5
   

Einsteins special relativity nonsense

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Fri 28 Feb, 2020 03:45 pm
@BillRM,
Geez, I wish I had time for more courses!

Right now I am writing software that has to map x,y coordinates (in pixels) reported by a sensor that can be installed at any weird angle to GIS coordinates (latitude, longitude). My challenge is to get the system to do this math done fast. With hundreds of thousands of sensors reporting all the time if it isn't fast, the end product (which is supposed to be real time) will back up.

The math is nicely Euclidean. It is a bit of a pain because using a matrix library costs too much in terms of performance!

I tell my daughter who is in high school how much I want to go back to school. I would love to get an economics degree.

She doesn't relate.
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 28 Feb, 2020 08:35 pm
@maxdancona,
I remember getting interest in economics to the point that I found myself in a graduate level 600 course in computer modeling of economic systems with such titles as First order differential and the growth of income and debt.

I kept the book in my library from that course all those decades ago due to enjoying it so greatly.

What was very very amusing was there was at the time zero economic majors taking the course as they did not seem to have the mathematical background for the course. The students taking the course at the time mainly have majors in science or engineering.

To this day I could never figure out how this could had occur at a major university.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 28 Feb, 2020 08:54 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Geez, I wish I had time for more courses!

Right now I am writing software that has to map x,y coordinates (in pixels) reported by a sensor that can be installed at any weird angle to GIS coordinates (latitude, longitude). My challenge is to get the system to do this math done fast. With hundreds of thousands of sensors reporting all the time if it isn't fast, the end product (which is supposed to be real time) will back up.

The math is nicely Euclidean. It is a bit of a pain because using a matrix library costs too much in terms of performance!

Quote:


In the old days someone might just had thrown together an analog system to deal with such a problem but now no one think analog.

Hell in the early days of chip logic with RTL chips my company have one Phd engineer design a device using RTL with core ring memory an the engineer owner without a degree went analog design that used a fraction of the power and work far better.


maxdancona
 
  1  
Fri 28 Feb, 2020 09:03 pm
@BillRM,
What I do is all on the "cloud", big data, map-reduce, lambdas, blah blah blah. It is supposed to be infinitely scalable. Everything in my world is an abstraction built on abstractions.

I get uncomfortable around hardware Wink
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 10:34 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Lava,

You might want to know that your play partner in this is expressing some rather troubling antisemitic views. This might be relevant in a thread attacking Einstein.

justafool44 wrote:
Its a well known fact that forums worldwide are monitored by watchdog shills from the Zionist state of Israel, and they have a large permanent band of workers who attack anyone who tries to show that 911 was an inside job, run by Mossad and CIA.


You and I disagree on science. I don't think either one of us should be playing with this type of hateful crap.

I'm not 'playing with anything . . .' just trying to discuss relativity. If you understand it, maybe you should be explaining what you understand.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 10:43 am
@livinglava,
I understand that Lava. I am not blaming you. Neither of us had any way of knowing that this guy is an antisemite.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 10:47 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

2) In Physics, and definitely in GR, it's all about the math. If two theories make the exact same predictions they are equivalent theories. This is true even if they are based on ideas that seem very different to us. They are functionally the same, and if one is correct they other is equally correct.

So if we use the same equation to describe a falling object, it's just as good to say it's being pushed by invisible fairies as to flesh out a more reasonable theory of gravitation?

Quote:
4) I am not sure if I understand your question for GR. Asking a question about "why" something is in Physics is seldom useful.

Why does space curve? Answer: because it's a real topographical matrix of possible paths of motion and not an imaginary grid of straight lines.

Quote:
The math gives the answers that it gives. The why? simply "because that's the answer".

I think this article is trying to provide a nice story for non-scientists. Scientists don't need the nice stories... and often they get in the way of understanding.

It may be hard for some mathematicians to understand that an imaginary grid of straight lines can be a useful analytical tool without being an actual aspect of the empirical reality being analyzed.

It is easy to assume that everything that factors into a well-tested equation doesn't necessarily represent something real outside the equation. The temptation is to equate usefulness within an equation to existence outside the equation.

Analysis and the reality analyzed occur in different 'planes' of existence.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 11:00 am
@livinglava,
I am not sure if I want to get pulled in to this again. A lot of your problems are caused by the fact that you haven't taken the time to study mathematics. What we are doing is not going to teach you mathematics.

1. You have this weird view of Science that it is based on what is "reasonable". The word is a horrible word for science because you are basing "truth" on what makes sense to you.

2. Scientific theories are proved correct if they can make accurate, specific testable predictions on how things will work that match with actual experiments. Two theories that lead to the exact same predictions are equivalent because it it the experimental confirmation that matters in science.

3. Your fairy theory isn't very testable ... I suppose we could have Newtonian fairies that pulls things towards each other with a force inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them and proportional to their masses . The fact that you use the word "fairy" doesn't make the theory either more or less scientific.

4. Curved space is a mathematical term used for functions in tensor space. You can not possibly understand what it means until you have learned the mathematics. This should upset you because this is a mathematical term for a mathematical concept.

5. For that matter, if you aren't going to learn the mathematics, why are you using mathematical terms anyway?

livinglava
 
  1  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 11:35 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I am not sure if I want to get pulled in to this again. A lot of your problems are caused by the fact that you haven't taken the time to study mathematics. What we are doing is not going to teach you mathematics.

I learned math. I just don't like spending time on abstractions that are cumbersome when you're trying to sketch out complex ecological networks of interactions that are what make scientific analysis actually meaningful.

Imagine if you had a complex equation for modeling the structures and functions of each tree, plant, and animal that occurs within a forest, along with all the hydrological features, soil features, etc. Such a simulation would be mathematically robust, but nevertheless artificial and cartoonish, while requiring huge amounts of processing.

Whether you call it 'fuzzy logic' or estimation or whatever, it is more efficient to use math-light methods of analysis than to focus your effort on working equations, etc.

Quote:
1. You have this weird view of Science that it is based on what is "reasonable". The word is a horrible word for science because you are basing "truth" on what makes sense to you.

Generating hypotheses, testing/checking them against facts, and then going back and reviewing/reconsidering your hypotheses/theories is scientific reasoning.

You are free to inductively formulate theories and deduce hypotheses from them, but you are supposed to subject them to comparison with fact, either by testing or review of pertinent facts. The process of seeking out pertinent facts and/or devising tests, empirical observations, etc. can be generally described as a process of reasoning.

Quote:
2. Scientific theories are proved correct if they can make accurate, specific testable predictions on how things will work that match with actual experiments. Two theories that lead to the exact same predictions are equivalent because it it the experimental confirmation that matters in science.

No, they are never proved correct. They are supported and thus accepted tentatively. Nothing is ever proven correct because we can't know if there is some falsifiability that we haven't yet encountered.

Quote:
3. Your fairy theory isn't very testable ... I suppose we could have Newtonian fairies that pulls things towards each other with a force inversely proportional to the inverse of the square of the distance between them. The fact that you use the word "fairy" doesn't make the theory either more or less scientific.

You said the explanation doesn't matter as long as the math works. By that logic, if the fairies push objects at 9.8m/s^2, they are an adequate explanation of gravity - by your standard as you described it.

Quote:
4. Curved space is a mathematical term used for functions in tensor space. You can not possible understand what it means until you have learned the mathematics. This should upset you because this is a mathematical term for a mathematical concept.

The concept is explained to lay people as simply as the curved path a ball takes as it arches horizontally from the person throwing it to the one catching it.

Celestial bodies moving in orbits, as well as comets, etc. move in curved paths due to no propulsion besides their inertia keeping them in a path of 'falling' due to their momentum.

The idea that an object's path could ever be straight would require that it be moving through some kind of 3D grid devoid of gravity, which doesn't exist in reality.

It might seem really REALLY straight because it's a small object moving a short distance within a gravity field is that much bigger, e.g. a ball falling a few feet; and as such the curvature of the path can be effectively estimated out of the analysis of the ball's motion, but that doesn't eliminate it from existence any more than any other estimate changes a value to the round number that is used to approximate it.

Quote:
5. For that matter, if you aren't going to learn the mathematics, why are you using mathematical terms anyway?

Math terms are useful terms to use when what they mean is best expressed by them. You don't have to be calculating anything to describe motion in terms of acceleration, momentum, inertia, etc. You just know that momentum gets transferred when things collide and that it is conserved and the things with more inertia resist momentum changes more than if they had less inertia, etc.

You can sit down and work the math if you want, but it isn't necessarily an efficient use of your time and effort for all questions/issues/analyses.

It's really important to be able to REASON when calculations are critical to answering a question and when they aren't. It's foolish to waste time on math or anything else when there's a more efficient path to your destination, so to speak.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 12:06 pm
@livinglava,
You are being silly. You say things that are ridiculous to anyone who has had more than a first year college course in physics. Instead of learning something, you double down.

That is the reason that people don't take you seriously.

Take this as an example. You pieced this together out of well-used science phrases... but you still get the science wrong.

Quote:
The concept is explained to lay people as simply as the curved path a ball takes as it arches horizontally from the person throwing it to the one catching it.

Celestial bodies moving in orbits, as well as comets, etc. move in curved paths due to no propulsion besides their inertia keeping them in a path of 'falling' due to their momentum.


When I read this, I think... what the hell is he saying?

1. The "curved path a ball takes as it arches horizontally" is generally calculated in Euclidean space (just so you know, Euclidean space is flat). Are you say saying that curved paths can't take place in flat spaces?

2. You seem to think there is a difference between "bodies moving in orbits" and "comets". (There isn't).

3. You seem to think that inertia is a form of "propulsion". (It isn't).

4. You seem to think that objects in orbits aren't "falling" (they are).

5. Since all of these things (orbits, thrown balls, etc) can happen in flat Euclidean space, you have said absolutely nothing about curved space.







maxdancona
 
  2  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 12:10 pm
@maxdancona,
If you really wanted to learn about these things, we could start to learn about how Newton's Laws work in Euclidean space. If you want to have any real understanding, you have to start by learning the basics.

After that, we learn about Vector spaces, and how to define Euclidean space in terms of tensors. And then (and only then) can we talk about non-Euclidean space.

First you should learn about how a ball actually moves in Euclidean space.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 12:13 pm
@BillRM,
Bill, did you run across Lagrangian Mechanics (or the Lagrangian in general?).

They sprung this on us, I think in them 3rd year undergraduate studies. I hated them.


livinglava
 
  1  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 01:18 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You are being silly. You say things that are ridiculous to anyone who has had more than a first year college course in physics. Instead of learning something, you double down.

That is the reason that people don't take you seriously.

Whenever you say things like this, they are totally ungrounded. You substitute the tone of authority for any actual grounding that backs up what you are claiming.

Quote:
Take this as an example. You pieced this together out of well-used science phrases... but you still get the science wrong.

Quote:
The concept is explained to lay people as simply as the curved path a ball takes as it arches horizontally from the person throwing it to the one catching it.

Celestial bodies moving in orbits, as well as comets, etc. move in curved paths due to no propulsion besides their inertia keeping them in a path of 'falling' due to their momentum.


When I read this, I think... what the hell is he saying?

1. The "curved path a ball takes as it arches horizontally" is generally calculated in Euclidean space (just so you know, Euclidean space is flat). Are you say saying that curved paths can't take place in flat spaces?

When you apply an imaginary grid and say, ". . . is generally calculated in Euclidean space," you're not saying anything about reality. It is like saying that the length of a shoe is generally calculated with a ruler or other straight edge and not a measuring tape or other flexible measuring tool.

What I was explaining is how Einstein's 'curved space' is an actually description of how objects move in reality, instead of defining motion in comparison with an imaginary 3D grid that only exists within the analytical framework.

Quote:
2. You seem to think there is a difference between "bodies moving in orbits" and "comets". (There isn't).

3. You seem to think that inertia is a form of "propulsion". (It isn't).

4. You seem to think that objects in orbits aren't "falling" (they are).

All you are doing is conjuring up debate instead of discussing meaningful aspects of the things you're talking about. You just want to accuse me of saying something and then arguing that it's wrong. You don't understand that I know what I'm talking about when you reduce things I say to a rhetorical level that doesn't apply.

Comets, for example, obviously move in the same way as planets or anything else. I just mentioned them separately because their paths seem more linear than circular because their distance from the sun changes more in the course of their orbit.

Inertia does 'propel' objects to the extent it keeps them moving. You are arguing over semantics of active vs. passive propulsion, but since I already understand what you mean (just as you should understand what I mean), it would be senseless to go off on a debate about what should be considered 'propulsion' and what shouldn't.

Quote:
5. Since all of these things (orbits, thrown balls, etc) can happen in flat Euclidean space, you have said absolutely nothing about curved space.

There is no 'flat Euclidean space' except as an analytical tool. 'Space' exists in reality simply as it does. Everything we do to model it and analyze it in various ways overlays/projects our analytical tools onto reality.

The fact is, however, that everything moves in relation to everything else, and nowhere is the universe empty in any way, so gravity and other forces are always present and thus paths are always less than straight in the abstract sense of a 3D grid of straight lines.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 01:22 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

If you really wanted to learn about these things, we could start to learn about how Newton's Laws work in Euclidean space. If you want to have any real understanding, you have to start by learning the basics.

After that, we learn about Vector spaces, and how to define Euclidean space in terms of tensors. And then (and only then) can we talk about non-Euclidean space.

First you should learn about how a ball actually moves in Euclidean space.

First, you posted your response to yourself though I happened to read it anyway.

Second, you don't get to define peoples' trajectories of thinking, learning, or anything else.

You think that there are set sequences for doing things that aren't invented by educators in order to structure how and when people think and do different activities.

Educators aren't gods, though; and they shouldn't have censorial authority over what people can think, believe, and say. There is freedom of speech and religion, etc. and you can make a case for whatever you believe, but you can also be wrong regardless of your position in academia or government.
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 02:25 pm
@justafool44,
Albert Einstein was a goofball with a 180 IQ and relativity is a bunch of bullshit, just like evolution.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 04:55 pm
@livinglava,
I don't get your point with this. I don't even see anything here to disagree about.

Our argument is about expertise. The are a group of people who are experts in Physics. They are experts not because of their title. They are experts because they have spent the time studying... they have done the long problem sets, they have done the reading, attended the lectures, taken the quizzes, done the experiments, written the papers and gotten feedback from peers.

You want to be an expert even though you haven't done the hard work it takes to gain this expertise.

It seems that you are arguing that expertise means nothing, knowledge means nothing and hard work means nothing. Everyone can just come up with their own ideas about what is right and be equally correct just for saying what makes sense to them.

I have never argued that your ideas should censored. You have free speech (as do I and everyone else). But that doesn't make you an expert.
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Sat 29 Feb, 2020 08:30 pm
Albert Einstein was a media creation and the man behind the curtain was none other than JP Morgan, one of the biggest assholes in US history.

Nicola Tesla's plan:

Quote:
“…to use the Earth itself as the medium for conducting the currents, thus dispensing with wires and all other artificial conductors,” by means of “a machine which, to explain its operation in plain language, resembled a pump in its action, drawing electricity from the Earth and driving it back into the same at an enormous rate, thus creating ripples or disturbances which, spreading through the Earth as through a wire, could be detected at great distances by carefully attuned receiving circuits. In this manner I was able to transmit to a distance, not only feeble effects for the purposes of signaling, but considerable amounts of energy, and later discoveries I made convinced me that I shall ultimately succeed in conveying power without wires, for industrial purposes, with high economy, and to any distance, however great.” (1901, Collier’s Weekly).


Obviously, if that plan had ever come to fruition, nobody would be talking about nuclear fusion power for electricity. In other words, the last century could and should have been the century during which the earth was transformed into something resembling a garden of Eden with essentially free energy for all of the people of the earth, rather than the century of communism, Nazism, world wars, terrorism, destruction, and horror.

The man who almost single-handedly destroyed the good plan and the dream was J.P. Morgan, who viewed that plan as ultimate disruptive technology, and plainly bad for business. The destruction involved the personal destruction of Nicola Tesla and also the creation of the shibboleth of Albert Einstein who, with his bullshit theory of relativity, was meant to replace Tesla in the popular imagination as the sunshine superman figure in the world of science.

Morgan had to have known that relativity was bullshit, but he plainly viewed it as OUR bullshit; it very quickly became impossible to say anything reasonable about Einstein or relativity while attempting to hold any sort of a scientific career together. Recently, there have been a number of claims that this dream of Nicola Tesla has in fact been realized, e.g.

https://futurism.com/stanford-scientists-are-making-wirele…/

I would strongly recommend the following two articles which describe what happened with Nicola Tesla and how Albert Einstein came to be widely regarded as "the smartest man who ever lived (TM)"

https://thelethaltext.me/2017/07/26/tesla-erasure/
https://thelethaltext.me/2017/08/06/einstein/

0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Sun 1 Mar, 2020 10:17 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I don't get your point with this. I don't even see anything here to disagree about.

Our argument is about expertise. The are a group of people who are experts in Physics. They are experts not because of their title. They are experts because they have spent the time studying... they have done the long problem sets, they have done the reading, attended the lectures, taken the quizzes, done the experiments, written the papers and gotten feedback from peers.

You want to be an expert even though you haven't done the hard work it takes to gain this expertise.

You say this as if you understand knowledge and learning, but all you understand is the narrow superficial way you have understood institutional/educational knowledge without having synthesized it to a more general level.

You are like an electrician who has learned all the details of codes and wire standards, etc., who then criticizes a physicist who only understands electricity as a general physical phenomenon but couldn't wire a building.

Quote:
It seems that you are arguing that expertise means nothing, knowledge means nothing and hard work means nothing. Everyone can just come up with their own ideas about what is right and be equally correct just for saying what makes sense to them.

No, you think in simplistic black and white terms like this because you don't have a deeper understanding of how knowledge evolves and develops. You just think it's a body of information that you received in classes.

Quote:
I have never argued that your ideas should censored. You have free speech (as do I and everyone else). But that doesn't make you an expert.

You are obsessed with status. 'Expert' is a status. A fact is true whether it is known by someone you deem and 'expert' or not. Your status issues are a distraction from real discussion.

It is tiring to listen to someone who always takes refuge in arguing about the status of posters instead of just discussing topics. It doesn't matter whether you are an expert in what you are discussing.

You can either cite a source and/or explain what you're saying, and the reader is supposed to critically assess the information they get. No one should assume anything they read or hear is automatically valid because of the status as a source/person as 'expert.' Even experts can be wrong or make mistakes.

E.g. every few weeks I will read an article that deals with how fast the universe is expanding, and none of the 'experts' involved ever seem to consider the possibility that it might not be expanding at all. Of course, it may be expanding, and if it is, the observed redshift is an indicator of that; but the reality is that expansion is an interpretation of observed patterns of redshift and so experts who deny the possibility that there could be some other explanation besides expansion are just protecting their territorial claim on cosmology.

So it's good to pay attention to experts, but also to realize they are human beings with self-interest and bias toward their careers, etc.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Sun 1 Mar, 2020 10:27 am
@livinglava,
My criticism of your posts is that you say things that are absolute nonsense. You make them sound like they come from a Physics textbook, but anyone who has actually read a Physics textbook knows that you are making basic errors-- like insisting that inertia is a form of "propulsion".

I don't want the casual reader to be fooled into thinking that you have any expertise on the subject.
livinglava
 
  0  
Sun 1 Mar, 2020 12:35 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

My criticism of your posts is that you say things that are absolute nonsense. You make them sound like they come from a Physics textbook, but anyone who has actually read a Physics textbook knows that you are making basic errors-- like insisting that inertia is a form of "propulsion".

Physics textbooks are written in English, which is why my posts might sound like physics textbooks written in English. If you have a problem with the way I'm using a word, such as propulsion, then you could post a threat to discuss what propulsion is/means, but this thread is about Einstein's special relativity, so you should just stick to that here.

If you read something I said about relativity you think is wrong or otherwise disagree with, explain your reasoning and engage in discussion. Don't switch gears to talking about how you think I am faking physics knowledge and therefore anything and everything I say cannot possibly be right in any way. That is wrong.

Quote:
I don't want the casual reader to be fooled into thinking that you have any expertise on the subject.

Look, people don't even trust Wikipedia, and it is generally pretty accurate and policed zealously by people who are really into citing sources.

This is a discussion forum. Different people have different takes on things and understand things in different ways and try to make sense to each other. Why don't you just put in your two-cents instead of fighting with other posters about what constitutes expertise?
 

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