Liberal Supremes at work

Well that is certainly a unique interpretation BBB.

Foxfyre


I knew it would thrill you. :wink:

BBB

Well, "thrill" might be a bit of a stretch.

I am pretty sure Jefferson didn't mean "Mom and Dad" when he referred to the Creator, however.

President Thomas Jefferson in his Notes on the State of Virginia:

Foxfyre
[quote="Foxfyre"]Well, "thrill" might be a bit of a stretch.

I am pretty sure Jefferson didn't mean "Mom and Dad" when he referred to the Creator, however.

President Thomas Jefferson in his Notes on the State of Virginia:
[quote]God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever[/quote][/quote]

And BBB, not a single thing you posted even suggests that the founders did not believe that inalienable rights come from God.

(P.S. If it was germane to the debate--which it is not--I could put up as many pro-religion quotes uttered by the founders as you can put up anti-religion posts uttered by the founders. Putting them all in context, pro-religion wins out.)

Foxfyre


Focfyre, so what else is new? Even then, smart polititians knew what was not politically correct when dealing with the public. Just because it wasn't PC does not make it not true.

Alas, I fear you did not carefully read all of the quotes in your haste to defend your mantra.

BBB

And wanting it not to be so makes it no more true than wanting it to be so. A careful analysis of the whole picture still comes down on the side of the Founders having a faith in God that the anti-relgious now wish to deny. And it also supports a point of view that our current president applying the same criteria to appointment of judges as the Founders applied is not so sinister as some wish it to be.

Oh, I don't think anyone denies that the founders had faith in god. In fact, they were probably a quite religious lot given some of the writings that I have read.

But, don't you see how careful they were to keep any vestige of religion or Christianity out of the formation of our new gov't? It must have been difficult to do so, but they did! This shows you just how important they considered the seperation of Church and State to be; and today, our leaders are actively working for less seperation of church and state. This is diametrically opposed to the wishes of our founding fathers.

Cycloptichorn

I believe they were very careful to make no establishment of religion and to favor no religion over any other in the Constiution. They were not at all careful to keep their religious convictions out of their arguments in support of the Constitution, and they almost to a man believed only people of faith would be able to keep the Constitution.

Nevertheless, to believe that our inalienable rights come from God and to exoress a conviction to appoint judges who understand what those inalienable rights are is not necessarily a bad thing.

Foxfyre


Foxfyre, now where did you come up with that little gem?

Are you daring to imply that because I'm an atheist I cannot and do not keep the constitution? Really?

BBB

I agree. I am personally insulted by the assumption you have that people not of faith cannot keep the constitution.

And I have never read anything to that effect, stating that atheists and agnostics and those of non-Christian Religions (who would have been considered Pagans, remember) would be unable to properly run the country or keep the constitution. I would like to see those quotes.

Cycloptichorn

Note to BBB and Cyclop, I wasn't the one who said athiests or anti-religious cannot keep the constitution. I said most of the Founders said that. Now you can get mad at me for pointing that out, but it doesn't change the fact that they believed it.

"Morality is the necessary spring of popular government...Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without Christianity." - George Washington

""If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering. But if we and our posterity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity."" - Daniel Webster

"If we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us, that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity." Daniel Webster

"We are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of Nature has placed in our power.... The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave." --Patrick Henry

William Penn, the founder of Pennsylvania, warned us of the consequences should people of faith relinquish their rightful role in the political process. "If we will not be governed by God," he cautioned, "we must be governed by tyrants."

"You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe." - John Adams

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -John Adams - October 11, 1798


The great American lexicographer, known as the "Father of American Education," Noah Webster stated, "In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed. The Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."

"Without religion, morality falters. When morality falters the Pandora's box of corruption, crime and decay set in to be followed by the demise of the nation." - Alexander Hamilton

"Resistance To Tyranny Is Obedience To GOD" -Thomas Jefferson

Source: Benjamin Franklin, The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, Jared Sparks, editor (Boston: Tappan, Whittemore and Mason, 1840), Vol. X, p. 297, April 17, 1787:
"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."


And so far as you being an athiest, BBB, I think it is obvious that I am not. Nevetheless, I do share Thomas Jefferson's opinion on that:

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. Thomas Jefferson

Note to Mesquite: And despite all that, the Republic has endured for well over 200 years now and the Constitution remains reasonably intact.

Foxfyre
Foxfyre, your quote response demonstrates that there are many arrogant religious bigots in our history and today who would discriminate against those who don't share their religious beliefs.

Can you name an institution is this world that has fostered as much violence and hatred as organized religion throughout world history?

To bring us back to the topic of this thread, the Constitution was supposed to protect us from that history. Sadly, that protection appears to be under attack today and the Supreme Court barely straddles the line of whimpiness in defence of that protection.

BBB

where the whole thing gets dicey is the nature of god that these rights come from. it's not that they come from "god", but rather who's "god".

for instance, remember the big brouha over "one nation, under god" a couple of years ago ? i was talking to my pop and he asked why i didn't like it and don't say it.

1) - i do pledge my allegiance to my country.

2) - people say that the "god" in the pledge can be any god. however, usually i hear that from the same people that want to post the ten commandments all over the place.

judge roy moore is one of those folks. in a recent interview i saw with him, he admitted after being asked several times, that yes, the "god" referred to in the pledge was the judaeo-christian god. i've heard others make similar pronouncements.

3) - so, being neither jewish, christian or even islamic, why would i pledge my allegiance to someone else's god, i.e., yahweh/jehovah ?

for anyone to insist that i do so violates my right of religious freedom and is a defacto establishment of government sponsored religion when included in my pledge of allegiance to my country. both are a violation of the first amendment.

it would appear that the conflict was evident to the baptist minister that authored the pledge in the late 1800's. his original oath did not include any referrence to god or religion at all. this is the original text;

"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the Republic for which it stands - One nation indivisible - with liberty and justice for all."

whether or not the founding fathers were christians, jews or deists isn't really the issue. that they chose to keep their personal opinions on religion separate from the formation and continuation of american government, and the fundimental/evangelical christian agenda to undermine that intent is.

edited once for a typo

BBB writes


The athiestic precepts of totalitarian regimes (Russia, China, North Korea, North Vietnam, etc. etc. etc.) easily rival any hatred and violence perpetuated in the name of religion.

Personally, I think the Founders did a heck of a job in putting together our republic and Constitution and the endurance of both gives testimony to their diligence to detail and attention to principle. I saw nowhere in any of the quotes where advocacy of any organized religion was a necessary component. Each was speaking to his personal convictions re being a people of faith. Bigotry by any name is bigotry nevertheless including bigotry directed at people of faith.

I believe the Constitution is under assault, yes, but it is not from people who believe as the Founders believed whether in matters of their belief in a Creator or in principles of governance.

I am very angry at Chistians.

This is not not because they use "faith" to inform their politics or their morality. I have a respect for the Jesus in the Bible and brave people in history who used the Christian faith for good.

I am angry at American Christians because they hold beliefs and policies that directly contradict the teachings of Christ. They use the Bible as a smokescreen for a repressive brand of politics.

What most Americans call "Christianity" today really stem from the Confederate social religion. This is why much of it is based on judgement, nationalism and policies to keep class differences. If you don't believe this, compare your religious positions with that of the KKK.

Most American Christians, while denouncing the KKK agree with them on most all issues. For the record if you oppose the UN, think the US is a Christian nation, oppose gun control because guns are a good way to stop crime, think homosexuals shouldn't have rights even in a democratic society, support capital punishment and are against any rights for undocmented immigrants I am talking about you.

Jesus cared about the poor, blessed peacemakers, taught forgiveness and compassion, stopped capital punishment and turned the other cheek.

The people running the joke called Christianity today accuse the poor of being welfare leeches, call for harsh sentences and imprisonment, champion capital punishment.

I think you can be a true Christian in a free democracy living under and respecting the Constition.

But I will say this very plainly-- Nationalism and Christianity don't mix. Jesus was very clear about that his Kingdom was in heaven. The current ideaology that most Americans call Christianity is a nationalistic call to a return to Confederate America... nothing less.

It angers me that people use the name "Christianity" to advance this regressive political agenda.

I sympathise with your anger eBrown, but think it misguided to stereotype a very large group of the American public according to the words and actions of what is actually a very small group.

e-Brown
e-Brown, Kudos, great points well stated.

Salude, BBB

Intolerance has all kinds of faces.

Foxfyre,

I am not sure you are hearing what I am saying.

My anger (and I think the anger being expressed by others on this thread) is that American "Christianity" is having an big effect on our political climate. If this is a very small group... it is having a big effect and the remaining large group is decidedly silent.

This is a democracy and I accept the right of people I despise to exercise their voice in our society and our government. I will not complain about the political process or the right of even a president to express his religious beliefs (as misguided and wrong as their are)

However conversely I have the right to be very angry at the fact the political ideaology called "Christianity" is hurting the poor, stopping civil rights, providing cover for our misdeeds in Guantanamo and supporting and prolonging an injust war.

There is a lot of deep-seated anger against Christianity now that is fully justified. You are hearing some of it here.

I believe a backlash against evangelical Christianity (perhaps we can label it extremism or something) will continue to grow.

This anger and the resulting backlash is a valid part of the political process... and I hope it grows quickly... unless of course some part of the large group of Christians who you say don't support the politics of the far right find a voice. I am not hearing it-- and I am listening.