0
   

No Nattering Nabobs!

 
 
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 09:52 am
A roundup of the past two weeks' good news from Iraq.

Lots of good stuff here folks. Take your time and read it.
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 3,255 • Replies: 50
No top replies

 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 09:54 am
Why didn't you respond to this article on the Irac thread, McG?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 09:56 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Yes, it was really all good stuff what happened in the last two weeks - quite cynical, to ignore especially last weekend.


Read the title Walter. Seeing the good is not ignoring the bad. but constantly harping on the negative is useless and infantile.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 09:59 am
Okay, and sorry it took so long until my edited response came up.
(McG was responding to my original response.)
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 10:48 am
Outstanding. Can we send our troops home now?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 01:14 am
Quote:
IRAQ: A bloody mess

By Patrick Cockburn
28 June 2005


A year ago the supposed handover of power by the US occupation authority to an Iraqi interim government led by Iyad Allawi was billed as a turning point in the violent history of post-Saddam Iraq.

It has turned out to be no such thing. Most of Iraq is today a bloody no-man's land beset by ruthless insurgents, savage bandit gangs, trigger-happy US patrols and marauding government forces.

On 28 June 2004 Mr Allawi was all smiles. "In a few days, Iraq will radiate with stability and security," he promised at the handover ceremony. That mood of optimism did not last long.

On Sunday the American Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld, told a US news programme that the ongoing insurgency could last "five, six, eight, ten, twelve years".

Yesterday in London, after meeting Tony Blair, the new Iraqi Prime Minister, Ibrahim al-Jaafari, tried to be more upbeat, commenting: "I think two years will be enough and more than enough to establish security".

Tonight President George Bush will make his most important address since the invasion, speaking to troops at the US army base at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He is expected to seek to assure increasingly sceptical Americans that he has a plan to prevail in Iraq, and that the US is not trapped in a conflict as unwinnable as the one in Vietnam, three decades ago.

The news now from Iraq is only depressing. All the roads leading out of the capital are cut. Iraqi security and US troops can only get through in heavily armed convoys. There is a wave of assassinations of senior Iraqi officers based on chillingly accurate intelligence. A deputy police chief of Baghdad was murdered on Sunday. A total of 52 senior Iraqi government or religious figures have been assassinated since the handover. In June 2004 insurgents killed 42 US soldiers; so far this month 75 have been killed.

The "handover of power" last June was always a misnomer. Much real power remained in the hands of the US. Its 140,000 troops kept the new government in business. Mr Allawi's new cabinet members became notorious for the amount of time they spent out of the country. Safely abroad they often gave optimistic speeches predicting the imminent demise of the insurgency.

Despite this the number of Iraqi military and police being killed every month has risen from 160 at the handover to 219 today.

There were two further supposed turning points over the past year. The first was the capture by US Marines of the rebel stronghold of Fallujah last November after a bloody battle which left most of the city of 300,000 people in ruins. In January there was the general election in which the Shia and Kurds triumphed.

Both events were heavily covered by the international media. But such is the danger for television and newspaper correspondents in Iraq that their capacity to report is more and more limited. The fall of Fallujah did not break the back of the resistance. Their best fighters simply retreated to fight again elsewhere. Many took refuge in Baghdad. At the same time as the insurgents lost Fallujah they captured most of Mosul, a far larger city. Much of Sunni Iraq remained under their sway.

At the handover of power the number of foreign fighters in the insurgency was estimated in the "low hundreds". That figure has been revised up to at least 1,000 and the overall figure for the number of insurgents is put at 16,000.

The election may have been won by the Shia and Kurds but it was boycotted by the five million Sunnis and they are the core of the rebellion. It took three months to put together a new government as Sunni, Shia, Kurds and Americans competed for their share of the cake. For all their declarations about Iraqi security, the US wanted to retain as much power in its own hands as it could. When the Shia took over the interior ministry its intelligence files were hastily transferred to the US headquarters in the Green Zone.

To most ordinary Iraqis in Baghdad it is evident that life over the past year has been getting worse. The insurgents seem to have an endless supply of suicide bombers whose attacks ensure a permanent sense of threat. In addition the necessities of life are becoming more difficult to obtain. At one moment last winter there were queues of cars outside petrol stations several miles long.

The sense of fear in Baghdad is difficult to convey. Petrol is such a necessity because people need to pick up their children from school because they are terrified of them being kidnapped. Parents mob the doors of schools and swiftly become hysterical if they cannot find their children. Doctors are fleeing the country because so many have been held for ransom, some tortured and killed because their families could not raise the money.

Homes in Baghdad are currently getting between six and eight hours' electricity a day. Nothing has improved at the power stations since the hand-over of security a year ago. In a city where the temperature yesterday was 40C, people swelter without air conditioning because the omnipresent small generators do not produce enough current to keep them going. In recent weeks there has also been a chronic shortage of water.

Some Iraqis have benefited. Civil servants and teachers are better paid, though prices are higher. But Iraqis in general hoped that their standard of living would improve dramatically after the fall of Saddam Hussein and it has not.

Adding to the sense of fear in Baghdad is the growth of sectarianism, the widening gulf between Sunni and Shia. Shia mosques come under attack from bombers. Members of both communities are found murdered beside the road, in escalating rounds of tit-for-tat killings.

The talks between US officials and some resistance groups revealed in the past few days probably does not mean very much for the moment. The fanatical Islamic and militant former Baathists and nationalists who make up the cutting edge of insurgency are not in the mood to compromise. They are also very fragmented. But the talks may indicate a growing sense among US military and civilian officials that they cannot win this war.

Patrick Cockburn was awarded the 2005 Martha Gellhorn prize for war reporting in recognition of his writing on Iraq over the past year

Then and now
Average daily attacks by insurgents
Pre-war March 2003: 0

Handover June 2004: 45

Now: 70

Analysis:

Figures should be viewed with caution because US military often does not record attacks if there are no American casualties.

Total number of coalition troops killed

Pre-war March 2003: 0

Handover June 2004: 982

Now: 1,930

Analysis:

Number of US troops killed increased sharply during Fallujah fighting in April and November 2004.

Iraqi civilians killed


Pre-war March 2003: n/a

Handover June 2004: 10,000

Now: 60,800 (includes 23,000 crime-related deaths)

Analysis:

Estimates of Iraqi civilian deaths have varied widely because the US military does not count them.

Electricity supply (megawatts generated)


Pre-war March 2003: 3,958

Handover June 2004: 4,293

Now: 4,035

Analysis:

Coalition is way behind its goal of providing 6,000 megawatts by July 2004. Most Iraqis do not have a reliable electricity supply.

Unemployed

Pre-war March 2003: n/a

Handover June 2004: 40%

Now: 40%

Analysis:

More than a third of young people are unemployed, a cause for social unrest. Many security men stay home, except on payday.

Telephones

Pre-war March 2003: 833,000 (landlines only)

Handover June 2004: 1.2m (includes mobiles)

Now: 3.1m

Analysis:

Landlines are extremely unreliable and mobile phone system could be improved.

Primary school access

Pre-war March 2003: 3.6m

Handover June 2004: 4.3m

Now: n/a

Analysis:

83 per cent of boys and 79 per cent of girls in primary schools. But figures mask declining literacy and failure rate.

Oil production (barrels a day)

Pre-war March 2003: 2.5m

Handover June 2004: 2.29m

Now: 2.20m

Analysis:

Sustainability of Iraqi oilfields has been jeopardised to boost output. Oil facilities regularly targeted by insurgents.



Source
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 06:18 am
You do not believe this could have been posted in any of the hundreds of other threads discussing the tragedies of the war? You had to pollute this one?

Thanks. Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 06:44 am
Uh-oh. The good news was "polluted" with contrary evidence. Now where have I read that before?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 06:51 am
goodfielder wrote:
Uh-oh. The good news was "polluted" with contrary evidence. Now where have I read that before?


That's not the point goodfielder. This isn't a contest to see who can outdo the other with news about Iraq, it's about seeing both sides.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 06:59 am
McGentrix wrote:
goodfielder wrote:
Uh-oh. The good news was "polluted" with contrary evidence. Now where have I read that before?


That's not the point goodfielder. This isn't a contest to see who can outdo the other with news about Iraq, it's about seeing both sides.


But then why isn't Walter's post just part of the balance? I'm not being hard to get on with - I can do that elsewhere - but if Walter can't post a contrary view with evidence then what is this?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:01 am
It is the not both sides now thread!!!!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:04 am
Because you can find the contrary view on other threads. It's not as though there is a drought of negative information regarding the US and Iraq on A2K...
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:06 am
McGentrix wrote:
Because you can find the contrary view on other threads. It's not as though there is a drought of negative information regarding the US and Iraq on A2K...


Fair enough. If you made the point that it was only to be limited to "good news only" then I'm sure it would be observed.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:11 am
What do you suppose the title of this thread is for?
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:12 am
Walters post is largely useless information designed only to bash the efforts of our troops.

For example:
"Average daily attacks by insurgents
Pre-war March 2003: 0

Handover June 2004: 45

Now: 70

Analysis:

Figures should be viewed with caution because US military often does not record attacks if there are no American casualties. "

Really now. NO INSURGENTS ATTACHED PRIOR TO March 2003??? NO SH!T!!! The insurgents were IN POWER!!!


"Total number of coalition troops killed

Pre-war March 2003: 0

Handover June 2004: 982

Now: 1,930

Really? No Americans were killed BEFORE the War???


"Unemployed

Pre-war March 2003: n/a

Handover June 2004: 40%

Now: 40%

Analysis:

More than a third of young people are unemployed, a cause for social unrest. Many security men stay home, except on payday. "

What does this mean ?? How many young Americans are no employed??? How young is young??

"Primary school access

Pre-war March 2003: 3.6m

Handover June 2004: 4.3m

Now: n/a

Analysis:

83 per cent of boys and 79 per cent of girls in primary schools. But figures mask declining literacy and failure rate"

That sounds pretty good until the unverifyable comment about literacy.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:17 am
"Happy days are here again........."

If you wanted a thread where everyone could celebrate the "good news" about the monumentally stupid decision to invade Iraq in spite of the evidence then why not say so? I'm happy not to "pollute" such a thread. Go for it. Delude yourselves. But for crying out loud tell people that it's a neo-con fantasy thread and reality is not approved.

"Bash the troops" woiyo. That is disgusting. In years to come people will look back at this with at the very least disdain. No-one is bashing the troops. That is a vile suggestion. Those poor bastards are dying for nothing. Remember the comments about "blood and treasure"? Ask yourself, if you're capable, who made the decision to put people in danger, so that they would be killed. Ask who is making the decision to keep them there for - how long? Years? According to Rumsfeld it could be years? Ask yourself why? Why are they there? If you were asked to justify the death of just one military person then what justification would you give? I mean a real justification, not the crap you're being fed.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:21 am
Feel free to create your own thread showing all the bad things in the world.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:23 am
goodfielder wrote:
"Happy days are here again........."

If you wanted a thread where everyone could celebrate the "good news" about the monumentally stupid decision to invade Iraq in spite of the evidence then why not say so? I'm happy not to "pollute" such a thread. Go for it. Delude yourselves. But for crying out loud tell people that it's a neo-con fantasy thread and reality is not approved.


Apparently the liberal mind-set down under is no different then here in the States.

Just because there is some positive work being done in Iraq does not mean it is a "neo-con" fantasy. Regardless of your opinion of the war, one has to admit that OUR coalition forces are doing a very good job given their restrictions from the coalitions politicians.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:26 am
Everything in the first post of this thread is true and verified. I doubt Goodfielder even bothered to read it.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:33 am
Lol! McGentrix - I suspect Goodfielder, not being American, and possibly being young, neither has, nor ought to be expected to have, the foggiest notion of what your nattering nabobs title refers to - and hence had no idea that you did not want any news you consider negative about Iraq on this thread.

I would suggest that a number of Americans will also have no idea.

Before you get into insulting Goodfielder farther, and he gets more peed off with you, it may be worth explaining that the egregiously awful Nixon Vice President, Spiro Agnew, who was much given to having such gems written for him, condemned anyone to the left of him and Nixon who said anything - especially in the media or the much shat upon halls of learning - as "nattering nabobs of negativity".

Thus, the thread title indicates to those who know this fact, that any dissenting voices are to stay away.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » No Nattering Nabobs!
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.11 seconds on 05/04/2024 at 11:58:06