MARINES'S FAMILY commenting on death in chopper crash

Asherman,

Were you a recruiter? Just curious because that sounds just like their sales pitch. I spoke to my recruiter this week, I still have an interest in the military but I must say that their drivel decreases my interest.

To put it simply the military is not "the best". It's for people like me, who have few options. For this reason it is comprised mostly of the worst.

Have to agree with edgarblyth, asherman, and craven. Only having been in the bowels of the south for some seven years, I am very impressed by what view options are open to people. Also, in a minimum-wage economy when they do get home and out of service, the temptations for extra income by staying in the reserves is very strong.

Asherman
Ok. You convinced me where do I signup.

Craven,

No, I've never been responsible for recruiting. Well, I did my best to recruit you for our Intelligence services. You aren't a young person with "few options", you are one of the best and that is why I would still like you to give serious consideration to enlising with a specialty in one of the Intelligence fields.

BTW, that isn't drivel to a lot of dedicated men and women, but the thing that makes all the sacrifice worthwhile. Duty, Honor, Country are powerful things and they are demanding in a world where self-interest too often comes first.

Au,

Ah, I'm afraid the best I can offer is an Arm-Chair Colonel commision. Best hurry though, not many slots left. However, we do have many, many openings for basic Arm-Chair Rifleman. Start at the bottom and work up.

My family is military, my father was Army Air Force and then Air Force INTEL at Lowery AFB and NORAD, one uncle was in WWI and WWII; a Marine in the pacific, another Uncle was at Pearl Harbor and another Uncle at the Battle of the Bulge. All of my cousins of age were in the military either before, during, and after Vietnam. I was married to a Naval Aviator. My former father-in-law was the youngest full commander in the Navy, submarines during Korea and then CIA Station Chief in Athens, Greece. Currently I have a brother-in-law serving as the Commander of a submarine. He is not happy about this war or the motives of the Commander-In-Chief.

These men were all anti war, they did what they thought was right at the time, but they did not support Vietnam war. While I was a Navy wife, during the Vietnam era I encountered many military men and their wives that did not agree with the US policy in Vietnam.

This is such a clear cut issue as some like to think.

No no, I'm not saying the service nor the slogans are drivel I'm saying that the sales pitch the recruiter gives is. I can't say my brother didn't warn me. He said, they'd say anything to get you in. And they do, it's like talking to a used car salesman every time lol.

BTW, Intel is still what I'd have chosen but they were pushing linguist (higher entry rank et al.).

On what basis do you say that people ae better when they come in than when they go out, Asher - other than by added experience?

I am interested for a number of reasons - but partly because my step-son is in our army (after years in the reserves) - which he has always been very keen on - despite family feelings, I might add - he is now struggling with the reality of what he has chosen.

He is shocked by the sexism, racism and general ignorance of his peers, having returned quite traumatised and challenged by these things when he was deployed to East Timor - after a youth spent with involvement in the East Timor Independence Movement. It is fascinating to discuss these things with him as he strives to make sense of it all.

He is a wonderful young man - and I have no doubt - if he survives his current deployment in Iraq - that he will somehow manage to reconcile his love for the Army with his horror at the attitudes of so many of its personnel - or leave. We grow by adversity - so perhaps this explains what you mean by coming out better than you went in - but frankly I can think of a lot of other places he would have grown equally in stature.

Recruiters will say any thing to meet there quota that is why so many vets cannot understand why they do not get to use military medical facilities and have to opt for Medicare. Dependants do get medical care but it can be withdrawn at any time. The Soldiers and Sailors Act does not cover dependants nor medical care after retirement. When I worked at SSA in Alexandria, VA, the servicing office for the Pentagon we did a huge volume of social security card applications from junior enlisted men for there children so they could get food stamps.

In addition, there were a large number of children of military on SSI, yes welfare for the disabled, because they were either born disabled or went nuts. It was actually shocking the number of kids that were emotionally deprived and collapsed in their first year of college. You have to wonder what happens the children of career officers.

For example Admiral Morrison's son Jim, his dad the commander of the air group my ex was in would not allow the sailors to listen to The Doors on the Hancock. The son of the CO of Naval Air Station, North Island, poured gasoline on himself and lit a match at UCSD to protest the Vietnam war. Admiral Zumwalt's son died of cancer brought on by exposure to the Agent Orange his father ordered dropped to defoliate the jungles of Vietnam.

The military is a conundrum to me. Valor and honor exist but an unjust war not supported by the people of the world cannot make a hero out of anyone.

aloha jd, to the first part of your post, that's basically true, i used to recruit for the marine corps. recruiting is supposed to be a great career move but i found that i just couldn't sugar coat anything. if the potential recruits asked about how hard it was, i told them. if i thought some of them wouldn't be mentally tough enough, i told them so and pointed down the hall to the army, navy, and airforce recruiting offices. you have to understand though that the recruiters are under pressure to recruit. the brass wants numbers. i used to get calls every other day to see what our numbers were. i still remember that s.o.b. colonel's name too.

as for the second part, who can say what is just or unjust? i still don't find compelling evidence to agree that this incursion is not supported by the people of the world.

I feel as if I should be some kind of subject matter expert since I am presently on active duty, but it really is a conundrum. The problem is, you can drown it in all the platitudes and slogans you want, but military life is exactly identical to civilian life in a couple of very important respects: It is what you make it, and it is made up of all kinds of people. To try to assign certain attributes of special nobility or selflessness to those in uniform is folly, because there really is a whole spectrum of motivations for coming, and for staying. I've met some of the best, and worst, people I've ever known in the Army. There are those who serve mindlessly and without question. There are those (particularly the young - I had a conflict recently with a student questioning the "justification" for my trying to "drop" him for 10 pushups as a spot correction) who question everything and serve only themselves. Yes, we are bound, once we sign on the dotted line by the common obligation to answer the call to fight. But make no mistake about it - we who are "inside" have no fewer moments of doubt about the sanity of our leaders, and no fewer aspirations and hopes for ourselves, our country or our world.

My ex upon returning from Japan was assigned to recruiting duty, ugh. The quotas were impossible and the pressure unbearable. Like you he was unable to sugar coat and was transferred back to his squadron in San Diego.

The unjust part is of course my opinion only and you are right I am not able to make such a judgment at all. I just get sick and tired of hearing our president saying, "our cause is just" when referring to our invasion of Iraq.

One other thing I think you all should know about my Vietnam experience. Starting in 1968 and ending in 1970, I was part of what they called at that time the "civilization program". My job was to replace sailors who were needed in Vietnam. As a civilian I worked in the Flag Office of the Vice Admiral in charge of Amphibious Forces Pacific, the brown water Navy. My job was well very sensitive and I had access to a lot of information. Information which while I was never in country gave me more than just a cursory view of what was going on in Vietnam.

Sometimes I was privy to an overview which many of our forces were not. I had access to information about battle plans, military strategy, and actual results.

For example the fact that Seal Teams existed was not generally known until they were outted in the comic strip Buzz Sawyer. Doesn't that take the cake. There were other special warfare operations which were not known to the public and of course are still not known to the public.

Sometimes I get the feeling some posters don't always understand the extent of my knowledge of that war. It is because of the detailed information I had access to and was responsible for that I am so against all war not just the current action. As most of you know the Marines and Amphibs work hand and hand in operational activity.

Having lived in the San Diego area for some time I am very attached to these young men and women. But even more so I relate to the parents, wives, and siblings left behind. Their lives will never the same again as they are forever in a state of grief. One thing I really hope for is that the causality rate remains very low since families are now getting phone calls from commanding officers re the their loss.

During Jim's tour as a recruiter part of the "other duties as assigned" was the notifications to the families living in Columbus, OH, of the death in Vietnam of their loved one. You see there were so many, mostly men of color, and it was more than awful. The Navy sends an officer and NCO to the home to notify.

It is late and this might not make sense but I love our sailors and soldiers. It is the politicians that make me nuts.

Amen, Joanne.