17
   

The meaning of getting to Mars? Your view?

 
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2020 06:16 am
There is now a fairly detailed map of Mars, as well as a good deal of data on the atmosphere, thanks to the Mars Global Explorer, which operated for almost ten years. Launched in 1996, it orbited the planet over the poles until it stopped responding in 2006.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2020 06:18 am
This link will take you to NASA's Mars site.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2020 06:21 am
Active Mars Missions are covered at this site from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2020 06:24 am
Here is the page for NASA and the JPL's Mars 2020 mission. It will be launched this coming July.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  4  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2020 07:36 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
Someone can make billions of dollars and have an interest in investing it in creating 'multi-planetary civilization,' but then the question is what the investment goes to paying for.

Damn, I hate having to state the obvious. It pays for making this civilization 'Multi-planetary'.

Worth it? S'up to you.

I would remind you (and Setanta) that the subject of the thread is the Meaning of going to Mars, not HOW to get there.
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2020 07:41 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
So the more pandemics, the better, from a climate change perspective. There are too many of us humans on this planet anyway. Maybe that's why so many folks want to relocate to Mars. ;-)

Now you’re start'n to get it! It’s not the quantity of company, it’s the quality!
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2020 03:49 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I think the most meaningful problem would be getting back to Earth.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2020 04:24 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
If they land on the surface of Mars, they are probably volunteers on a one-way trip to a permanent colony.

If they merely orbit Mars they can probably come back however.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2020 08:00 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Someone can make billions of dollars and have an interest in investing it in creating 'multi-planetary civilization,' but then the question is what the investment goes to paying for.

Damn, I hate having to state the obvious. It pays for making this civilization 'Multi-planetary'.

Worth it? S'up to you.

I would remind you (and Setanta) that the subject of the thread is the Meaning of going to Mars, not HOW to get there.

Everything reachable from Earth requires a certain amount of energy to reach its destination. Earth has a certain amount of energy to power everything that runs from its energy, including all its natural systems.

It's easy to pretend that Earth's energy budget is unlimited, but it isn't. Everything we do has consequences for the overall long-term functioning of the planet, including space exploration/colonization.

Colonizing Earth was done using wind/sail power, along with human and animal power. Then industrial power was invented and we started tapping deeper into our energy budget. How deep are we going to tap to establish colonies in outer space, Mars, etc.?

Why do sustainability concerns fall to the wayside when people start getting 'multi-planetary civilization' stars in their eyes? Do they think there's some other energy budget for sending all this equipment and people to Mars?

Or is it assumed that all the materials and energy will be harvested somewhere far away from Earth and Earth will only have to provide remote control and a few 'seed' technologies to start up the process of robots flying around outer space harvesting all the energy and materials to build extraterrestrial factories and colonies?
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2020 06:04 am
@livinglava,
Ya know, for a ‘Spiritually minded guy', you seem terribly stuck in the material world.

I will agree with you to the extent that 'Mars' (or any other planet or moon) is not going to be a viable alternative for us before harnessing fusion or similar power source first. I don’t know enough about small scale fission reactor technology to know if that's a possibility. But Chemical rocket technology is a bit too crude to do the job that Elon wants to do. So far, our maned space program is a high tech version of Mike Hughs' antics. (RIP Mike) It’s really a stunt. But stunts can be fun too.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 07:44 pm
Here is a suggested site for setting up a protected home on Mars. A ready made hole.
https://www.sciencealert.com/what-is-the-deal-with-this-weird-hole-on-mars
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 08:15 pm
@edgarblythe,
That would be a good site for another reason: Pavonis Mons sits astride the equator, the southern rim of it's caldera lies on the equator. From the point of view of insolation, it would ideal
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 08:25 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Ya know, for a ‘Spiritually minded guy', you seem terribly stuck in the material world.

I have no idea what spirituality means to you or why you would bring it up except as an attempt at a personal jab.

Quote:
I will agree with you to the extent that 'Mars' (or any other planet or moon) is not going to be a viable alternative for us before harnessing fusion or similar power source first. I don’t know enough about small scale fission reactor technology to know if that's a possibility. But Chemical rocket technology is a bit too crude to do the job that Elon wants to do. So far, our maned space program is a high tech version of Mike Hughs' antics. (RIP Mike) It’s really a stunt. But stunts can be fun too.

The bottom line is that people on Earth need to come to terms with how Earth has traditionally worked as a self-sustaining energy system and work on fitting into that. People just don't understand that trees and plants and even animals and other consumers all absorb latent waste-heat from the environment and utilize it productively because their cells are water-based nano-machines whose operations go faster as temperature rises and water molecules speed up.

Every form of industrial power we use has to derive its energy from either fossil/nuclear fuels that contain stored-up energy OR it has to tap into present-moment solar energy, such as solar panels and wind turbines.

Neither solar panels nor wind turbines absorb latent waste-heat from the environment to repair themselves and propagate/reproduce, the way biological life forms do.

We can use some industrial power, but we have to reverse the trend of allowing industrialism and its products (including buildings and infrastructure) to displace biological life forms that need to colonize all the space they can on Earth to keep Earth working as it has evolved to throughout Earth's life as a planet.

We can work on building/discovering other places for humans to live in outer space and beyond, but those have to be self-sustaining and not dependent on Earth for resources and energy.

Eventually, humans who travel between Earth and other human-habitations outside of Earth should be like people traveling between totally-independent energy/resource economies. Rockets might be used to transport human bodies into orbit, but once they arrive, everything else that sustains them there should be harvested and constructed/maintained from extraterrestrial materials/resources, assuming we can find places to colonize/mine that are totally disposable in terms of their indigenous evolutionary/developmental histories, which is unlikely.

Basically, humans need to develop permanent sustainability as a species and then apply the same paradigm of permanent sustainability and resource conservation to anywhere else they/we go in the universe.

That is difficult because we haven't developed this fundamental cultural sensibility yet, the way native Americans seemed to have, for example. We have always thought in terms of finding some new source of resources that we can justify exploiting without caring about maintaining it in a sustainable way and in a way that honors its existence prior to our having discovered it as a resource.

It's not easy to find a pile of resources and resist the temptation to just dig in and enjoy the bounty. What we have to learn to do is to stop and reflect upon finding resources as to how those resources got there, how they are currently being used, and how we can interact with the existing system in a way that is mutually beneficial and respectful of other life-forms (assuming those other life forms share our values of respect and mutual benefit, of course, which not all will).
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 09:40 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
Leadfoot wrote:
“Ya know, for a ‘Spiritually minded guy', you seem terribly stuck in the material world.”

LL replied:
I have no idea what spirituality means to you or why you would bring it up except as an attempt at a personal jab.


I do those periodically, but they are strictly collateral damage, not intentional.

But come on man, we're theoretically talking about 'The Meaning”; why we are interested in going to Mars. The real meaning is deeply spiritual whether you realize it or not.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 09:49 am
Horse poop . . . the meaning is to seek the survival of the species. That is something all life forms do constantly. Nothing magical, no religionist hocus-pocus, just the relentless march of natural selection.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 10:11 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Leadfoot wrote:
“Ya know, for a ‘Spiritually minded guy', you seem terribly stuck in the material world.”

LL replied:
I have no idea what spirituality means to you or why you would bring it up except as an attempt at a personal jab.


I do those periodically, but they are strictly collateral damage, not intentional.

But come on man, we're theoretically talking about 'The Meaning”; why we are interested in going to Mars. The real meaning is deeply spiritual whether you realize it or not.

Oh, I see now what you're getting at, I think.

Mars, like the moon, is solid ground. Just as Europeans and people of other continents set off in boats throughout human history to set foot on islands and/or other continents, we see places like the moon, Mars, and other planets/moons as solid ground, separated from Earth and each other by 'outer space,' which is actually just an ocean of very thin ionized gas and dust that is magnetized and energized in various ways, which makes it seem foreign to us who are used to living within this bubble of gas where there is solid ground to stand on and liquid water to drink and use, as well as an energy balance that keeps us relatively comfortable, where we can expose at least some skin to the elements without being damaged.

The fact that all these planets and moons appear spherical and exhibit the same fundamental phases of matter that we're used to seeing on Earth means we can identify them with Earth in terms of similarity on some level. So that identification of similarity can be extended to come up with all sorts of ideas about what else will be similar, and in reality everything is similar to everything else that's analogous to it, while also being different in all the ways that analogous things aren't exactly the same.

Human reasoning usually comes down to sorting out difference and similarity, and arguments are fiercely debated over whether the differences between similar things outweigh the similarities between them and/or vice-versa.

Now, what disappoints me about all this Mars-mania and other hype about space exploration is that I think business/economic interests have come to see it (and influence it) as a way of generating business activity. It used to be that space science was more about thinking outside the box and imagining new frontiers without it necessarily coming to fruition, but now it's become enough of an industrial-impetus that there are lots of people who are thinking of it in terms of creating jobs and contracts and sales, etc.

So when you have people who just want to promote Mars science because they see it as an opportunity to create jobs or boost GDP growth or some other tangential economic/political interest, it perverts the true spirit of it.

Does that answer your question about spirituality in Mars-ism?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 10:46 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
Does that answer your question about spirituality in Mars-ism?

Yes, between that and what Setanta said, gets to the point.

As you said, Mars represents a 'New World' where we place our hopes for something more than the **** show we live in now. It’s all for nothing of course. If and when it becomes possible and commonplace, people will come to regard it as we do commercial air travel now - an air conditioned cattle car ride with a disappointing destination at the other end and a good chance of catching a cold virus.

But the human spirit will always strive to survive and hope for Valhalla at the end of the trip. Out of Africa, into Europe and the East, then Into the Wild West of America. Rinse and repeat. It just keeps everyone hoping for what they think might be possible, even if they can’t put their finger on what it is. But there is no doubt that it’s 'something better than this'. It’s spiritual.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 11:11 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

As you said, Mars represents a 'New World' where we place our hopes for something more than the **** show we live in now. It’s all for nothing of course. If and when it becomes possible and commonplace, people will come to regard it as we do commercial air travel now - an air conditioned cattle car ride with a disappointing destination at the other end and a good chance of catching a cold virus.

I don't think Mars will become a destination, except in the way the Grand Canyon or other natural wonders are. It should and hopefully will be kept pristine and allowed to continue evolving in whatever way it is, devoid of human alteration.

What I do think will happen is that space stations/vehicles will be put in long eliptical orbits that allow people to circulate between near-Earth orbit and near-Mars orbit, and people may go down to the Martian surface sometimes the way people go out in Antarctica or go deep-sea diving in extreme environmental suits.

Quote:
But the human spirit will always strive to survive and hope for Valhalla at the end of the trip. Out of Africa, into Europe and the East, then Into the Wild West of America. Rinse and repeat. It just keeps everyone hoping for what they think might be possible, even if they can’t put their finger on what it is. But there is no doubt that it’s 'something better than this'. It’s spiritual.

Think of it this way, if you will: what's spiritual is the search for God, like in Star Trek: the motion picture where V-ger seeks its creator. Humans also seek God, but our search leads us into all sorts of frontiers within the creation/universe.

Ultimately, whatever destination and/or goals we actually reach turn out to be less than ultimate, because every destination brings with it new horizons/frontiers. Nevertheless, the fact that we are perpetually moved to seek beyond our current situation can be summed up as God-seeking/Truth-seeking, i.e. because we intuitively know there is more for us and as such we pursue it.

It would be great, however, if humans would all realize that the seeking is part of a deeper spiritual practice that is inherent in our nature, and begin honoring the entire creation/universe as a natural collection of destinations and resource-reservoires that are simultaneously meant for us (along with the rest of the universe) to benefit from, but also to steward well by minimizing our impact and maximize the freedom of nature to manage herself.

Leaving nature be in this way is really the true meaning of the Sabbath in Biblical philosophy, which isn't really so much about a day of the week, imo, as it is about resisting work in order to let the ground fallow and heal from our exploitation of it. So, yes we have to exploit resources to survive/live, but we should also put effort into minimizing our impact and allowing nature to manage herself, i.e. because that is how God created nature to work prior to our arrival.



Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 08:41 am
@livinglava,
Oh come on, you know that Evolution explains everything .

Our brains developed this curiosity as a survival tool. All this wasted thought on ‘spirituality' could be better spent on useful survival efforts. Eventually people will no longer think such un useful thoughts. People like you will die off and not reproduce as successfully. Natural selection will eliminate such non-optimum thought patterns. Peacocks will lose those stupid tail feathers, we will all turn black as we acclimate to the climate, or become cave dwellers. I hardly recognized my own pasty white face in the mirror this morning. We look like a mixed race couple when my hiker gf comes over. She looks hot though. I swear, at seventy she has mammaries that any twenty year old would envy.
Sorry, I got distracted, but again, it’s all about Evolution, there is no other scientific answer - Boobs rule.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 09:47 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Oh come on, you know that Evolution explains everything .

Our brains developed this curiosity as a survival tool. All this wasted thought on ‘spirituality' could be better spent on useful survival efforts. Eventually people will no longer think such un useful thoughts. People like you will die off and not reproduce as successfully. Natural selection will eliminate such non-optimum thought patterns. Peacocks will lose those stupid tail feathers, we will all turn black as we acclimate to the climate, or become cave dwellers. I hardly recognized my own pasty white face in the mirror this morning. We look like a mixed race couple when my hiker gf comes over. She looks hot though. I swear, at seventy she has mammaries that any twenty year old would envy.
Sorry, I got distracted, but again, it’s all about Evolution, there is no other scientific answer - Boobs rule.

I don't know how much of your post to take as serious and respond to and how much I should just dismiss as internet graffiti.

Needless to say, spirituality is neither useless nor is it in conflict with evolution, nor is evolution in conflict with creationism/religion, and both peacock feathers and religion/spirituality have evolutionary benefits, so if humans would eliminate religion/spirituality from culture, it would be as bad for the species (worse actually) than if peacocks stopped generating their plumage.

The way you think is like people who think plants would be further evolved if they were all black and soaked up maximum energy from the sun. Maximizing energy input/output is not what successfully-adapted species do; it's what desperate dying species do in a last-ditch effort to attempt to overcome weaknesses.

Strong species make do with less energy and resources, and that is how they survive and contribute to a sustainable biosphere/planet. Species that waste die off and/or are killed off by competitors.

Now you will say that religion/spirituality and peacock plumage are both examples of waste, but the reality is that diversity of functions/culture is part of how energy/resources are budgeted to prevent waste. Where diversity is reduced, waste builds up and causes problems, like when you prune a plant too much and the excess water ends up causing root rot and/or other infections. Energy needs to spread far and thin for ecosystemic health.
 

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