5
   

Einsteins special relativity nonsense

 
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 10:17 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Lava, I think you would agree that a skilled watch-maker could, if he chose, calibrate a clock in such a manner that, after only 30 minutes had passed, the clock would register the passage of an hour.

This is in fact what the GPS does to "synchronize" clocks. Even though clocks on moving and elevated objects run at different rates than a clock at the ECI, they can be calibrated to "register" the same amount of time elapsed as has the "master clock" at the ECI, notwithstanding the fact that the rate at which they tick differs.

So the time elapsed at the ECI is the "standard" time. For purposes of theories of motion, such as SR and competing theories, this would be called the "absolute time." The standard never changes, even if and when assorted clocks may be running at different rates.

Calibrating a clock differently just changes the ratio of 'ticks' of the clock to seconds. The rate of clock-ticks is constant, as long as the clock is functioning properly.

What relativity says is that two equivalent clocks that are functioning properly, i.e. clocks that would remain synchronized if they were sitting next to each other on a table, will elapse at different rates when they are accelerating at different rates or when they are in different gravitational situations.

We can't say whether one actually slows down or the other speeds up, because we can only see that they sped up/slowed down in comparison with each other from our vantage point as observer.

The only reason I accept this is because I believe that light can redshift or blueshift, which entails that it arrive at a different rate/frequency than it was sent out. So if 450THz red shifts to 550THz green, then that means the same number of wave peaks have reach the receiver in one second as it took the sender to send out at the lower frequency. So if the red sender takes 550/450 seconds to send out the energy that get received by the green sender in just one second, the red sender's clock would be elapsing at 450/550 the rate of the same clock by the green receiver.

It's just conservation of energy, really, because you can't have the frequency of light shifting and thus changing the amount of energy transmitted without the rate of time having to change as well. If the rate of time didn't change, energy would not be conserved.
layman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 10:58 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
What relativity says is that two equivalent clocks that are functioning properly, i.e. clocks that would remain synchronized if they were sitting next to each other on a table, will elapse at different rates when they are accelerating at different rates or when they are in different gravitational situations.

We can't say whether one actually slows down or the other speeds up, because we can only see that they sped up/slowed down in comparison with each other from our vantage point as observer.


I agree with what SR (and other theories of motion) say about clock rates changing with speed.

But, sure, we can say which one actually speeds up. Just put one in motion and then later bring it back to the table. Per theory, the clock which then shows the least elapsed time during the interim would be the one which was moving (through space, not internally) faster.

layman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 11:03 am
@livinglava,
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Quote:
The only reason I accept this is because I believe that light can redshift or blueshift, which entails that it arrive at a different rate/frequency than it was sent out. So if 450THz red shifts to 550THz green, then that means the same number of wave peaks have reach the receiver in one second as it took the sender to send out at the lower frequency. So if the red sender takes 550/450 seconds to send out the energy that get received by the green sender in just one second, the red sender's clock would be elapsing at 450/550 the rate of the same clock by the green receiver.


I disagree. Doppler shifts play no part in the calculation of so-called "time dilation" in SR. It does not affect clocks at all, just perceptions. How a particular observer "perceives" frequency does not alter the actual frequency of the light being perceived.

Again, I think one problem you're having (no doubt resulting from an over-exposure to the fallacious arguments of relativists) is that you have a tendency to accept the proposition that perception somehow affects external reality.
layman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 11:31 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Again, I think one problem you're having (no doubt resulting from an over-exposure to the fallacious arguments of relativists) is that you have a tendency to accept the proposition that perception somehow affects external reality.


Did you disagree with, or not understand, the point I was trying to make a while back when I was talking about telephones poles and perception?
livinglava
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 11:45 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

I agree with what SR (and other theories of motion) say about clock rates changing with speed.

But, sure, we can say which one actually speeds up. Just put one in motion and then later bring it back to the table. Per theory, the clock which then shows the least elapsed time during the interim would be the one which was moving (through space, not internally) faster.

I don't think that can happen, because the clock would go slower while moving away, but it would move faster while returning; so the lost time would be made up in the return trip.
layman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 11:46 am
@layman,
I should let you answer my last question first, Lava, but I'll ask another one anyway.

Suppose you're at a football game and some spaceship flies over the field near light speed. Suppose its observers "sees" (calculate would be the right word) the distance between the goal lines to be only 50 yards, not 1o0.

Do you think that, at that moment, the distance between the two lines suddenly shrinks to 50 yards, and then expands back to 100 yards after it passes?

How much affect did the spaceship observers' perceptions actually have on the field?
livinglava
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 11:48 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

I disagree. Doppler shifts play no part in the calculation of so-called "time dilation" in SR. It does not affect clocks at all, just perceptions. How a particular observer "perceives" frequency does not alter the actual frequency of the light being perceived.

What does subjective perception have to do with frequency. Frequency is a rate, i.e. how frequently a wave peak is received. If the wave peaks arrive more frequently than they were sent out, they blueshifted.

Quote:
Again, I think one problem you're having (no doubt resulting from an over-exposure to the fallacious arguments of relativists) is that you have a tendency to accept the proposition that perception somehow affects external reality.

Not at all. I don't know why you are assuming that I think that.
layman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 11:48 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:


I don't think that can happen, because the clock would go slower while moving away, but it would move faster while returning; so the lost time would be made up in the return trip.


Why would you think this? In SR time dilation is strictly due to a difference in speed, completely independent of direction.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 11:54 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

I should let you answer my last question first, Lava, but I'll ask another one anyway.

Suppose you're at a football game and some spaceship flies over the field near light speed. Suppose its observers "sees" (calculate would be the right word) the distance between the goal lines to be only 50 yards, not 1o0.

Do you think that, at that moment, the distance between the two lines suddenly shrinks to 50 yards, and then expands back to 100 yards after it passes?

How much affect id the spaceship observers' perceptions actually have on the field?

The point is that there's no way for the observers in the spaceship to measure anything different than what they actually measure from their observational position.

They could come back and land and ask people who were at the game whether the distance between the lines changed or not, and then assume that their measurements were correct while their instruments were influenced by speed, but that is just giving preference to the local measurement over the remote/moving measurement.

The issue of relativity isn't whose measurement position is right vs. whose is altered, but rather the fact that measurements change depending on motion and gravitation.
layman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 11:55 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:


What does subjective perception have to do with frequency.


Nothing, that's my point.

Quote:
Frequency is a rate, i.e. how frequently a wave peak is received. If the wave peaks arrive more frequently than they were sent out, they blueshifted


The exact same wave (sound, or whatever) will be perceived differently if an observer is:

a) not moving at all relative to the source
b) moving away from the source, or
c) moving toward the source.

In each case it's the exact same wave. Neither it nor it's frequency changes, just the observer's perception of it.
layman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 11:58 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

The issue of relativity isn't whose measurement position is right vs. whose is altered, but rather the fact that measurements change depending on motion and gravitation.


OK, but the issue "in SR" is entirely distinct from the issue of what is correct. That's precisely where it goes wrong.

I take it that you would agree that anything can be mismeasured (for any variety of reasons) and that what must prevail is the correct measurement, not the erroneous one.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 12:01 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

The exact same wave (sound, or whatever) will be perceived differently if an observer is:

a) not moving at all relative to the source
b) moving away from the source, or
c) moving toward the source.

In each case it's the exact same wave. Neither it nor it's frequency changes, just the observer's perception of it.

Yes, it's the same wave; but if you have a material that absorbs a certain frequency and reflects others, it will absorb or reflect the shifted frequency without regard to the shift. Your eyes are basically just absorbing different frequencies of light and interpreting them according to the frequency they are received.

If you look through a telescope at a different galaxy that is redshifted, you see it in its shifted frequency. It's only by comparing spectral lines that astronomers are able to assess that the light's frequency has shifted. They can't directly see/measure it as being sent out at a different frequency than they are receiving it.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 12:07 pm
@livinglava,
This reply to my post is not addressing the the underlying point.

The question is this: Do you think that perceptions can alter objective reality?
livinglava
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 12:20 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

This reply to my post is not addressing the the underlying point.

The question is this: Do you think that perceptions can alter objective reality?

Why wan't my post clear?

You are implying that the frequency of light changes according to subjective perception.

Two people might disagree on whether a certain frequency of green looks more yellow or more blue, but the frequency is what it is, and subjective perception doesn't alter it.

Light whose frequency is shifted due to motion and/or gravitation between sender and receiver is, however, really shifted. I.e. when you receive red light that was sent out as blue light, the wave peaks somehow arrive at your measurement apparatus at the frequency they do despite having been sent out at a higher frequency.

The only way to explain that frequency difference is by allowing the rate of time to be different for two equivalent 'clocks' to the same observer.

In the case of a distant galaxy that is redshifted, the 'clock' in question is the spectrum of hydrogen or helium, I think, which doesn't have that many spectral lines compared with other elements, so they both have very clear markers to identify them as hydrogen or helium.

As such, astronomers can look at the observed spectrum of light and identify it as hydrogen/helium, but with its frequency shifted slower, i.e. toward red.

So if you know that hydrogen light is arriving at a slower frequency, then you can interpret that as time moving faster at the observed galaxy than we are observing it here. This is because we assume that the hydrogen spectrum is the same in that distant galaxy as it is locally, so the light must have shifted toward red, and thus the rate of time has shifted to elapse slower.

It has nothing to do with perception. It is all about how frequently the wave peaks of light arrive in comparison with how frequently they were sent out.
layman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 12:27 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

layman wrote:

This reply to my post is not addressing the the underlying point.

The question is this: Do you think that perceptions can alter objective reality?


Quote:
Why wan't my post clear?


I didn't say it wasn't clear. I said it didn't address the question

Quote:
You are implying that the frequency of light changes according to subjective perception.


The response of yours that I replied to involved a football field and distant, rapidly moving, observers of it, not light frequency.

Do you think that any tangible physical change has taken place in the object (football field) being observed?

And, btw, I am implying no such thing. I am in fact asserting the exact opposite.
layman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 12:51 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
but that is just giving preference to the local measurement over the remote/moving measurement.


Yes, as it should. The correct measurement is the one that should always be given preference over an incorrect one.

The "local measurement" says that no physical changes have taken place in the object being observed and it is therefore the one which provides the correct answer to that question.

Same deal with the twin paradox scenario. It is the earth's frame of reference, not the traveller's, that gives the correct answer.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 12:51 pm
@layman,
Neither Max nor I give a **** about philosophy or solipsism. This is physics, and people who will fail every time they are given an elementary physics problem are in no position to say that the accepted view is "nonsense."
livinglava
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 12:54 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

Do you think that any tangible physical change has taken place in the object (football field) being observed?

What is meant by 'tangible physical change?'

When you observe the sun by receiving its light and then you move away from it and observe it at a lower frequency, did the sun change? No, but did the light you are receiving from it change? Yes, you are receiving light at the frequency you receive it. Whatever frequency of light you are receiving, that is the frequency of that light for you.

Does that mean the light 'changed,' between the sun and you? No, it's the same light but you are moving away from the source.

Think of it in terms of the ambulance siren: If you measure the frequency of the siren while the ambulance is moving toward you, it is higher than after it passes you. For you, the frequency actually changed. On the ambulance, the frequency stayed the same.

Does that mean the frequency measured on the ambulance is the actual frequency and yours is altered by your perception? No, because you perceived the correct frequency you were receiving. It just so happens that the doppler effect caused you to receive a different frequency that the one heard on the ambulance or the one you would hear after the ambulance passed you.
livinglava
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 12:58 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
but that is just giving preference to the local measurement over the remote/moving measurement.


Yes, as it should. The correct measurement is the one that should always be given preference over an incorrect one.

Any accurate measurement is correct. Your problem is that you want to say the observed frequency is wrong because it doesn't match the one that was sent out. That is incorrect. If the frequency is measured correctly, then that is the frequency at the point where it is measured.

It just so happens that there is relativity built into reality due to the doppler effect.

Quote:
The "local measurement" says that no physical changes have taken place in the object being observed and it is therefore the one which provides the correct answer to that question.

You are assuming that the local reality would have to change for a distant observer's reality to change. The whole point of relativity is that time isn't fixed everywhere but rather it varies according to the physical relationship (i.e. motion/gravitation) between observer and observed.
livinglava
 
  1  
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 01:02 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

Neither Max nor I give a **** about philosophy or solipsism. This is physics, and people who will fail every time they are given an elementary physics problem are in no position to say that the accepted view is "nonsense."

You can't test someone on one subject and then declare that they are incapable of understanding anything about another.

It may work pretty well in school to assess someone's capacity to succeed in a higher level class by testing them on prerequisites, but you are overextending that logic to deny even giving any consideration to what someone has to say on a topic.

In short, you're being assumptive/presumptive instead of just reviewing information directly.
 

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