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dying of the light?

 
 
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 12:31 pm
why is the word of used sometimes instead of from? like "dying of the light" "dying of hunger" why not "dying from the light" or "dying from hunger"?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,547 • Replies: 21
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 12:50 pm
"Dying of the light" refers to the light dying. If you used "dying from the light", it would imply that someone/something is dying because of the light, rather than the light itself dying.
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alphaomega
 
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Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 12:53 pm
no you're wrong then it would be "the dying of the light" instead of an inplyed "you're" dying of the light
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Bella Dea
 
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Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 12:54 pm
What?
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 12:55 pm
Ok...

The dying of the light - The light is dying

Dying of light - Someone/something is dying from light.

Dying from light - Someone/something is dying from light.

The dying of the hunger - The hunger is dying

Dying of hunger - Someone/something is dying from hunger.

Dying from hunger - Someone/something is dying from hunger.

In some cases, you can use both "of" or " from".

Understand?
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alphaomega
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 12:57 pm
what don't you understand?
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Bella Dea
 
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Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 12:59 pm
I'd ask you the same thing.
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alphaomega
 
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Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:10 pm
so when would you use "of" instead of "from"
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Bella Dea
 
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Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:11 pm
I just gave you examples.
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alphaomega
 
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Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:12 pm
you said they were interchangeable but when is it more appropriate to use one over the other
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:20 pm
When you want to say someone is dying FROM something you say "dying from light/hunger" OR "dying from the light/hunger" OR "dying of light hunger".

When you want to say something is dying you say "the dying of the light/hunger" .

You can use "from" or "of" interchangablly when implying someone/something is dying of something else.
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:22 pm
substitute the word diminish for dying if the light isn't killing you.

my face hurts.

hurts?, it's killing me.



I don't know what I'm saying - I'm not responsible for my actions today. But JUST for today.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 02:34 pm
I find this to be one of the oddest and silliest exchanges i've ever read here.

The dying of the light is in fact a quotation from Dylan Thomas' poem, Do not go gentle into that good night. In that context, the dying of the light means the death of a person.

To assume that there is always logic to the constructions of the English language is to beg for confusion.
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 02:41 pm
Hee! Hee! I was waiting for Setanta to point that out.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 02:42 pm
I wasn't sure if they were looking for a metaphorical explaination or not. If so, should have asked for one.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 02:43 pm
But thanks for pointing out my silliness.
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 03:38 pm
Bella, no one was calling you silly. Here's Thomas' entire poem:

DO NOT GO GENTLE INTO THAT GOOD NIGHT


Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Valpower
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 04:23 pm
I'll allow for the possibility that Alphaomega is a non-native speaker and isn't familiar with more polite ways of registering disagreement ("Thank you for your reply, but that seems wrong...), but "no you're wrong", along with the phrase's missing context, certainly sent this thread awry. Thank you Setanta for clearing up the intended meaning of the phrase.

I still think there is an unanswered part of this question relating to the interchangeablity of "dying of" and "dying from" where the prepositional object refers to a cause of death and not to that which is dying: When is more appropriate to use one or the other?

Indirect answer via definition of of in OED:
Quote:
offofof to render Latin ab, de, or ex, in constructions where non-literary discourse would not have used it. Of greater significance was its employment from the 11th cent. as the equivalent of French de, itself of composite origin, since it not merely represented Latin de in its various prepositional uses, but had come to be the substitute in French for the Latin genitive case. Whether of might have come independently in English to be a substitute for the genitive has been much debated. In the expression of ethnic or national origin, we find of and the genitive to some extent interchangeable already in early Old English, cf. the following:
eOE tr. Bede Eccl. Hist. (Tanner) III. xiv. 210 Wæs es wer..of æm æelastan cynne Scotta [L. de nobilissimo genere Scottorum]. eOE tr. Bede Eccl. Hist. (Tanner) III. xv. 222 Se nyhsta wæs Scyttisces cynnes [L. natione Scottus]. eOE tr. Bede Eccl. Hist. (Tanner) III. xv. 222 Se wæs eac Scotta cynnes [L. de natione Scottorum].This may well have extended in time to other uses; but the influence of French de was probably a major factor in the replacement of the Old English genitive after adjectives, verbs, and even nouns by the of construction in early Middle English. The evidence, however, also suggests that an internal change in English, the loss of inflection in the definite article and strong adjective (by the end of the 13th cent. at the latest), triggered the advance in the use of the of construction as a periphrastic genitive. Beside this (a far-reaching fact in the functional history of of) the same influence is also manifest in numerous phraseological uses, and esp. in the use of of as the equivalent of French de, in the construction of many verbs and adjectives. Many of these can be clearly distinguished; but, in other cases, the uses derived from French de have so blended with those derived from Old English of, giving rise again to later uses related to both, that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to separate the two streams, with their many ramifications. The present entry seeks to exhibit the main uses of the preposition, and to show generally how far back each of these is exemplified. It has not been attempted to classify or even mention all the verbs and adjectives which are or have been construed with of; examples occur under the chief senses and uses, but the construction of any individual verb or adjective is dealt with under that word itself, where also it is shown what other prepositions share or have shared the same function with of.


Common collocations from the OED:
Quote:
To die of a malady, hunger, old age, or the like; by violence, the sword, his own hand; from a wound, inattention, etc.; through neglect; on or upon the cross, the scaffold, at the stake, in battle; for a cause, object, reason, or purpose, for the sake of one; formerly also with a disease, the sword, etc.; on his enemies (i.e. falling dead above them). In earlier use the prepositions were employed less strictly.


I guess the answer is that you will be understood with either and that only a handful of collocations would sound slightly unusual ("dying of stab wounds") to a handful of people. If you MUST have a guideline, it wouldn't hurt to use of for conditions that are like a malady or when dying is meant figuratively ("of embarassment") and from for conditions or actions that have been inflicted upon you by others ("from multiple beatings" or "from gunshot wounds").
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kaladar
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 09:07 am
Setanta wrote:

To assume that there is always logic to the constructions of the English language is to beg for confusion.


there is always confusion in anything challenging. just because it is confusing doesn't mean that you shouldn't pursue the idea further, however, to learn more. at wihch point it becomes not as confusing. maybe he uses "of" cause he doesn't want to put as much emphasis on the cause of the dying thus using a shorter word. using a longer word would draw more attention to that part of the phrase.
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dora17
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 10:10 pm
kaladar wrote:
maybe he uses "of" cause he doesn't want to put as much emphasis on the cause of the dying thus using a shorter word. using a longer word would draw more attention to that part of the phrase.
(emphasis mine)

Thomas wasn't referring to the "cause" of death at all. As has already been pointed out, the line "the dying of the light" refers to dying (to vision failing as one dies), but not to light as a cause of someone's death.
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