The meaning of getting to Mars? Your view?

@hightor,

Exploring that 'headspace' is the reason I’d go. It would be epic, if we didn’t all end up hating each other like in the Biosphere II experiment.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

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Energy sources for what kind of life?
Life is life Einstein..

The title wasn't clear. Giraffes are life and so are deep sea vent organisms and so are plants, algae, coral, etc.

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You asked a question I gave you sveral answers yet you fail to go and even read the clip I sent.(Theres a lot more there).
Do you sit around like Jabba the Hut and have people spoon feed you with everything that requires investment of your own time.
I can only assume your not really interested in anything.

All you do is repost information and then insult me for discussing it further. I guess you are really afraid of having things questioned. It begs the question what you are afraid will be revealed about either the information, you, or both.

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If Some guy woulda told me that there are several abiotic mechanisms by which methane can be generated , I would have immediately run to the library (this was back in the pre internet days).

Why wouldn't you just ask what he meant? Aren't you afraid people will just say some BS and send you on a wild goose chase to make themselves look smart in conversation? Haven't you noticed how much people play information like a game of poker, getting aggressive when you start to call their bluff?

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For me to do that, I would have had to hike to a nearby town and catch a bus to one of two cities where the nearest bigger libraries reside. NOW we have the internet, and youre so fuckin lazy that you dont feel like you want to look up anything about what I told you. You just want to spit out some snarky **** about how mean I am to you.

I'm not lazy. I'm aware that people play poker-bluffing games on the internet to send people away on research goose chases and make themselves look like they won an argument by getting the last word as the other person goes searching for further information elsewhere.

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I know you will ue my terms (but as improperly as you youve been using the information about Plate tectonics).

Rarely correct but never in doubt--You fit that description quite well

Your loud aggressive mouth is obviously distracting from some shortcoming/weakness on your end. If you were a truly confident expert/intellectual, you wouldn't exhibit so much hostility just because someone asks further questions or puts for thoughts that you might disagree with or that might disagree with information you've read and accepted at face value as fact.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

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I've read this. It doesn't explicate anything about the chemical pathways energy takes
Thats because that was NOT your question. You asked whether there were any non biogenic sources of methane (CH4), I answered that an then added a clip to help clarify what serpentinization entailed, and yet you are still as clueless as Goober.

Life is a type of chemical pathway energy takes. I can't even begin to contemplate whether something is living or non-living until I've been able to fully consider how it gets its energy and what it does with it.

The same processes that generate serpentine might be connected with processes that have or could evolve into life. To think about how or how not, more information is needed.

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@Leadfoot,

That is one reason why I am opposed to the "pissing contest" aspect of sending a small mission, just to have bragging rights about who got there first. At the very least, there should be many dozens of people, and preferably a few hundred. That would require boosting habitats and equipment up there before you send the big monkeys in.

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@livinglava,

theres plenty of information about the "chemical equations" of serpentinization. Serpentine is a low silica/high silicate minerals contained in several forms of deep mantle magmas. Its some of the hottest stuff on earth so if life is associated with its formation that would really be an extremophile.
I believe you are just playin with yourself so you dont look like a dimmy to me. (Ive reached my conclusions about you several weeks back)

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All you do is repost information and then insult me for discussing it further

You didnt discuss "anything further", you start with the idiocy and expect me to grace you with an honest discussion???
Youre either nuts or really stupid, which is it?

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

theres plenty of information about the "chemical equations" of serpentinization. Serpentine is a low silica/high silicate minerals contained in several forms of deep mantle magmas. Its some of the hottest stuff on earth so if life is associated with its formation that would really be an extremophile.

The question is how such extremophiles first formed and how the 'abiotic' processes that suddenly became 'biotic' differed from their biotic progeny.

If life emerged/evolved from non-living energy pathways, then it is questionable whether those supposedly 'non-living' pathways weren't themselves just a more primordial form of life.

Cellularity is a classification condition we apply to deciding what counts and life and what doesn't, but if cellularity emerged within a non-cellular 'soup' of reactions that exhibited the same or similar characteristics as that of the cellular forms that emerged from it, then why would you say the cellularized form was living and the pre-cellular form 'non-living?'

I know it seems like a dumb classificatory issue, but the point is that there's no clear delineation between pre-biotic and biotic energy processing, so whatever processes result in the formation of serpetine and methane, etc. as byproducts, how can you deem them incontrovertibly non-living if primordial extremophiles were just a cellularization or other small modification of the otherwise abiotic process?

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All you do is repost information and then insult me for discussing it further

You didnt discuss "anything further", you start with the idiocy and expect me to grace you with an honest discussion???
Youre either nuts or really stupid, which is it?

See, you're doing it again. You escape discussion that would actually require you to process what someone else says by just re-posting information about a topic and then insulting/attacking whoever questions you about it.

Anyone could do that. All you do is a google search for some information on the topic in question, re-post exerpts from sources that you find, and then tell anyone who questions you about the sources that they're an idiot and lazy for not doing their own research. If pressed to give answers, you just re-post some more on the same topic.

It looks like on-topic response to someone who doesn't look critically/closely enough to see what you post just correlates topically with what you are responding to. Not too many people bother to really engage with text they are in dialogue with, so people just tend to accept that saying something related to the last thing says counts as discussion, when in reality it is actually just taking turns saying things about the same topic and engaging in ego attack/defense exchanges.

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@livinglava,

All he's doing is escaping bone-headed argument by someone too ignorant to know what she does not in fact know.

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@livinglava,

You know, LL just trashes every thread she goes into with stupid bullsh*t, because she's ignorant and too arrogant to admit it. It's a shame she followed people to this thread, which has been really interesting. Then she shows up . . .

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@Setanta,

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so whatever processes result in the formation of serpetine and methane, etc. as byproducts, how can you deem them incontrovertibly non-living if primordial extremophiles were just a cellularization or other small modification of the otherwise abiotic process?

This funny. What was the name of that comedian who used to use science malaprops as his entire act. It was Not "Professor" Erwin Correy, another one.

LL's above statement doesnt even make sense a a question. So Im stumped.

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@Setanta,

A name Ive seen as one who has been tasked by NASA to inquire about Martian development sites is a guy from JPL, Dr Mason Peck. Ive read a few by him re: adequate sites for "regolith (surficial soils) protection" against radiation an sources of ample water. Apparently the water issue is not a big concern for JPL they feel its there in suffisient amounts and all we have to do is try to keep it from exposure to the atmosphere and sublimating . I saw that they will set up several of the gradient drive plants to dissociate water and collect H2 and O2 as fuel and breathables.

You were right(I was wr wr wrong ) about N2. I was following up on seeing whether theres enough of a mass of N2 available in surface minerals and its seems kinda iffy for off gassing(It would waste more resources than it would provide and theyve been "prioritizing" resources as what is most critical and on down.). So the mineralized N is available for production of plant material.

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@farmerman,

Yep, bioengineering is the only way possible to terraform Mars. Same way it was done here.

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@farmerman,

I continue to see Titan as the best source for nitrogen for Mars. As I said, the start-up costs will be high, but Titan has a much denser atmosphere than the Earth, and it's 98%+ nitrogen. Get a shuttle service going, and let it deliver nitrogen to Mars for a couple of centuries.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

All he's doing is escaping bone-headed argument by someone too ignorant to know what she does not in fact know.

You don't know that.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I continue to see Titan as the best source for nitrogen for Mars. As I said, the start-up costs will be high, but Titan has a much denser atmosphere than the Earth, and it's 98%+ nitrogen. Get a shuttle service going, and let it deliver nitrogen to Mars for a couple of centuries.

How much pressure do you think can build up on Mars with its gravity before the gas just escapes the planet?

You need gravity for atmospheric pressure. There's no glass bubble around Mars to contain the atmosphere like in Spaceballs.

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@Setanta,

I was always thinking about smaller refuge developments within craters or underground. carrier gases like xenon or helium I thought . could work as well as N2. but apparently the formation of O3 from Nitrogen during high energy electricity bolts is like a "factory" on arth.

Shipping iceburgs of N2 from Jupiters neighborhood is a possibility (but at an energy exppense that I have no idea how they would calculate )

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

I was always thinking about smaller refuge developments within craters or underground. carrier gases like xenon or helium I thought . could work as well as N2. but apparently the formation of O3 from Nitrogen during high energy electricity bolts is like a "factory" on arth.

Shipping iceburgs of N2 from Jupiters neighborhood is a possibility (but at an energy exppense that I have no idea how they would calculate )

How are you going to keep imported nitrogen from leaking out of whatever enclosures you build?

And what is the purpose of building such enclosures on a planet with 1/3 Earth gravity? How could humans survive long term in such a low gravity environment? Are they going to spend all their time in a centrifuge to simulate Earth gravity? If so, why not just build the centrifuge in orbit around the sun?

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@farmerman,

My remarks are based on a belief that we need a dense atmosphere there if we are to colonize the planet. If it get thcik enough, the soutern polar cap will begin to melt in the southern summers, and it is almost entirely CO2 ice. The northern polar cap is mostly water ice, and if it melts, it'll fill the low spaces north of about 30 degrees north. So many things to take into consideration.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

My remarks are based on a belief that we need a dense atmosphere there if we are to colonize the planet. If it get thcik enough, the soutern polar cap will begin to melt in the southern summers, and it is almost entirely CO2 ice. The northern polar cap is mostly water ice, and if it melts, it'll fill the low spaces north of about 30 degrees north. So many things to take into consideration.

Why aren't you taking the low gravity into consideration?

1 Reply

@Setanta,

The human placenta can create stem cells that can be inserted into receptors WITHOUT being concerned about auto rejection.
We can preadapt our Martian Teams and insert some degree of growing genetic variability for future generations. Maybe my kids wont be on board but their kids can be pre adapted to some of the environments where target home planets will be found. Remembering that about a hundred generations would pass while travelling just to Alpha centauri (at our present rules of physics) Or 2 generations if we can ever travel at 0.4 (c)

Im done on Mars, my initial proposals were that we, as a species, must sooner or later face the reality of an EXTRA CRISPY future for all 4 inner planets followed by a 100 million year brown out for the entire solar system (Unless, as someone speculated that we larn how to turn JUPITER into a mini sun.

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@farmerman,

Alpha Centauri may not be a good choice. In addition to AC A and B, there is Proxima Centauri, which was discovered in 1915. In 1951, it was confirmed that it is a "flare star"--it's luminosity increases by about 8%. That would not be a good neighbor, unless you live underground. Barnard's star seems to be a stable red dwarf, and that's a possibility. It's about six light years away.

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The meaning of getting to Mars? Your view?

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