:23 pm
@glitterbag,
Quote:
its not as significant as 4 lost in a war zone 'Benghazi'

That happened because of power hungry corrupt people. This is a virus, an act of God. Not an old drunken hag like Killary who thinks she is God.
 

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