0
   

No Nattering Nabobs!

 
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:51 am
Oh - I'm not young Deb - I remember Nixon and Agnew and the other crooks that stained American democracy.

If I've somehow injected a note of reality or *gasp* opposition into what was intended to be a propaganda thread then - tough. No apologies. If you want to delude yourself that all is well, if you are happy to suck in the propaganda then fine. Up to you.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 08:13 am
It's hard to believe that a single thread discussing some of the positive aspects of the war in Iraq would garner such need to be squished under the oppressive heel of the nattering nabobs.

Are you so opposed to the idea that there may actually be something good happening?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 11:56 am
Negativism at Home Could Produce Defeat Of U.S. Policy in Iraq

Unless they can't help themselves, it strikes me as political madness for Democrats to declare that the Iraq war is an "intractable quagmire" or a "grotesque mistake."

If the war turns out to be a disaster - and let's pray it doesn't - then voters will repudiate Republican foreign policy in 2006 and 2008, and Democrats will be the beneficiaries.

So why should some Democrats now be acting as though they want to see their country lose a war? Why should they say things that may undermine the morale of U.S. forces and our Iraqi allies and contribute to a U.S. defeat?

And why should they reinforce the image of their party as being so hopelessly force-averse that it can't be trusted to lead on foreign policy?

It's one thing for a Democrat like Sen. Joseph Biden (Del.) to harshly criticize the way the Bush administration is conducting the war and then recommend constructive steps for winning it.

Arguably, Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) is doing something similar in calling for U.S. threats designed to keep the Iraqi government's constitution-writing process on schedule, although he's not exactly demonstrating support for allies who are risking assassination every day.

But what Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) have done with their "quagmire" and "grotesque mistake" talk is to declare that the war is, in effect, a lost cause.

The closest Kennedy comes to a positive suggestion is to call for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign. Then what?

Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) are demanding that President Bush come up with a new strategy, but they are offering none of their own.

Democrats of all stripes go out of their way to declare that they support U.S. troops, but Kennedy and Pelosi are implying that those men and women are fighting and dying in vain.

The logic of the Kennedy-Pelosi position should lead them to call for immediate withdrawal, but they aren't doing that either.

To be sure, they aren't alone in defeatism. Democrats are gleefully quoting Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel (Neb.), who says that "the reality is that we're losing in Iraq." Hagel, though, is virtually the only public Republican naysayer, while it's hard to find a Democrat who supports the war.

There are three explanations, not mutually exclusive, for what Democrats are doing in stepping up attacks on Bush's Iraq policy now.

One is that they are taking advantage of polls showing that the public has turned sharply negative on the war.Another is that they want to claim vindication amid rising casualty rates.And a third is that they just want to keep saying what they think - that the war is a loser.

The polls have indeed gone south on Bush. The latest Gallup poll shows that support for the war has dropped to just 39 percent, down from 72 percent in April 2003 and 47 percent this March. Fifty-nine percent oppose the war.

At last week's hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham (S.C.) said with some alarm that support is flagging even in South Carolina - "the most patriotic state I can imagine."

He added, "I don't think it's a blip on the radar screen. I think we have a chronic problem on our hands" that could lead to a premature U.S. withdrawal and an insurgent victory.

Rumsfeld gave Graham a good answer: This is "the time that leadership has to stand up and tell the truth. If you're facing a head wind, you've got two choices. You can turn around and go downwind or you can stand there and go into the wind, and that's what needs to be done."

Clearly, that's what the Bush administration is doing. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the Bush policy is to keep U.S. troops in Iraq "as long as they are necessary," although Democrats have been calling for an "exit strategy."

The danger is that defeatism at home will create a defeatist dynamic in Iraq. As Gen. John Abizaid, commander of U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf, told the committee that among "our troops and the troops we're training in the Iraqi and Afghan security forces, I never sensed the level of their confidence higher."

"And when I look back here at what I see is happening in Washington, within the Beltway, I've never seen the lack of confidence greater."

He added that, "when my soldiers ... ask me the question whether or not they've got the support from the American people, that worries me. And they're starting to do that.

"And when the people that we're training, Iraqis and Afghans, start asking me whether we have the staying power to stick with them, that worries me, too."

Herein lies the danger that Iraq could be Vietnam all over again.

A thick book came out this spring, "Vietnam Chronicles: the Abrams Tapes," recounting the dismay of U.S. commander Gen. Creighton Abrams as his and South Vietnamese forces won battle after battle against Communist troops from 1968 to 1972, but lost the war on the home front.

After the 1968 Tet offensive - an allied military victory, but a psychological defeat -the media and the Democratic Congress decided that the war was "unwinnable" and it gradually became so.

Abrams complained that it was impossible to get beyond "the umpires" - the media bureau chiefs in Saigon and the Congress - who wouldn't listen to reports of military progress.

"Whenever this command goes out to explain how it did something well, they're calling you out before the throw is made to the plate. That's the game we're in."

Obviously, it's up to President Bush to run the war well and to rebuild domestic support for his policies. He has some progress to show: increasing numbers of Iraqis trained, a constitutional process under way, the decision of some Sunnis to take part in politics, aggressive new action against the enemy.

Bush's policies may fail on their own because they were misconceived or badly executed. What shouldn't happen is for U.S. policy to fail because Americans lose their will. Bush's critics, the Democrats, should tell him how to win, not declare that the cause is lost.

source
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 12:30 pm
It's not about being unwilling to see the positive side of things; it's about running the cost/benefit analysis and being disgusted with the result.

Carry on.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 12:33 pm
Better a nattering nabob than a nincompoop...
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 09:54 pm
Now for the GOOD news!

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/large/HolyGrail017.jpg

Its only a flesh wound.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2005 07:27 am
Three soldiers in Iraq, thanks to CBS News, got a chance to express their frustrations with media coverage and with those who have turned against the war. Wednesday's CBS Evening News showed clips from the soldiers talking with CBS reporter Kimberly Dozier, including Captain Christopher Vick of the 18th Airborne Corps, who complained that "there's no focus on the good things that go on" and expressed concern that if the insurgents "can turn public perception away from the good that is happening in this country, then they will eventually win the battle."

Anchor Bob Schieffer introduced the June 29 look: "Like soldiers in any war, Americans now serving in Iraq have plenty of time to think, and one thing they think about is what people back home think about them. Today, some of them talked with our Kimberly Dozier."

Viewers then saw and heard from Captain Christopher Vick, 18th Airborne Corps, standing outside in Iraq: "I think it's hard for Americans to get up every day and turn on the news and see the horrible things that are going on here because there's no focus on the good things that go on. What they see is another car bomb went off."
Dozier: "Do you think that's exactly what the militants are trying to do?"
Vick: "Sure. You've got to win the information war. I mean, it's, if they can turn public perception away from the good that is happening in this country, then they will eventually win the battle."
Dozier: "Do the soldiers still see the American people as pro-military, if not pro-war?"
Colonel Ben Hodges, Multinational Forces in Iraq: "Public opinion is probably a mix of frustration a little bit like, doggone, we still have soldiers getting killed and, you know, we've been at it now for about two years."
Specialist Kenneth Berlin, 82nd Airborne Division: "People don't understand why we do the things we do. A lot has to do with, you know, duty to country and the American flag and, you know, just love for freedom."
Dozier: "Does that make you angry?"
Berlin: "It makes me sad. I really wish that, you know, people would respect the troops, I mean, even if you don't respect the war itself or, you know, the reasons why we're out here."
Schieffer: "Voices from the front."

source
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2005 07:33 am
Isn't Fort Bragg, North Carolina, where Bush acknowledged that many in the U.S. are questioning his course, the home of the 18th Airborne Corps?
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2005 07:51 am
Quote:
Sure, there have been heroics, and I have linked to the media accounts. However, that does not change the fact that soldiers getting blown up is more newsworthy to most people than someone winning a Silver Star. That doesn;t mean that we don;t know both has happened.

In my local newspaper, it isn't front page news when the Mayor goes to a ribbon-cutting ceremony, or when the mayor approves the budget, orw hen town council votes on new street signs. It sure as hell is front page news if the mayor gets caught bribing people, or is caught doing something wrong.

Ifyou want good news from Iraq, there are lots of places to go- try the Army Times, try the Defense department's website. Chock full of good news.

The rest of us, however, like the fact that the media covers it when 16 of our boys and girls are shot down in a helicopter and that is treated more importantly than someone doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Newspapers, by their very nature, report day to day occurences. Like soldiers being killed.


http://www.balloon-juice.com/archives/005631.html

captain underpants just doesn't like the fact that his gang have fu*kked it up in Iraq and the press is reporting on it. he just doesn't want folks to know about it.

its the same slimey attribute of a used car salesman who dismisses the engine knock but brags about the quality of the car radio.

btw: My own brother is back over there for a second tour in three years and he tells me it is a complete frigging disaster.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2005 07:57 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Isn't Fort Bragg, North Carolina, where Bush acknowledged that many in the U.S. are questioning his course, the home of the 18th Airborne Corps?


Yes, Walter, it is. It is also, ironically, named for Braxton Bragg, one of the biggest "Yankee haters" in the history of the country. He once framed a question on a mathematics examination: "Two Indiana volunteers run away from the battle of Buena Vista, one is running at four miles an hour, the other at five miles an hour . . . "
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2005 07:59 am
God bless him, Kuvasz. I'll keep him in my prayers for a safe return.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2005 08:04 am
kuvasz wrote:
Quote:
Sure, there have been heroics, and I have linked to the media accounts. However, that does not change the fact that soldiers getting blown up is more newsworthy to most people than someone winning a Silver Star. That doesn;t mean that we don;t know both has happened.

In my local newspaper, it isn't front page news when the Mayor goes to a ribbon-cutting ceremony, or when the mayor approves the budget, orw hen town council votes on new street signs. It sure as hell is front page news if the mayor gets caught bribing people, or is caught doing something wrong.

Ifyou want good news from Iraq, there are lots of places to go- try the Army Times, try the Defense department's website. Chock full of good news.

The rest of us, however, like the fact that the media covers it when 16 of our boys and girls are shot down in a helicopter and that is treated more importantly than someone doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Newspapers, by their very nature, report day to day occurences. Like soldiers being killed.


http://www.balloon-juice.com/archives/005631.html

captain underpants just doesn't like the fact that his gang have fu*kked it up in Iraq and the press is reporting on it. he just doesn't want folks to know about it.

its the same slimey attribute of a used car salesman who dismisses the engine knock but brags about the quality of the car radio.

btw: My own brother is back over there for a second tour in three years and he tells me it is a complete frigging disaster.


My name is McGentrix, I'd appreciate it if you used it as I do not care for the cute nicknames.

If you do not have something good to say about the war in Iraq, then you have no need to post in this thread. Make your own thread, or post in any of the other threads.

I know I won't get your cooperation in this matter as many of you feel threatened whenever anything positive is posted and feel it is your duty to inunudate any thread such as this with the continuous stream of negativity and garbage.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2005 10:20 am
McGentrix wrote:
kuvasz wrote:
Quote:
Sure, there have been heroics, and I have linked to the media accounts. However, that does not change the fact that soldiers getting blown up is more newsworthy to most people than someone winning a Silver Star. That doesn;t mean that we don;t know both has happened.

In my local newspaper, it isn't front page news when the Mayor goes to a ribbon-cutting ceremony, or when the mayor approves the budget, orw hen town council votes on new street signs. It sure as hell is front page news if the mayor gets caught bribing people, or is caught doing something wrong.

Ifyou want good news from Iraq, there are lots of places to go- try the Army Times, try the Defense department's website. Chock full of good news.

The rest of us, however, like the fact that the media covers it when 16 of our boys and girls are shot down in a helicopter and that is treated more importantly than someone doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Newspapers, by their very nature, report day to day occurences. Like soldiers being killed.


http://www.balloon-juice.com/archives/005631.html

captain underpants just doesn't like the fact that his gang have fu*kked it up in Iraq and the press is reporting on it. he just doesn't want folks to know about it.

its the same slimey attribute of a used car salesman who dismisses the engine knock but brags about the quality of the car radio.

btw: My own brother is back over there for a second tour in three years and he tells me it is a complete frigging disaster.


My name is McGentrix, I'd appreciate it if you used it as I do not care for the cute nicknames.

If you do not have something good to say about the war in Iraq, then you have no need to post in this thread. Make your own thread, or post in any of the other threads.

I know I won't get your cooperation in this matter as many of you feel threatened whenever anything positive is posted and feel it is your duty to inunudate any thread such as this with the continuous stream of negativity and garbage.


Captain Underpants, you aren't fu*kking God and I will post on this site when and wherever I damn well please.

The only garbage being strewn around here is your incessant use of mealy-mouthed and dishonest propaganda to support the unsupportable and defend the indefensible.

As I have stated, I have family in an American military uniform right now in the Gulf and every day our family prays that my brother does not get killed for the arrogance and stupidity of Bush, which you support with your mouth while my family supports with its own blood.

In other words, I have a dog in this fight and will not capitulate to those like you who believe that objectivity and dissent have no place in representative democracy.

if you don't like dissent, you should move elsewhere.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2005 11:22 am
kuvasz wrote:
Captain Underpants, you aren't fu*kking God and I will post on this site when and wherever I damn well please.

The only garbage being strewn around here is your incessant use of mealy-mouthed and dishonest propaganda to support the unsupportable and defend the indefensible.

As I have stated, I have family in an American military uniform right now in the Gulf and every day our family prays that my brother does not get killed for the arrogance and stupidity of Bush, which you support with your mouth while my family supports with its own blood.

In other words, I have a dog in this fight and will not capitulate to those like you who believe that objectivity and dissent have no place in representative democracy.

if you don't like dissent, you should move elsewhere.


It's good to know someone in your family has some brains and a sense of duty. You obviously lack both.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2005 11:34 am
How about some good news from North Korea!

Quote:

North Korea has developed a candy it claims is good for children and will help them increase their height, weight and IQ, a pro-North Korea newspaper published in Japan said on Friday.

"Unlike medications that help growth by clinical methods or hormonal effects, the growth nutritional candy has no negative side effects," the Choson Sinbo said, based on an interview with the head of a nutritional research center in the North.


link to entire article
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 09:28 am
Mainstream media suppress Iraq optimism
Michael Fumento

July 28, 2005

Editorial page associate editor Mark Yost at the Knight-Ridder newspaper the St. Paul Pioneer Press committed a major boo-boo. He penned a provocative column on media coverage of the Iraq war, observing that from what his contacts there told him - with apologies to Johnny Mercer - the mainstream media are accentuating the negative and ignoring the positive.

Yost couldn't have imagined he was bathing in blood and throwing himself into the shark pen. His media colleagues were merciless. "With your column, you have spat on the copy of the brave men and women who are doing their best in terrible conditions," reporter Chuck Laszewski at the same newspaper charged in an open letter. "You have insulted them and demeaned them," he wrote. "I am embarrassed to call you my colleague."

Knight-Ridder D.C. Bureau Chief Clark Hoyt devoted a column to a Yost roast, taking time out only to slam U.S. progress in Iraq. To read it is to know exactly why so many Americans believe we can't trust the media to fairly cover the war.

OF COURSE the war coverage is slanted: The adage "If it bleeds it leads" doesn't halt at the Iraqi border. That's why when two small shells land in a barren section of city the size of Boston CNN.com blares: "Blasts rock Baghdad near coalition headquarters" whereas the completion of an electrification program or water main gets not a column inch.

It was the very obviousness of Yost's observation that led to vicious attacks attempting to either show there is no bias or that alternatively there is a bias but it's justified.

One reporter claimed on the Poynter Institute's Romenesko open blog for journalists that Yost "must not be watching the network nightly newscasts," yet that's exactly what Yost was criticizing. David Hannners, another Pioneer Press reporter, insisted the media have no obligation to present positive stories because war itself is a negative thing. Come again?

At Romenesko's site, a charge Hoyt leveled at Yost was repeated time and again. "It's astonishing that Mark Yost, from the distance and safety of St. Paul, Minnesota, presumes to know what's going on in Iraq." Never mind that Hoyt himself hasn't gone or surely he'd have said he did.

Behold a clear double standard for Iraq commentators. If you attack U.S. war efforts, you may do so all you wish from the safety and comfort of American soil. Conversely, don't even think about writing something positive unless you've spent time in Iraq - notwithstanding that your dispatches may be filed from the safety and comfort of a cozy hotel behind layers of concrete barriers and concertina wire.


One of the reporters who was gnawing on Yost's right leg and working her way up to the pelvis, Knight-Ridder Baghdad Bureau Chief Hannah Allam, challenged him to go to Baghdad, adding facetiously "it might be too far for Mr. Yost to travel (and I don't blame him, given the treacherous airport road to reach our fortress-like hotel)."

So she's admitting she stays in a heavily protected hotel, which means she's also in the safety of the Green Zone. She doesn't say that all civilians taking the airport road travel in a vehicle that's so heavily armored it would take a nuclear improvised explosive to stop it.

As it happens, I did go to Iraq. I was embedded with the Marines at Camp Fallujah in hostile Anbar province, nearly lost my life, and returned with a colostomy bag as a souvenir. But before that I walked and drove through the streets of Fallujah, which for some odd reason fell off the media map right after the major blood-letting ended. I reported back on progress in reconstruction of buildings and providing electricity and water to parts of the area that NEVER had it. And I can't begin to count the e-mails I got from soldiers and Marines thanking me for telling it like it is.

Yost was right; media coverage on the war is terribly slanted - such that it may threaten our ability to win. This was much more clearly shown in the reaction to his piece than in the column itself. In any case, it's astonishing that his attackers, from the distance and safety of Washington, D.C. and St. Paul, presume to know what's going on in Iraq.

Source
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 09:30 am
Yosts' article
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 06:57 pm
kuvasz wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
kuvasz wrote:
Quote:
Sure, there have been heroics, and I have linked to the media accounts. However, that does not change the fact that soldiers getting blown up is more newsworthy to most people than someone winning a Silver Star. That doesn;t mean that we don;t know both has happened.

In my local newspaper, it isn't front page news when the Mayor goes to a ribbon-cutting ceremony, or when the mayor approves the budget, orw hen town council votes on new street signs. It sure as hell is front page news if the mayor gets caught bribing people, or is caught doing something wrong.

Ifyou want good news from Iraq, there are lots of places to go- try the Army Times, try the Defense department's website. Chock full of good news.

The rest of us, however, like the fact that the media covers it when 16 of our boys and girls are shot down in a helicopter and that is treated more importantly than someone doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Newspapers, by their very nature, report day to day occurences. Like soldiers being killed.


http://www.balloon-juice.com/archives/005631.html

captain underpants just doesn't like the fact that his gang have fu*kked it up in Iraq and the press is reporting on it. he just doesn't want folks to know about it.

its the same slimey attribute of a used car salesman who dismisses the engine knock but brags about the quality of the car radio.

btw: My own brother is back over there for a second tour in three years and he tells me it is a complete frigging disaster.


My name is McGentrix, I'd appreciate it if you used it as I do not care for the cute nicknames.

If you do not have something good to say about the war in Iraq, then you have no need to post in this thread. Make your own thread, or post in any of the other threads.

I know I won't get your cooperation in this matter as many of you feel threatened whenever anything positive is posted and feel it is your duty to inunudate any thread such as this with the continuous stream of negativity and garbage.


Captain Underpants, you aren't fu*kking God and I will post on this site when and wherever I damn well please.

The only garbage being strewn around here is your incessant use of mealy-mouthed and dishonest propaganda to support the unsupportable and defend the indefensible.

As I have stated, I have family in an American military uniform right now in the Gulf and every day our family prays that my brother does not get killed for the arrogance and stupidity of Bush, which you support with your mouth while my family supports with its own blood.

In other words, I have a dog in this fight and will not capitulate to those like you who believe that objectivity and dissent have no place in representative democracy.

if you don't like dissent, you should move elsewhere.


Hey kuvasz get off your high horse. You're not the only one with a dog in this fight. When you degrade the efforts and good news from Iraq you are indeed degrading the efforts of the troops who are indeed working hard to make a difference. When you knock down good news with bull crap you don't give the effort of the troops any news. You give them the impression that they are only there to die and that they serve no other purpose. Hard at work people like to be recognized for the things and actions they do.

According to many on this board soldiers are sadistic killers, sick rapists or great bullet and IED catchers. They are either stupid, poor or gullible. But by golly you guys support the troops. The only troops that are believed by you guys are the ones who talk out against the war or the ones who have a yellow stripe down their backs. If a soldier believes in what they are doing they fall into the stupid and gullible categories.

How the hell can you support the troops when what I have said is all I hear about the soldiers? You support then but you support nothing that they do. I guess this was the point was made in the article by Dennis Prager. You don't want them to die but you don't want them to succeed either.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 07:11 pm
That post by kuvasz and some by goodfielder are among the lowest points I've seen.

With all the other places where the bad news abounds, they refused to let this thread be for good news.

I don't think I'll defer to the wishes of other thread-starters any longer. Why should I?
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 07:21 pm
Lash wrote:
That post by kuvasz and some by goodfielder are among the lowest points I've seen.

With all the other places where the bad news abounds, they refused to let this thread be for good news.

I don't think I'll defer to the wishes of other thread-starters any longer. Why should I?


You don't have to listen when 75-95% of the board agress with you. If you are of the otherside like we are we had better toe the line.
0 Replies
 
 

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