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Thu 23 Jun, 2005 08:13 am
Only 'innappropriate'? Read on.
Air Force Academy Staff Found Promoting Religion
WASHINGTON, June 22 - An Air Force panel sent to investigate the religious climate at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs found evidence that officers and faculty members periodically used their positions to promote their Christian beliefs and failed to accommodate the religious needs of non-Christian cadets, its leader said Wednesday
But the panel said it had found no "overt religious discrimination" - only "insensitivity" - and praised the academy leadership for working aggressively to confront religious problems in the last two years.
Lt. Gen. Roger A. Brady of the Air Force, who led the 16-member group, said in a news conference at the Pentagon that the academy and the Air Force as a whole were struggling to define the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable religious expression in a government institution, a reflection, he said, of a debate under way across the country.
"We believe that people were doing things that I think were inappropriate," General Brady said. "They had the best intentions toward the cadets. I think in some cases they were wrong."
He said his panel had referred seven cases of questionable behavior to the Air Force for further investigation but declined to elaborate.
Among the incidents highlighted in the report were fliers that advertised a screening of "The Passion of the Christ" at every seat in the dining hall, more than 250 people at the academy signing an annual Christmas message in the base newspaper that said that "Jesus Christ is the only real hope for the world" and an atheist student who was forbidden to organize a club for "Freethinkers."
The academy has 19 clubs for religious groups. Many of the clubs and educational programs are led by outsiders, some affiliated with ministries in Colorado Springs, the headquarters for many evangelical Christian organizations. The report recommended that the academy supervise those programs more closely because of complaints that some guest speakers had violated Air Force standards of religious respect.
The group found that several incidents widely covered by news organizations were overblown. The report said a chaplain who reportedly exhorted cadets in a worship service to tell their classmates to accept Christ or "burn in hell" was merely using language "not uncommon" for his Pentecostal denomination.
The academy is a highly selective institution that grooms 18- to 22-year-old cadets for careers as Air Force officers. The report states that of the 4,400 cadets surveyed last year, 85 percent were Christian, 2 percent were atheists , 1.5 percent were Jewish, 0.3 percent were Hindu, 0.4 percent were Muslim, and 9.3 percent gave no preference or identified themselves as "other."
The acting secretary of the Air Force, Michael L. Dominguez, appointed the panel on May 2 after more than a year of complaints about religious coercion.
The complaints culminated with a report sent to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld by Americans United for the Separation of Church and State that documented accusations of coercion.
A chaplain at the academy, Capt. Melinda Morton, made public last month accusations that the religious problem at the academy was "pervasive."
Captain Morton had been on a team asked to draw up a program to promote religious tolerance. On Tuesday, she resigned from the Air Force saying that she did not believe her superiors genuinely wanted her to stay on to help resolve the problem.
The academy superintendent, Lt. Gen. John Rosa, speaking to reporters in Colorado Springs, compared the struggles over religion at the institution with an airplane crash.
"When you go back, everything becomes very obvious," General Rosa said. "But while you are flying the airplane, the kind of things that lead up to the accident are not very obvious."
General Rosa, who will leave this year to head the Citadel, the military college in Charleston, S.C., said the most recent cadet survey indicated that 92 percent of Christian cadets believed that the religious climate on the campus was acceptable, with 50 percent of non-Christians agreeing.
The commandant of cadets, Brig. Gen. Johnny A. Weida, came in for particular scrutiny by panel. He sent an academywide e-mail message to announce the National Day of Prayer, instructed cadets that they were "accountable to their God" and invented a call-and-response chant with the cadets that went, "Jesus ... Rocks."
An inspector general's report attached to the task force findings indicated that General Weida's case was among the seven referred to the Air Force command. The inspector general found no wrongdoing or misconduct by General Weida on six points. But it said that one problem, "the proselytization of non-Christian cadets," continued to be investigated.
General Weida issued a statement on Wednesday saying the academy had progressed in improving cadet life.
"If I could do the last two years over again with the benefit of hindsight," he said, "there are some things I would do differently."
The longtime head football coach, Fisher DeBerry, had until Wednesday responded defiantly in public to warnings from Air Force commanders that he had gone too far in linking his team to his Christian beliefs, praying with them in the locker room to the "Master Coach," and posting a banner saying "Team Jesus."
On Wednesday, he issued a statement saying that those actions had "crossed the line of acceptable practices."
Among the recommendations are that commanders should schedule operations with an eye to accommodating diverse religious holidays and rituals and develop curriculum to increase awareness and respect of different religious beliefs.
General Brady said the recommendations should apply to the entire Air Force, because many military installations quite likely had similar problems.
The reaction to the report was mixed.
"This is a decent start on a problem that must be remedied," Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said. "The good news is that the report makes it clear to anyone who reads it that this is a real problem, not some imagined witch hunt."
Representative Steve Israel, a New York Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, said he wanted President Bush to create a commission on religion in the military.
"They go to excruciating pains to attempt to acknowledge a problem, but not acknowledge it too much," Mr. Israel said of the task force. "Is it a whitewash? No. But it does resemble milquetoast."
Focus on the Family, an evangelical ministry in Colorado Springs that had called criticism of the academy unjustified, said in a statement, "We fervently hope that this ridiculous bias of a few against the religion of a majority - Christianity - will now cease."
Can't link the Original - but it is from the New York Times today.
the fundis are completely out of control.
i've really had enough of their jive. no problem at all with them practicing their religion in their personal lives or in their churches, but i for one want their "faith" out of my government and anything else i have to pay for.
saying so is not an attack on their beliefs. it is a response to their over arching attack on mine.
gee, haven't we learned yet that religious zealotry and airplanes really don't mix well?
Wow - ^^^ THAT was funny.
BTW Fixed my typo in the title. oops...
TF
DontTreadOnMe wrote:the fundis are completely out of control.
i've really had enough of their jive. no problem at all with them practicing their religion in their personal lives or in their churches, but i for one want their "faith" out of my government and anything else i have to pay for.
saying so is not an attack on their beliefs. it is a response to their over arching attack on mine.
How has there been an attack on your beliefs?
As far as I know the only people under attack for religion are Christians and that is by people such as yourself and the ACLU.
Baldimo wrote:DontTreadOnMe wrote:the fundis are completely out of control.
i've really had enough of their jive. no problem at all with them practicing their religion in their personal lives or in their churches, but i for one want their "faith" out of my government and anything else i have to pay for.
saying so is not an attack on their beliefs. it is a response to their over arching attack on mine.
How has there been an attack on your beliefs?
As far as I know the only people under attack for religion are Christians and that is by people such as yourself and the ACLU.
And when you don't know very far, Baldimo, you should refrain from merely regurgitating talking points. It's people like you who have contributed greatly to the free flow of lies.
Seeking to uphold the law is not an attack on anyone's religion.
Governments should not provide financial support for established religions or for establishing religions. Government officials should not use their positions of power to proselytize. That is a harassment that no one should have to bear and no higher offical should tolerate.
Religion is something for an individual to exercise on their own or with like minded people.
Might I refer you to your own signature line?
"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him."
This goes double for religion. Read, what the evangelicals want;
Quote:Focus on the Family, an evangelical ministry in Colorado Springs that had called criticism of the academy unjustified, said in a statement, "We fervently hope that this ridiculous bias of a few against the religion of a majority - Christianity - will now cease."
They've got it completely ass-backward, but they too rely heavily on talking points that appeal to people of questionable intelligence.
The PROBLEM, which you've seen fit to read right over, [what's new eh?]is this,
Quote:An Air Force panel sent to investigate the religious climate at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs found evidence that officers and faculty members periodically used their positions to promote their Christian beliefs and failed to accommodate the religious needs of non-Christian cadets, its leader said Wednesday
JTT wrote:Baldimo wrote:DontTreadOnMe wrote:the fundis are completely out of control.
i've really had enough of their jive. no problem at all with them practicing their religion in their personal lives or in their churches, but i for one want their "faith" out of my government and anything else i have to pay for.
saying so is not an attack on their beliefs. it is a response to their over arching attack on mine.
How has there been an attack on your beliefs?
As far as I know the only people under attack for religion are Christians and that is by people such as yourself and the ACLU.
And when you don't know very far, Baldimo, you should refrain from merely regurgitating talking points. It's people like you who have contributed greatly to the free flow of lies.
Seeking to uphold the law is not an attack on anyone's religion.
Governments should not provide financial support for established religions or for establishing religions. Government officials should not use their positions of power to proselytize. That is a harassment that no one should have to bear and no higher offical should tolerate.
Religion is something for an individual to exercise on their own or with like minded people.
Might I refer you to your own signature line?
"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him."
This goes double for religion. Read, what the evangelicals want;
Quote:Focus on the Family, an evangelical ministry in Colorado Springs that had called criticism of the academy unjustified, said in a statement, "We fervently hope that this ridiculous bias of a few against the religion of a majority - Christianity - will now cease."
They've got it completely ass-backward, but they too rely heavily on talking points that appeal to people of questionable intelligence.
The PROBLEM, which you've seen fit to read right over, [what's new eh?]is this,
Quote:An Air Force panel sent to investigate the religious climate at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs found evidence that officers and faculty members periodically used their positions to promote their Christian beliefs and failed to accommodate the religious needs of non-Christian cadets, its leader said Wednesday
Should we outlaw all military chaplains?
After all,they are being paid for and sponsored by the govt.
Should we outlaw both houses of Congress having their own OFFICIAL chaplains and the fact that they open EVERY session with a prayer?
Should we outlaw the words "in god we trust" as the motto of the US and eliminate it from all currency?
Should we outlaw the president,EVERY president,from ending every speech with the words "God bless America"?
Using your words..." but i for one want their "faith" out of my government and anything else i have to pay for",exactly how far do you want to take your view?
I get your drift, but everyone, who's anyone knows Jim Boeheim is the real deal and Syracuse Orange is the only true team.
You and I don't agree on much, McG, but I am a fan of the Orange. (I used to live in Upstate NY and retain a loyalty to Syracuse, near to where I went to college...)
Jim Boeheim rules!
McGentrix wrote:I get your drift, but everyone, who's anyone knows Jim Boeheim is the real deal and Syracuse Orange is the only true team.
<
sputtter. sputtteeerrrr. sputter!>
you're killin' me, bro...
kuvasz wrote:gee, haven't we learned yet that religious zealotry and airplanes really don't mix well?
That was awfully cute, kuv.
DTOM,McG,
Sorry to both of you,but I'm an Aztec fan,now and forever.
There are no other teams in college sports.
Its the Aztecs and the Bruins of UCLA.
No other teams count...
DTOM,
Its not to bad here.
Of course,I still haven't gotten used to the humidity here.
I am from your current stomping grounds,San Diego to be exact.
Anyway,back to the subject we were discussing.
What I was trying to show was that to demand that the govt stop promoting,endorsing,or sponsoring religion is impossible.
There is religion intertwined into every facet of the Govt.
Besides the examples I gave,the USSC has the 10 commandments posted in their court.
IMHO,its rather hypocritical of them to claim that there is this mythical separation,yet they refuse to recognize it in their own courtroom.
With as much as religion is intertwined into our daily life,I don't believe its possible or logical to demand that it be excised from all govt functions or organizations.
mysteryman wrote:DTOM,
Its not to bad here.
Of course,I still haven't gotten used to the humidity here.
I am from your current stomping grounds,San Diego to be exact.
it'll probably take a while for you to get used to the mugginess. we lived not too far from the river. man, it was like taking one long steam bath. it's just about the only thing i don't miss about the commonwealth.
hah. the first house i lived in out here was right across the street from nas miramar. sometimes ya thought those rocket jockeys were gonna come right through the living room. zzzooooooooommmmmmm!
okay, so i guess we're in understanding here.
it's not really that i dislike the simple religious presence such as nativity scenes and such. that doesn't bother me.
what does get me is the incessant nattering about values etc. why should non-christians or non-evangelicals have to stand there and be told that they have no character or they don't love and raise their children right.
an awful lot of people do just fine in the morals and ethics department without consulting the bible or koran over every detail of their life.
the worst bit is being told that you are going to hell. i don't believe in hell (although i've had a couple of jobs that fit the description), so that in itself i blow off easily. it's the intent of the words that i find really offensive.
most christians that i know understand about all of this and we get along just great.
but the falwells, robertsons, dobsons and randall terrys are really over the edge. what they want to achieve is antithesis to america. if we step back and look at what they are up to, it really is striking how similar their rhetoric is to the fundimental extremist mullahs.
i agree that it's pert near impossible to remove every single shread of religion from our government.
but we certainly keep watch that inappropriate use is not made of displays.
we can make sure that our rights and liberties are not curtailed by another person's religion. btw, i don't think that it is anyone's right to insist that their religious book replace the constitution or the books of law. similarly, if you want to pray at the beginning of the day at school. go ahead, it wont's bother me. just don't insist i join in. when i was in high school up in luavull, we had a "minute of silent meditation" in home room. it worked out great for everybody.
it is just really offensive to me, and others, to have people of a given religion pushing it on you and continuously badgering the elected officials with their narrow agendas.
that's exactly the kind of stuff america was intended to be free of. and having go on and on isn't doing anything good for the country.
awright then. keep cool. keep a lot of iced tea around and you'll be alright. :wink:
JTT wrote:Baldimo wrote:DontTreadOnMe wrote:the fundis are completely out of control.
i've really had enough of their jive. no problem at all with them practicing their religion in their personal lives or in their churches, but i for one want their "faith" out of my government and anything else i have to pay for.
saying so is not an attack on their beliefs. it is a response to their over arching attack on mine.
How has there been an attack on your beliefs?
As far as I know the only people under attack for religion are Christians and that is by people such as yourself and the ACLU.
And when you don't know very far, Baldimo, you should refrain from merely regurgitating talking points. It's people like you who have contributed greatly to the free flow of lies.
Seeking to uphold the law is not an attack on anyone's religion.
Governments should not provide financial support for established religions or for establishing religions. Government officials should not use their positions of power to proselytize. That is a harassment that no one should have to bear and no higher offical should tolerate.
Religion is something for an individual to exercise on their own or with like minded people.
Might I refer you to your own signature line?
"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him."
This goes double for religion. Read, what the evangelicals want;
Quote:Focus on the Family, an evangelical ministry in Colorado Springs that had called criticism of the academy unjustified, said in a statement, "We fervently hope that this ridiculous bias of a few against the religion of a majority - Christianity - will now cease."
They've got it completely ass-backward, but they too rely heavily on talking points that appeal to people of questionable intelligence.
The PROBLEM, which you've seen fit to read right over, [what's new eh?]is this,
Quote:An Air Force panel sent to investigate the religious climate at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs found evidence that officers and faculty members periodically used their positions to promote their Christian beliefs and failed to accommodate the religious needs of non-Christian cadets, its leader said Wednesday
I would really like to know how religion is being forced on you? I haven't seen it and I haven't experienced it either. Not being a Christian myself I would notice when it was forced on me. The only time I think it is trying to be forced is when my wife asks me to go to church on Sundays.
Please explain and try and leave the anti-religion rhetoric at the door. No talking points from the anti-Christian groups. I would like to hear a personal experience of the govt forcing religion on you.
Baldimo wrote:
I would really like to know how religion is being forced on you? I haven't seen it and I haven't experienced it either. Not being a Christian myself I would notice when it was forced on me. The only time I think it is trying to be forced is when my wife asks me to go to church on Sundays.
Please explain and try and leave the anti-religion rhetoric at the door. No talking points from the anti-Christian groups. I would like to hear a personal experience of the govt forcing religion on you.
Here's a pretty good example, Baldimo.
JTT wrote:Baldimo wrote:
I would really like to know how religion is being forced on you? I haven't seen it and I haven't experienced it either. Not being a Christian myself I would notice when it was forced on me. The only time I think it is trying to be forced is when my wife asks me to go to church on Sundays.
Please explain and try and leave the anti-religion rhetoric at the door. No talking points from the anti-Christian groups. I would like to hear a personal experience of the govt forcing religion on you.
Here's a pretty good example, Baldimo.
How is this tied to religion? This has been going on since 1998 so there has been more then just Bush and his people standing against it. Try a little bit harder next time.
How has religion been forced down your throat? Please give me a personal example.
The notion that Christians are an oppressed group in this country amuses me. We've got a president who says that Christ is his favorite philosopher and makes it clear that he bases his world view on an interpretation of what Christianity is all about. Christians take over school boards (e.g., in Kansas) and require the teaching of "intelligent design" in schools. Lobbying groups that claim to represent Christians make noise about what kind of conservative should be in the Supreme Court. And so on.
Still, there's whining about how Christians are being treated unfairly. By who? The ACLU?
Christian symbols around the US are being forced down by the ACLU, People for the American way of life, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and most socialist/communist front groups (read peace groups such as ANSWER and the like).
You can't have a cross on a hill that has been there for 50 or more years but the people of Iowa can pay for a
Muslim Summer Camp and the ACLU says nothing, but they will attack the Boy Scouts as a religious group and get them removed from parks and any other form of public land. Part of the California school system wanted to force students to study Islam to the point where they were going to have to take a Muslim name pray to Mecca and even name a Jihad all during class time. No word from the ACLU or other anti-Christian groups. I would call this an attack on Christianity.
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