12
   

The meaning of getting to Mars? Your view?

 
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2020 06:09 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
I would be delighted to find dead life there.

See, I told you that was the only reason we want to go.

Can the methane that's outgassing be anything besides 'dead life?'

Is there some way methane can be generated by abiotic processes?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2020 07:31 pm
@Leadfoot,
The search for extraterrestrial life is ongoing always. Going to Mars has that as an added incentive, but the push to travel to Mars would go on without it. Just as men were on the moon they will likely stand on every standable heavenly body that can be reached.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2020 07:34 pm
Curiosity seemed to detect methane on one occasion. It has not detected any methane since then, and mission control at JPL has come to the conclusion that it was a mechanical artifact, and not actually the detection of methane.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 03:59 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Curiosity seemed to detect methane on one occasion. It has not detected any methane since then, and mission control at JPL has come to the conclusion that it was a mechanical artifact, and not actually the detection of methane.

Or maybe the data rights were bought and thus privatized, and the 'mechanical artifact' excuse was deployed to re-seal the issue at the public level.

Or maybe the imaginary methane was never anything but a marketing ploy to draw interest (and thus potential additional funding) for Mars research.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 06:05 am
@livinglava,
there are about 4 major pathways for abiotic methane and all depend on better knowledge of the geology. Processes like serpentinization, or Fisher Tropsch reactions, but thats of no value because as ed says, life detection int what its primarily about.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 06:10 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

there are about 4 major pathways for abiotic methane and all depend on better knowledge of the geology. Processes like serpentinization, or Fisher Tropsch reactions, but thats of no value because as ed says, life detection int what its primarily about.

You need to be able to summarize things instead of saying, "all depend on better knowledge of the geology."

The public is getting news/information about Mars and when they/we have questions, it doesn't help us to hear that we have to go back to school and spend years and $1000s gaining 'better knowledge.'

If you want to be an ambassador of public science, do so by providing clear summary explanations of processes. Insisting that things are too difficult to explain/understand doesn't help better connect the public with science.

In short, if you can explain a way that methane can form without living processes, just explain how. Note the energy source, what reactions are involved and the conditions that cause/allow those reactions to occur. I.e. just break it down for readers.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 08:27 am
@livinglava,
Im not going to try to reach and teach you about hydrous silicate dissociation in low P/T environments becuse you wont understand. Its not that you couldnt , but you need to start at some level to begin your journey and wherever Ive met up with you, youve adopted a "oh yeh"?? kind of attitude.
I can make subjects very enjoyable but first you hve to go the half mile to begin.


Can you understand serpentinization? (look it up , thats one wy Ive found you to begin but Ive also found that your motives are not necessarily to learn but to try and come up with some area where you think you can trip me up and I find that rather a boring waste of time.

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 01:25 pm
@livinglava,
What a loon. You're a Republican,, right? It's all always about money and politics with you. Grow up. Go back to school, and pay attention this time.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 04:23 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Im not going to try to reach and teach you about hydrous silicate dissociation in low P/T environments becuse you wont understand. Its not that you couldnt , but you need to start at some level to begin your journey and wherever Ive met up with you, youve adopted a "oh yeh"?? kind of attitude.
I can make subjects very enjoyable but first you hve to go the half mile to begin.


Can you understand serpentinization? (look it up , thats one wy Ive found you to begin but Ive also found that your motives are not necessarily to learn but to try and come up with some area where you think you can trip me up and I find that rather a boring waste of time.

No, you're obsessed with fighting. It makes you a bad teacher, beyond the fact that you don't actually just explain things you know when referencing them as responses to other posts.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 04:25 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

What a loon. You're a Republican,, right? It's all always about money and politics with you. Grow up. Go back to school, and pay attention this time.

If it weren't about money and politics for you, you wouldn't post this instead of having respectful discussion with people without regard for their color, i.e. red or blue.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 04:57 pm
Based on the SpaceX vision

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 05:11 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
you don't actually just explain things you know when referencing them as responses to other posts.

When you asked whether there were any ways besides biotic to form methane I should have just said "YES THERE ARE" and quit. When I give examples of more technical items, Ive more than answered your questions. If you wish to know about such things as serpentinization I have no obligation to give you a course in "how rocks are formed". You can always read on your own and then (and we have some really smart folks here) ask a question for some in depth knowledge.

You sound like some school kids who post homework questions on the board like
"How is DNA formed , please tell me, and give me at least three examples of a genes structure".

No-one here does any one elses homework and if youre really interested Ill see it when I can tell that youve done som rading on your own andyou ask a smart question rather than just come back with your snotty responses demanding that I come up with stupid information that corresponds with your worldview. I dont abide stupid.
When you were all wet about plate tectonics I was as nice as I could be until I realized you were just fuckin with me . Then you became a non-person to me. Youre still one and youre kinda showin your ignorance to the rest of the folks here.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 05:18 pm
@farmerman,
I have no idea why Im even doing this but heres a place to start its a beginning U level petrology club at U of Washington.

" Methane and Hydrogen Formation From Rocks – Energy Sources for Life

One of the distinct geological characteristics of Lost City is that it lies upon basement rocks that originated in the Earth’s mantle and were brought to the surface through faulting. These rocks are called peridotites and consist of minerals that are rich in magnesium and iron. The most common is the mineral olivine, which consists of magnesium, ferrous iron and silica. Below temperatures of about 425°C (about 800° F), olivine is unstable in the presence of seawater and reacts to form the hydrous Mg-rich silicate mineral serpentine and an iron-oxide called magnetite. We refer to this process of hydrating mantle rocks as “serpentinization”. Serpentinization causes important changes to the physical state of the rocks and the chemical composition of the system, and produces important nutrients for microbial activity.

During the formation of magnetite, part of the ferrous (Fe2+) iron in olivine is oxidized to ferric iron (Fe3+) to form magnetite. This change in the valency of iron consumes oxygen from the fluid and leads to a state that chemists call reducing conditions. As a consequence of the formation of magnetite, hydrogen gas (H2) is produced from the reduction of seawater during serpentinization. Seawater also contains carbonate ions (HCO3- or CO22-) and sulfate ions (SO42-) which can become reduced to form methane (CH4) and hydrogen sulfide (H2S) during the serpentinization process. The presence of the reduced species H2, CH4 and H2S in the fluids that seep out of the rocks provide important energy sources for different microbial species that seem to thrive around the Lost City structures.

In recent years, many scientists that have studied the mid-ocean ridge system have detected the presence of elevated concentrations of methane (and in some cases hydrogen) in the water column using a CTD package similar to the one that we will be using. These chemical anomalies have been found in a number of areas, particularly along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. In many cases, the high methane concentrations can directly be linked to the presence of mantle rocks exposed on the seafloor that are undergoing serpentinization reactions. One of the goals of our expedition to Lost City will be to combine studies of the mineralogy and chemistry of the rocks with studies of the vent fluids, water column samples, and microbiology to better understand the links between the inorganic processes in the subsurface with biological activity around the vent structures.
"
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 07:25 pm
@livinglava,
No, you're the one who brings politics and money into these discussions, and you insist upon, whether or not it's relevant. Hell, you even accused me of taking a political position in the atheism thread. I'm done with you and your idiocy.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 11:59 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
you don't actually just explain things you know when referencing them as responses to other posts.

When you asked whether there were any ways besides biotic to form methane I should have just said "YES THERE ARE" and quit. When I give examples of more technical items, Ive more than answered your questions. If you wish to know about such things as serpentinization I have no obligation to give you a course in "how rocks are formed". You can always read on your own and then (and we have some really smart folks here) ask a question for some in depth knowledge.

You have no obligation personally, but imho you have a responsibility as a public intellectual to communicate with the public in a way that supports their understanding/learning.

If you want to cite websites or just terms as you see fit, that is your prerogative based on your independent judgment, but you should exercise such judgment in good faith of wanting/intending the public/readers to have as efficient a path to gaining understanding as is possible.

That means, if it's convenient for you to explain something briefly and save them/us trouble, go to a little trouble. If it's less trouble for us to read a cited source, then cite the source. Whatever you do, just do it as part of a good-faith effort to provide people with the most efficient path for them as non-experts to understand the topic at hand. Don't use it as an attempt to berate people for being lazy, uneducated, arrogant, etc.

Quote:
You sound like some school kids who post homework questions on the board like
"How is DNA formed , please tell me, and give me at least three examples of a genes structure".

I would then ask what the person wants to know about DNA, e.g. how it is copied, what it's made out of, how it is stored, etc. and then either briefly explain it or cite/suggest a source that can explain it more efficiently than I can.

Quote:
No-one here does any one elses homework and if youre really interested Ill see it when I can tell that youve done som rading on your own andyou ask a smart question rather than just come back with your snotty responses demanding that I come up with stupid information that corresponds with your worldview. I dont abide stupid.
When you were all wet about plate tectonics I was as nice as I could be until I realized you were just fuckin with me . Then you became a non-person to me. Youre still one and youre kinda showin your ignorance to the rest of the folks here.

I was never 'f-ing' with you. You just don't have the ability to respect someone whose thoughts dare to go outside the established paradigm of primordial heat and radioactive decay being exclusively responsible for interior heat. Every time I would post a specific hypothesis for how fossil fuels get scraped off the surface and carried down with subducting crustal material, you would just blow me off and insult me without giving any consideration to the possibility that fossilized solar energy is raining downward through the mantle over immense geological time.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Feb, 2020 12:19 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

I have no idea why Im even doing this but heres a place to start its a beginning U level petrology club at U of Washington.

Ok, I'm going to respond to this to show you how lay people read it:

Quote:
" Methane and Hydrogen Formation From Rocks – Energy Sources for Life

Energy sources for what kind of life? Where do the methane and hydrogen come from? I.e. what energy source makes them to begin with?

Quote:
One of the distinct geological characteristics of Lost City is that it lies upon basement rocks that originated in the Earth’s mantle and were brought to the surface through faulting.

What is 'Lost City?' What is 'faulting' and how does it bring 'basement rocks' to the surface? Does 'faulting' refer to earthquakes' 'fault lines?' I.e. are we talking about transform plate boundaries shifting? That is the term taught in K-12 regarding earthquakes and their fault lines.

Quote:
These rocks are called peridotites and consist of minerals that are rich in magnesium and iron. The most common is the mineral olivine, which consists of magnesium, ferrous iron and silica. Below temperatures of about 425°C (about 800° F), olivine is unstable in the presence of seawater and reacts to form the hydrous Mg-rich silicate mineral serpentine and an iron-oxide called magnetite. We refer to this process of hydrating mantle rocks as “serpentinization”. Serpentinization causes important changes to the physical state of the rocks and the chemical composition of the system, and produces important nutrients for microbial activity.

I've read this. It doesn't explicate anything about the chemical pathways energy takes.

Quote:
During the formation of magnetite, part of the ferrous (Fe2+) iron in olivine is oxidized to ferric iron (Fe3+) to form magnetite. This change in the valency of iron consumes oxygen from the fluid and leads to a state that chemists call reducing conditions. As a consequence of the formation of magnetite, hydrogen gas (H2) is produced from the reduction of seawater during serpentinization. Seawater also contains carbonate ions (HCO3- or CO22-) and sulfate ions (SO42-) which can become reduced to form methane (CH4) and hydrogen sulfide (H2S) during the serpentinization process. The presence of the reduced species H2, CH4 and H2S in the fluids that seep out of the rocks provide important energy sources for different microbial species that seem to thrive around the Lost City structures.

Here it sounds like the energy-containing H2 and methane break away from the cooling material, which is rich in energy because it was hot before it cooled, but I am assuming this is implied and I could be misinterpreting/analyzing.

If you apply this to explain Mars methane, you would have to assume that Mars had a hotter core/mantle that cooled and magma broke down into methane et al. and the methane is gradually venting out because of some seasonal cycle of freezing/thawing.

That's fine to hypothesize this kind of process, but why favor it over some other process that bears more resemblance to organic processes? Life is just a complex and extensive set of micro-chemical events that do what macro-geological mechanics do but on a nano-scale.

I have a hard time believing that life is either exceptional in the universe or that it doesn't exist on a continuum with abiotic processes, rather than as a radically different category, as is usually assumed.

Quote:
In recent years, many scientists that have studied the mid-ocean ridge system have detected the presence of elevated concentrations of methane (and in some cases hydrogen) in the water column using a CTD package similar to the one that we will be using. These chemical anomalies have been found in a number of areas, particularly along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. In many cases, the high methane concentrations can directly be linked to the presence of mantle rocks exposed on the seafloor that are undergoing serpentinization reactions. One of the goals of our expedition to Lost City will be to combine studies of the mineralogy and chemistry of the rocks with studies of the vent fluids, water column samples, and microbiology to better understand the links between the inorganic processes in the subsurface with biological activity around the vent structures. [/i]"

Ok, now I get you are talking about deep sea volcanic-vent based ecosystems. I often wonder if there's not a more continuous spectrum of energy-activities between what we consider life and what we consider abiotic magma. Life is thought to have begun with thermophiles as found in hot springs, etc. so there must be a spectrum of forms that leads back to abiotic magma processes. I.e. there shouldn't ultimately be any clear dividing line between magma and primordial life formation.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Feb, 2020 12:21 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

No, you're the one who brings politics and money into these discussions, and you insist upon, whether or not it's relevant. Hell, you even accused me of taking a political position in the atheism thread. I'm done with you and your idiocy.

If you cited and/or responded to a specific post, I could defend my reasons for saying what I did; but without a specific example, I cannot respond to your criticism.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Feb, 2020 05:03 am
@livinglava,
Quote:

Energy sources for what kind of life?
Life is life Einstein.. You asked a question I gave you sveral answers yet you fail to go and even read the clip I sent.(Theres a lot more there).
Do you sit around like Jabba the Hut and have people spoon feed you with everything that requires investment of your own time.
I can only assume your not really interested in anything.

If Some guy woulda told me that there are several abiotic mechanisms by which methane can be generated , I would have immediately run to the library (this was back in the pre internet days). For me to do that, I would have had to hike to a nearby town and catch a bus to one of two cities where the nearest bigger libraries reside. NOW we have the internet, and youre so fuckin lazy that you dont feel like you want to look up anything about what I told you. You just want to spit out some snarky **** about how mean I am to you.

I know you will ue my terms (but as improperly as you youve been using the information about Plate tectonics).

Rarely correct but never in doubt--You fit that description quite well



farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Feb, 2020 05:10 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
I've read this. It doesn't explicate anything about the chemical pathways energy takes
Thats because that was NOT your question. You asked whether there were any non biogenic sources of methane (CH4), I answered that an then added a clip to help clarify what serpentinization entailed, and yet you are still as clueless as Goober.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Feb, 2020 06:59 am
How to Optimize Your Headspace on a Mission to Mars
Quote:
Humans love to explore. It’s in our blood. But setting foot on the Red Planet in 20 or 30 years is a more daunting task than anything else ever attempted. To make sure our quest to explore Mars and more distant worlds continues, we have to keep examining not just the engineering challenges but the challenges of our own minds.
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
DOES NOTHING EXIST??? - Question by mark noble
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
morals and ethics, how are they different? - Question by existential potential
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
 
Copyright © 2020 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 02/22/2020 at 11:17:58