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Einsteins special relativity nonsense

 
 
layman
 
  0  
Sat 21 Mar, 2020 01:09 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

Relativists like to say that A "sees" B's clock running slower. This is false. But it serves to convey the misleading impression that this is a matter of empirical fact, not assumption.

A does NOT "see" B's clock slowing down. He can deduce that the B's clock is not running at the same rate as his. Just as he can deduce that either the sun or the earth must be moving in my last example.

But the conclusion about which clock is slower and which is faster is merely a matter of deduction. It's not something you can directly "see."


To take this one step further, consider the case of the twin paradox. It is said that the astronaut "sees" the earth's clock as running slower. But that is not a visual perception, it's a deduction. And, as it turns out, it is a fallacious conclusion because it is based on unsound premises.

Why does he conclude that the earth's clock has slowed down? Because he starts with these premises:

1. He is motionless.
2. There is relative motion between him and the earth.
3. Therefore the earth must be moving
4. Per SR theory it is the moving clock which slows down
5. Therefore the earth's clock has slowed down.

If you changes the first premise to "I am moving," then he would arrive at precisely the opposite conclusion. That is, he would deduce that HIS clock has slowed down, not the earth's, and that the earth's clock was therefore ticking FASTER (not slower) than his own.

At no time does he "see" the earth's clock running slower. He merely deduces it.
layman
 
  0  
Sat 21 Mar, 2020 01:26 pm
@layman,
Quote:
If you changes the first premise to "I am moving," then he would arrive at precisely the opposite conclusion. That is, he would deduce that HIS clock has slowed down, not the earth's, and that the earth's clock was therefore ticking FASTER (not slower) than his own.


And in that case he would be correct, instead of wrong. SR itself says that HE, not his earth twin, is the one who will age more slowly. That is because HIS clock has slowed down, not the earth's.

And, needless to say, it is logically impossible to conclude that both clocks have slowed down, relative to the other, and that each twin is therefore younger than the other.
0 Replies
 
justafool44
 
  0  
Sat 21 Mar, 2020 07:27 pm
@layman,
whats the justification for using the LT?
Quote:
It is because clocks REALLY do slow down with increased speed, an empirical fact

Really? my clock on earth is ticking at one rate, but your clock is ticking slower because its moving.... moving faster.... faster than what? the Earth?
Is everything related to the earth?
What if your clock was sent to some star in another solar system in the Milky way? Then its moving way, way faster relative to the earth clock, so it will go really slow now? If its sent to a galaxy on the other side of this universe, you know that galaxy that is moving away from us faster than light speed? Or even approaching light speed... its really slow now? Because everything is related to my clock on the Earth?
What is the physical force that makes all clocks tick slower when moving at speed relative to the Earth? What is the force?
What if your clock was sent at almost light speed , its clock will lose a lot of time compared to my clock on earth, (because the earth is not moving anywhere right? ) but suddenly if the earth exploded , then presumably that clock that was moving really fast, would now not be ticking slow, because its no longer relative to the earth, which now does not exist.

For this idea to function, "moving clocks slow down", you need to explain what physical mechanism is in play between my earth clock and your "moving" clock, that makes it slow down.

You have failed to explain this ever.

And explain how it could still work when both the earth observer AND the moving observer whose time is slower, can both watch the passage of the Earth or Neptune around the Sun, or the moon around the earth, and both still see that in fact, "time" remains the same for both. Because your moving clock has not changed the rate that the earth orbits the sun, and that's one way to get a measure of the passing of time. Both observers will still see the same thing, so your moving clock can NOT REALLY SLOW DOWN AT ALL.

The ONLY rational conclusion is that those experiments that claim slowing clocks are fraudulent and done in order to support the deception that is modern physics.

Your hypothesis is irrational and not supported by the evidence of the motion of planets. Its supported only by probably fraudulent experiments of scientists with a different agenda than your own. This is more rational explanation.
You still cant explain the actual mechanics and forces involved in clocks slowing with relative motion. What the hell is my non motion got to do with your clock as you go for a ride somewhere?

Your whole argument boils down to " well its irrational, and unexplained how it could work, but scientists have measured 0.00000005% time differences and I believe it."
That why they can make a clock that only loses 1 nano second in a million years.... how have that confirmed that exactly? Do they have a more accurate clock somewhere to compare it to?
How do they know that the first clock they made was actually the best one, and all newer ones are less accurate?

How do they know that the clock they sent to the fast trip, did not in fact maintain perfect time, and it was all the clocks back on earth that all speed up, because some idiot took a clock for a ride?
Its as rational as your claim. (which is "not at all")


0 Replies
 
justafool44
 
  0  
Sat 21 Mar, 2020 07:33 pm
@layman,
Quote:
He will not "see" his clock as having slowed down. Nor will he "see" the other clock as run faster than his. That can't be "seen."

He will simply deduce those things from what he pre-supposes. They are conclusions, based on premises, which are not inherent in anything he sees.


So the same rule MUST be applied to the other "stationary" observer.
The guy back on Earth, the guy claiming that "moving clocks slow down" ALSO CANT SEE ANY CHANGE IN ANYTHING.
He must "pre suppose" it all, in his IMAGINATION.
"They are NOT INHERENT IS ANYTHING OBSERVABLE!"

THEY DO NOT EXIST outside ones imagination, in a fantasy world.
0 Replies
 
justafool44
 
  0  
Sat 21 Mar, 2020 07:36 pm
@layman,
Quote:
But the conclusion about which clock is slower and which is faster is merely a matter of deduction. It's not something you can directly "see."


This is the direct opposite of what you previously claim.
You previously and strongly claim that scientists really do measure real changes in clocks that are moving, and clocks that are in different locations in spacetime.

Please pick a side, and stay with it!
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Sat 21 Mar, 2020 07:49 pm
Ptolemy and Galileo were sitting on a park bench one day, having a nice little chat, eating some pizza, and ****.

At one point Ptolemy said he believed that the sun revolved around a stationary earth.

Galileo said he disagreed and instead believed that the earth revolved around a stationary sun while rotating on its axis.

As the day progressed, they both watched the sun "move across the sky." They therefore fully agreed with each other that "something" was moving here. They could both definitely "see" motion.

They both saw all the same things at the same time.

Unfortunately, what they "saw," standing alone, could not possibly help resolve the dispute
justafool44
 
  0  
Sat 21 Mar, 2020 09:04 pm
@layman,
wonderful story, but it does not in any way provide your explanation of the issues I raised.
It just showed that both observers were ignorant of the information that would be required to make any reasonable decision.
layman
 
  0  
Sat 21 Mar, 2020 09:13 pm
@justafool44,
Quote:
Both observers will still see the same thing, so your moving clock can NOT REALLY SLOW DOWN AT ALL.

The ONLY rational conclusion is that those experiments that claim slowing clocks are fraudulent and done in order to support the deception that is modern physics.


I have no comment to make on your diatribe. Other than to note that you just proved my point about the nature of your rigidly ideological anti-scientific belief system.
justafool44
 
  0  
Sat 21 Mar, 2020 10:41 pm
@layman,
yet still you have no explanation, and as your theory of what should happen is self contradictory, the only remaining rational conclusion is mine. and I have evidence to support my case they some science is fraud.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Sun 22 Mar, 2020 01:12 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

Relativists like to say that A "sees" B's clock running slower. This is false. But it serves to convey the misleading impression that this is a matter of empricial fact, not assumption.

A does NOT "see" B's clock slowing down. He can deduce that the B's clock is not running at the same rate as his. Just as he can deduce that either the sun or the earth must be moving in my last example.

But the conclusion about which clock is slower and which is faster is merely a matter of deduction. It's not something you can directly "see."


Hmmm, neither Brandon nor Max, the two self-styled math wizards and SR experts, ever returned after being asked a simple question about a math formula, and how it applies in SR.

What's up with that, I wonder?
livinglava
 
  0  
Sun 22 Mar, 2020 01:24 pm
@layman,

layman wrote:

Relativists like to say that A "sees" B's clock running slower. This is false. But it serves to convey the misleading impression that this is a matter of empricial fact, not assumption.

A does NOT "see" B's clock slowing down. He can deduce that the B's clock is not running at the same rate as his. Just as he can deduce that either the sun or the earth must be moving in my last example.

But the conclusion about which clock is slower and which is faster is merely a matter of deduction. It's not something you can directly "see."


Hmmm, neither Brandon nor Max, the two self-styled math wizards and SR experts, ever returned after being asked a simple question about a math formula, and how it applies in SR.

What's up with that, I wonder?

It's because you've confounded objective and subjective aspects of light frequency and time so people realize that you'll just take whatever they say and respond that they are confusing objective and subjective aspects of light frequency and time, as per the 'solipsism' that you are in critical rivalry with.

layman
 
  0  
Sun 22 Mar, 2020 01:40 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

It's because you've confounded objective and subjective aspects of light frequency and time so people realize that you'll just take whatever they say and respond that they are confusing objective and subjective aspects of light frequency and time, as per the 'solipsism' that you are in critical rivalry with.


Oh, that's what *I've* done, eh? Strange that I give full explanations for everything I say, which you completely ignore. I haven't seen a single "explanation" from you. You just make unsupported assertions.

Carry on.
livinglava
 
  0  
Sun 22 Mar, 2020 01:51 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

livinglava wrote:

It's because you've confounded objective and subjective aspects of light frequency and time so people realize that you'll just take whatever they say and respond that they are confusing objective and subjective aspects of light frequency and time, as per the 'solipsism' that you are in critical rivalry with.


Oh, that's what *I've* done, eh? Strange that I give full explanations for everything I say, which you completely ignore. I haven't seen a single "explanation" from you. You just make unsupported assertions.

Carry on.

I was just explaining why I think others aren't responding to your posts anymore.

There's no point when you're just going to accuse people of confusing objective and subjective by claiming that light frequency and time are subjective.

Even if you were right, there'd be nothing to discuss about it. It's just the insistence that subjective perception is causing observed phenomena. You could say that about anything and, even if you're wrong, what is there to convince you otherwise?

Solipsism is beyond proof one way or the other. It is just you making everyone and everything else into a mirror to argue with yourself that you're the real reflection and not the fake one.
layman
 
  0  
Sun 22 Mar, 2020 01:55 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
There's no point when you're just going to accuse people of confusing objective and subjective by claiming that light frequency and time are subjective.


I never said any such thing. In fact I've said the opposite. Not that you would know. You don't pay the slightest attention to what anyone else says.

Did you happen to get a new Acme Strawman Kit for your birthday?
livinglava
 
  0  
Sun 22 Mar, 2020 02:00 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
There's no point when you're just going to accuse people of confusing objective and subjective by claiming that light frequency and time are subjective.


I never said any such thing. In fact I've said the opposite. Not that you would know. You don't pay the slightest attention to what anyone else says.

Did you happen to get a new Acme Strawman Kit for your birthday?

As I said, you make the reflection into the opposite so you can argue that the opposite is not the real reflection.

And then you accuse others of solipsism to compete with them.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Sun 22 Mar, 2020 02:02 pm
@layman,
"Objective;" A characteristic of the "object," i.e. what's "out there" (in the external world).

"Subjective:" A characteristic of the "subject," i.e, what's "in there" (in the subject's mind).

Physics: The study of external phenomena, like matter in motion.

Psychology: The study of mental impressions, etc.

I'm trying to talk physics here. Many seem to think that physics is psychology.

First thing you know, they're trying to claim that whatever is subjectively "true" must also, ipso facto, be objectively true.

Fraid not.
livinglava
 
  0  
Sun 22 Mar, 2020 02:10 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

"Objective;" A characteristic of the "object," i.e. what's "out there" (in the external world).

"Subjective:" A characteristic of the "subject," i.e, what's "in there" (in the subject's mind).

Physics: The study of external phenomena, like matter in motion.

Psychology: The study of mental impressions, etc.

I'm trying to talk physics here. Many seem to think that physics is psychology.

First thing you know, they're trying to claim that whatever is subjectively "true" must also, ipso facto, be objectively true.

Fraid not.


Right, but you're trying to discuss relativity by claiming that it is false because time-dilation and light frequency shifts are subjective.

That may be your POV, but it leaves nothing further to discuss.
layman
 
  0  
Sun 22 Mar, 2020 02:30 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Right, but you're trying to discuss relativity by claiming that it is false because time-dilation and light frequency shifts are subjective.


Wrong, yet again. I'm saying no such thing. What I am saying (by quoting highly respected physicists--which I'm sure you haven't read either), is that the doppler shift has absolutely nothing to do with "time dilation" in SR, as you vaguely and speciously try to claim.

Light frequency is objective. Your mistaken impression of what it is is subjective. But again, the doppler shift has nothing to do with time dilation in SR go begin with, so it's just a red herring.

Your mistaken premise is, as I've pointed out, that if I "see" red, then, By God, the frequency of the light I am seeing IS red. Nothing can shake you from that solipsism.
layman
 
  0  
Sun 22 Mar, 2020 03:33 pm
Something you'll NEVER understand:

1. https://able2know.org/topic/545476-30#post-6975521

Or this:

2. https://able2know.org/topic/545476-28#post-6974802

Or this:

3. https://able2know.org/topic/545476-28#post-6974837

Me looking at an object, from whatever perspective, does not, and can not, in any way affect what it is, objectively.

I know, Lava, you don't get it.

0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Sun 22 Mar, 2020 04:14 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
Your mistaken premise is, as I've pointed out, that if I "see" red, then, By God, the frequency of the light I am seeing IS red.


And if a color blind person sees the same object as grey, then, by God, it IS grey.

Who's "right" as a matter of objective reality?

Well, they're BOTH right, of course.
 

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