1
   

Government Can Take Your Home if Someone Important Wants It

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 04:54 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:

Why can't the courts protect us when we want them to protect us and keep their nose out of issues we want them to leave alone? I don't want the Fourteenth Amendment to protect homosexuals, but I want the Fourteenth Amendment to protect ME!


How typical of you. I'm not suggesting that the government protect me. I want them not to take my house.

<Toned down, per the A2K Gods>



Oh . . . sorry Brandon . . . I concluded from your lamentful statement, "I find it awful that we are suddenly reduced to trying to pass laws . . . ," that you would have preferred the Supreme Court to protect your interests via the Fourteenth Amendment rather than having to do the work yourself through the democratic political process that Americans brag about and cherish.

If you are not suggesting that the Supreme Court protect your property interests, and you find it so awful to resort to the democratic political processes of your state, how are you going to get what you want?

Yes, NOW that one part of the Federal government has given the rich and powerful the green light to take my home, I have no alternative but to ask state and local governments to protect me. What I actually want is that the Federal government not place me in the danger in the first place, by declaring that people can take my home away from me. I would prefer that the government leave me alone for the most part, so that I do not need one part of the government to protect me from another part. What I really want is for them to stay out of my life except for a few basic functions.
0 Replies
 
john w k
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 05:02 pm
Re: avoiding and evading
Debra_Law wrote:
john w k wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:


If we confine Fourteenth Amendment construction and jurisprudence in the manner that you demand in accordance with the framers' intent as you proclaim that intent to be, then the Fifth Amendment would only apply to federal action and the Supreme Court would not have jurisdiction to even hear the Kelo case.


Ah! You are finally beginning to wake up! The fact is, as the case was presented, there was no federal question, but, the SCOTUS decided to not only take the case, but the majority opinion used its position of power to side with one of the litigants!

* * *
No one on this end has ever suggested the Fifth Amendment was intended to be applied to state action.

* * *

Now why would I want to apply the Fifth Amendment to state action and allow the feds to interfere in state action and undermine federalism? I will say, however, that If a state passed legislation designed to take property based upon race, color or previous condition of slavery, then, and only then, would their be a federal question involved, but it would be involved via the intent of the 14th Amendment, not the Fifth. Are you beginning to learn now?



According to you, and based on your extremely limited . . .


Now wait a second Debra, before moving forward, you own me an explanation concerning a charge of hypocrisy you leveled at me.

Debra_Law wrote:

You know exactly what my objections are to your criticism. It centers on your hypocrisy. I specifically set forth your prior inconsistent stance on the Fourteenth Amendment that makes your current criticism of the Supreme Court a farce.



Debra_Law wrote:

You painted yourself into a corner, and you don't want to address your inconsistent construction of the Fourteenth Amendment because that would require substantial backtracking and double talk. I understand your desire to avoid my post, but at least be honest. Don't pretend that my post didn't make sense. You know what I'm talking about.



Yes Debra, it’s time to be honest. For the second time, what hypocrisy? Support your charge. Post my previous words and the words in this thread which support your claim. Or is you charge based upon one of your erroneous presumptions about what is in my mind, or what you falsely assert is in my mind? Explain. What inconsistent stance? Explain. Quote my specific words and then explain.

Now, before moving on, please explain your charge or retract the false accusations you leveled at me.


JWK
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 05:23 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Yes, NOW that one part of the Federal government has given the rich and powerful the green light to take my home, I have no alternative but to ask state and local governments to protect me. What I actually want is that the Federal government not place me in the danger in the first place, by declaring that people can take my home away from me. I would prefer that the government leave me alone for the most part, so that I do not need one part of the government to protect me from another part. What I really want is for them to stay out of my life except for a few basic functions.



The Supreme Court didn't give your state government the "green light" to do something it never had a right to do in the first place. Your state government and state political subdivisions have always had the power to take private property for public use providing the government pays just compensation.

Complacency has a price tag in terms of the erosion of individual rights. So long as the government is taking someone else's private property under the broad doctrine of "public use," most people just go on with their lives without giving expansive governmental powers much thought at all.

The Kelo case shines the spotlight on that governmental power, and if we believe government is getting too big for it britches, we need to take steps to curtail that power.

We all want to live our lives FREE from unreasonable government intrusions. Unfortunately, so long as the government is intruding into someone else's life . . . most of us remain silent. Others demand that the government regulate everything. Where do we draw the lines?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 05:34 pm
Re: avoiding and evading
john w k wrote:
Support your charge. Post my previous words and the words in this thread which support your claim.



I posted your previous posts; I quoted you word for word. Oh well. Keep evading. . . .
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 05:36 pm
john w k wrote:
...
ACRS


Accelerated Cost Recovery System?

Australian Coral Reef Society?

Asian Counseling and Referral Service?

Australian Cabler Registration Service?


Just curious.

Ticomaya
B.A.
M.B.A.
J.D.
LL.M.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 05:47 pm
BA = Bad Ass
MBA = Master Bad Ass
JD = Jaded Dullard
LLM = Last Laugh Maniac
0 Replies
 
john w k
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 09:01 pm
Re: avoiding and evading
Debra_Law wrote:
john w k wrote:
Support your charge. Post my previous words and the words in this thread which support your claim.



I posted your previous posts; I quoted you word for word. Oh well. Keep evading. . . .



You may have reposted what I have written, but in doing so you have offered nothing to substantiate your charge of hypocrisy leveled at me, nor presented any statement made by me showing that I have been inconsistent in my position concerning the 14th Amendment. In essences, you have level an unsubstantiated personal attack upon my character which violates the rules of this forum. Personally, your conduct does not bother me, but it does detract from a productive conversation .
0 Replies
 
john w k
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 09:17 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Yes, NOW that one part of the Federal government has given the rich and powerful the green light to take my home, I have no alternative but to ask state and local governments to protect me. What I actually want is that the Federal government not place me in the danger in the first place, by declaring that people can take my home away from me. I would prefer that the government leave me alone for the most part, so that I do not need one part of the government to protect me from another part. What I really want is for them to stay out of my life except for a few basic functions.



The Supreme Court didn't give your state government the "green light" to do something it never had a right to do in the first place. Your state government and state political subdivisions have always had the power to take private property for public use . . .



Exactly so . . . For public use! But in the case in question, the property is not being taken for public use, but rather, is being taken by government and being transferred to another for their private use in a profit making venture.

In consequence of the Courts majority opinion "Any property may now be taken for the benefit of another private party, but the fallout from this decision will not be random," O'Connor wrote. "The beneficiaries are likely to be those citizens with disproportionate influence and power in the political process, including large corporations and development firms."

She was joined in her opinion by Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, as well as Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.


So, do you really believe it was the intent of those who framed and ratified that state’s constitution to allow folks in government to use their office of public trust and government power to seize the property of one individual with the specific intention of transferring that property to another for a profit making business venture?


JWK
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:47 pm
Re: avoiding and evading
john w k wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
john w k wrote:
Support your charge. Post my previous words and the words in this thread which support your claim.



I posted your previous posts; I quoted you word for word. Oh well. Keep evading. . . .



You may have reposted what I have written, but in doing so you have offered nothing to substantiate your charge of hypocrisy leveled at me, nor presented any statement made by me showing that I have been inconsistent in my position concerning the 14th Amendment. In essences, you have level an unsubstantiated personal attack upon my character which violates the rules of this forum. Personally, your conduct does not bother me, but it does detract from a productive conversation .



I already quoted you and set forth your inconsistent construction and application of the Fourteenth Amendment in previous posts. Given your stance on the Fourteenth Amendment, your current criticism of the Supreme Court is a farce. You are still evading. Oh well.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:09 pm
[double post]
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:09 pm
john w k wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Yes, NOW that one part of the Federal government has given the rich and powerful the green light to take my home, I have no alternative but to ask state and local governments to protect me. What I actually want is that the Federal government not place me in the danger in the first place, by declaring that people can take my home away from me. I would prefer that the government leave me alone for the most part, so that I do not need one part of the government to protect me from another part. What I really want is for them to stay out of my life except for a few basic functions.



The Supreme Court didn't give your state government the "green light" to do something it never had a right to do in the first place. Your state government and state political subdivisions have always had the power to take private property for public use . . .



Exactly so . . . For public use! But in the case in question, the property is not being taken for public use, but rather, is being taken by government and being transferred to another for their private use in a profit making venture.

In consequence of the Courts majority opinion "Any property may now be taken for the benefit of another private party, but the fallout from this decision will not be random," O'Connor wrote. "The beneficiaries are likely to be those citizens with disproportionate influence and power in the political process, including large corporations and development firms."

She was joined in her opinion by Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, as well as Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.


So, do you really believe it was the intent of those who framed and ratified that state’s constitution to allow folks in government to use their office of public trust and government power to seize the property of one individual with the specific intention of transferring that property to another for a profit making business venture?


JWK



The Supreme Court reviewed the entire record in the case and rejected the argument that the state political subdivision was taking property from A for the purpose of giving it to B.

Quoting the dissenting opinion doesn't bolster your view of the case. Additionally, the Supreme Court was not interpreting nor applying the Connecticut State Constitution. Rolling Eyes So your speculation about the intent of framers and ratififiers of the "that state constitution" is totally irrelevant.

And, given your ardent stance that the Supreme Court did not have jurisdiction to hear the case in the first place (no federal question)--and your ardent support of federalism--that this is a STATE issue--you seem to have missed the point that the Court ruled in favor of the STATE. You should be delighted that the Supreme Court refrained from meddling in a states' rights issue.

According to you, the property owners in Kelo weren't entitled to the floor protections of the Fifth Amendment's takings clause in the first place because this amendment applies to federal action only. And, according to you, since the property wasn't being taken on account of the property owners' race, color, or former condition of slavery, the Fourteenth Amendment didn't apply. So . . . as an ardent supporter of federalism . . . the STATE got its way! Bravo for states' rights!

As I said before, you don't have a beef with the Supreme Court unless you do a heck of a lot of backtracking and double talk.

FINAL ANALYSIS: It is clearly up to the people in each state to determine for themselves how they will limit the "public use" doctrine through the use of the democratic political process. You don't approve of that?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 05:36 am
It appears however that this case is spurring some grass roots activism from those who think the courts were wrong on this one:


Quote:

http://www.ij.org/private_property/connecticut/6_29_05ma.html
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 05:46 am
Good stuff Foxfyre - democracy at work.
And that reminds me of a very popular Australian film of a few years ago "The Castle". The little bloke won of course.

http://wwwmcc.murdoch.edu.au/ReadingRoom/film/dbase/2000/Castle.html
0 Replies
 
john w k
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 06:23 am
Re: avoiding and evading
Debra_Law wrote:
john w k wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
john w k wrote:
Support your charge. Post my previous words and the words in this thread which support your claim.



I posted your previous posts; I quoted you word for word. Oh well. Keep evading. . . .



You may have reposted what I have written, but in doing so you have offered nothing to substantiate your charge of hypocrisy leveled at me, nor presented any statement made by me showing that I have been inconsistent in my position concerning the 14th Amendment. In essences, you have level an unsubstantiated personal attack upon my character which violates the rules of this forum. Personally, your conduct does not bother me, but it does detract from a productive conversation .



I already quoted you and set forth your inconsistent construction and application of the Fourteenth Amendment in previous posts. Given your stance on the Fourteenth Amendment, your current criticism of the Supreme Court is a farce. You are still evading. Oh well.


Please post a link to your post in which you set forth my “inconsistent construction and application of the Fourteenth Amendment. “

And just what is my current criticism in the case being discussed in this thread? Please post my words and explain how it is hypocritical and inconsistent with what I have posted in the past as you have charged.

I’m waiting, Debra, for you to support your charges which have called my character into question.
0 Replies
 
john w k
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 06:57 am
Debra_Law wrote:

And, given your ardent stance that the Supreme Court did not have jurisdiction to hear the case in the first place (no federal question)--and your ardent support of federalism--that this is a STATE issue--you seem to have missed the point that the Court ruled in favor of the STATE.


That is the point, Debra. Just as I posted in my previous post:


“Ah! You are finally beginning to wake up! The fact is, as the case was presented, there was no federal question, but, the SCOTUS decided to not only take the case, but the majority opinion used its position of power to side with one of the litigants.”


Fact is, the majority on the SCOTUS asserted that a state’s public servants may use their position of power to take the property of a citizen and sell it to another citizen for a profit making venture, and that such action is within the intended four corners of the constitution .
Debra_Law wrote:

As I said before, you don't have a beef with the Supreme Court unless you do a heck of a lot of backtracking and double talk.


No backtracking or double talking on this end. How about on your end, Debra? You still have offered nothing to substantiate your charge of hypocrisy leveled at me, nor presented any statement made by me showing that I have been inconsistent in my position concerning the 14th Amendment. In essences, you have level an unsubstantiated personal attack upon my character which violates the rules of this forum. Personally, your conduct does not bother me, but it does detract from a productive conversation .


JWK
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 11:55 am
JWK:

You claim to be an constitutional expert who runs his own "American Constitutional Research Service." Accordingly, if you have the slightest idea of the things you are talking about, you should be able to read my posts and understand them.

Either you're evading or avoiding or you truly don't understand. If it's the former, I'm tired of your hypocritical game. If it's the latter, you truly need to reevaluate the merits of presenting yourself as a constitutional expert.

* * * *

hy·poc·ri·sy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-pkr-s)
n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies

1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

2. An act or instance of such falseness.

* * * *

Here are your professed beliefs:

PROFESSED BELIEF No. 1: The Bill of Rights (including the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment) applies to FEDERAL ACTION ONLY. The Takings Clause does not apply to STATE ACTION.

PROFESSED BELIEF No. 2: The Fourteenth Amendment applies to STATE ACTION, but only when a state seeks to regulate on the basis of race, color, or former condition of slavery.

PROFESSED BELIEF No. 3: Your first two "professed beliefs" are based on your construction of the Constitution which in turn is based on what you believe was the original intent of the framers and ratifiers of the Bill of Rights and Fourteenth Amendment.

PROFESSED BELIEF No. 4: Whenever the United States Supreme Court applies any of the protections in the Bill of Rights to STATE ACTION (via the Fourteenth Amendment), the Supreme Court is subverting the Constitution, betraying Federalism, committing an act of Tyranny, and becomes a PUBLIC ENEMY.

PROFESSED BELIEF No. 5: FEDERALISM. Unless given explicit authority under the Constitution through one of its delegated, enumerated powers, the federal government is required to keep its nose out of STATE business. In other words, you are a proponent of STATES' RIGHTS.

* * *

NOW. Given your professed beliefs, the Supreme Court did not have authority to apply the takings clause of the Fifth Amendment to STATE ACTION in the Kelo case via the Fourteenth Amendment.

ALSO. Given your professed beliefs, the issue of "public use" with respect to STATE ACTION is a STATES' RIGHTS issue.

ALSO. Given your professed beliefs, the people in the State of Connecticut cannot rely on the takings clause of the Fifth Amendment to provide federal constitutional protection against STATE takings cases; they cannot rely on the federal government via the U.S. Supreme Court to grant them protection they are not entitled to have in our system of federalism, and the people of the State of Connecticut must look to their own democratic political processes of their own state to limit their own state's power of eminent domain.

ALSO. Given your professed beliefs, you should be thrilled that the United States Supreme Court ruled in favor of the STATE because, AGAIN, according to your professed beliefs, the federal courts did not have jurisdiction to hear this particular grievance and the people's remedy, if any, lies with their own state government.

* * * *

HOWEVER, DESPITE YOUR PROFESSED BELIEFS, you criticize the Supreme Court for its failure (in you eyes) to properly apply the FEDERAL "public use" doctrine to protect people against the harmful actions of their STATE government. Shocked

* * * *

CONCLUSION: Your current criticism of the United States Supreme Court demonstrates an instance of FALSENESS in the application of your professed beliefs . . . hence: HYPOCRISY. (See definition of HYPOCRISY posted above.)
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 12:40 pm
Under the current understanding of the law, would this scenario be possible?

Lets say I had a ton of money and found myself a piece of lakeside property somewhere. On that property stood a shack that the owners used as a vacation cabin.

Lets say I wanted that property and went to the city board and argued that if I had that land I would build a gigantic house on that property instead of the little shack that was there now. The property value would increase dramatically as would the property taxes for that land. One could argue that this is a better use of the land and the increase in taxes would benefit the community.

If I had a friend or two on the board to help push this through do you think it is a realistic possibility that I would be able to take the land away from the current owners and make it my own even though it would be for purely private use?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 01:23 pm
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Under the current understanding of the law, would this scenario be possible?

Lets say I had a ton of money and found myself a piece of lakeside property somewhere. On that property stood a shack that the owners used as a vacation cabin.

Lets say I wanted that property and went to the city board and argued that if I had that land I would build a gigantic house on that property instead of the little shack that was there now. The property value would increase dramatically as would the property taxes for that land. One could argue that this is a better use of the land and the increase in taxes would benefit the community.

If I had a friend or two on the board to help push this through do you think it is a realistic possibility that I would be able to take the land away from the current owners and make it my own even though it would be for purely private use?



Let me address this hypothetical using established law. (Not the screwed up, convoluted law according to JWK.)

The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment forbids the STATE from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. (Despite JWK's professed beliefs, the Fourteenth Amendment is not limited in its application to STATE regulation on the basis of race, color, or former condition of slavery.)

The United States Supreme Court has interpreted the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to incorporate the Fifth Amendment takings clause. Accordingly, the Fifth Amendment's "Takings Clause" sets forth the floor protections that all citizens have against either STATE or FEDERAL takings of private property for "public use." Remember, the Constitution provides the floor protections (not the ceiling). State governments are free (through the democratic process) to provide state citizens with MORE protection.

Under a FEDERAL CONSTITUTIONAL ANALYSIS, the taking in your hypothetical would be unconstititutional. Your hypothetical clearly demonstrates the taking of A's private property would be exclusively for the benefit of B.

However, if rich and powerful B proposed to take A's private property as part of a larger economic development plan (e.g., the taking of several lots or acres which includes not only building beautiful, expensive lake homes, but also includes a public beach, public access and walkways, public recreational facilities, etc.) it is probable that the taking would pass constitutional muster under the federal constitution.

However, that does not mean the taking in accordance with a proposed economic development plan would be proper under STATE law. You would have to refer to your state statutes and state constitution to determine whether you have greater protection under state law than you would have under federal constitutional law.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 01:43 pm
Interesting, Debra.

Couldn't one argue, though, that the only difference in the two situations is the amount of public benefit? After all the increase in property taxes in my senario would indeed benefit the community... just not as much as your situation where mulitple house are developed, as well as a beach, public access and recreation.

Does the amount if public benefit matter?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 01:53 pm
According to the majority opinion in Kelo, the factor that distinquished the circumstances in Kelo from an unconstitutional taking (i.e., taking private property from A to give it to B) was the existence of a comprehensive economic development plan that encompassed 90 acres and designed to (hopefully) revitalize an economically depressed community. Accordingly, the economic development plan satisfied a "public purpose" to bring it within the PUBLIC USE doctrine.

The KELO case made it clear that a taking of private property from A for the benefit of B would not pass constitutional muster.
0 Replies
 
 

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