True Religion

@fresco,

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I know all about the 'golden age' of Islamic science. The whole point is that those times have passed (and why)!

Simple answer is that this life is a test and Allah tests us by giving and taking away. I also answered to your post regarding noble prize and in it I mentioned that economic condition of Muslims today is one of the leading factor for less advancement in scientific research.

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Even your cited embryologist was a Christian who swapped 'prophets' later in life.
If this is the level of 'debate' you employ, how do think anybody will take you seriously ?

Truth remain absolute and when it is evident one should not shy away from accepting it. Dr. Keith Moore did not swap prophets. Islam believes in Jesus PBUH as well. He only accepted Muhammad PBUH as the final prophet and by accepting Islam, he agreed to the message of all previous prophets as well.

I have only offered 5 facts so far and I will continue to post more. It is up to you to stick around and ignore my posts. I am honestly presenting what I know and is not forcing anyone to believe in it. Do your independent research nd believe in whatever you believe in with 100% conviction.

2 Replies

@HabibUrrehman,

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Your approach has clearly shown that you just skim over the post and quickly jump to conclusions to support your own biases.

Was I wrong to believe that the guidance your referred to in the quote below, referred to Mohammed?

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If we were to say that no religion in the world today is correct, then this would entail believing that God is unjust because He left us to wander about on earth in sin and transgression without showing us the right way to do things, and this is impossible for a Just God. Therefore the only logical conclusion is that there is One True Religion, which contains guidance in all spheres of life, religious, moral, societal, and individual.

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If only you could put aside your biases

Care to articulate which biases you are referring to? I do hope this is not a reflex accusation.

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You also mentioned that in the past you have read portions of Quran and you claim to know what Islam teaches but you did not know this fundamental message that in Islam Prophet Muhammad PBUH is claimed to be the last prophet.

I'm aware of that. Where do you get the impression that I am not?

In relation to Islam having been the religion through the ages - I have already addressed that. However, you will believe what you want to believe.

1 Reply

@HabibUrrehman,

FACT # 6 –PROPHECY IN QURAN ABOUT PRESERVING THE BODY OF PHARAOH IN THE TIME OF PROPHET MOSES (PBUH):

This time I decided to choose an evidence which is a mix of historical fact and prophecy which is verified about 5 decades ago by means of medical and forensic science.

Let me first quote few verses from Quran:

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We (Allah) rehearse unto thee a portion of the story of Moses and Pharaoh with truth, for the benefit of a people who would believe. (Al Quran 28:04)

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We sent Moses with Our Signs to Pharaoh and his chiefs, but they unjustly rejected them. Behold, then, what was the end of those who created disorder! (Al Quran 7:104)

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This day shall We save you (O Pharaoh) in your body, that you may be a Sign to those who come after you! But indeed, many among mankind are neglectful of Our Signs. (Al Quran 10:93)

The Old Testament also gives the account of Pharaoh as follows:

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And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. (Exodus 14:28)

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For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the Children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea. (Exodus 15:19)

Unlike the Holy Quran, in this account of the Old Testament, there is neither any clue of the last moments of Pharaoh nor of the destiny and fate of his mummy in years to come. All it mentions is that all of them drowned. Whereas Quran has prophesied that the body of Pharaoh will be preserved as a sign for generations to come.

At the time of Quran’s revelation, however, absolutely nothing was known about the fact that bodies of Pharaohs were preserved in their tombs and it was not until the end of the 19th century that they were discovered there.

Historians agree that the Pharaoh of Exodus was either the Ramesses II or his son Merneptah. For the purposes of the Quranic prophecy, it does not matter whether Ramesses II or Merneptah was the Pharaoh of Exodus. Since the bodies of both, Ramses II and Merneptah have been found, confirmed medically and displayed for visitation for all mankind in the Cairo Museum; bearing testimony to the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Holy Quran 1500 years ago!

However, I do want to share the research done by a well-known French surgeon and archeologist Dr. Maurice Bucaille in mid-1970’s when the mummies of Ramesses II and his son Merneptah were examined by a team of doctors in Egypt and in France. The forensic evidence showed that Merneptah died of asphyxiation/ due to drowning. Dr. Maurice had no knowledge of Islam or the Holy Quran and its prophecies at that time. Knowing that this is the prophecy of the Holy Quran being fulfilled, drove him to learn Arabic to read and understand the Holy Quran himself. He ultimately became a Muslim.

For more details please look at the videos, I have given links below:

https://youtu.be/ZLINW1pldvs
https://youtu.be/iIAGfxg-PUs
I highly recommend watching any of the video in links above or may be watch both. Each video is roughly an hour long.

If you don't have enough time then may be watch the two videos above. Each video in link below which is roughly 8-9 minutes long:

https://youtu.be/jg-55VLQw04

1 Reply

@HabibUrrehman,

Your assertion....''I am honestly presenting what I THINK I know'' ....would of course be a more accurate one. Your problem is that 'the majority' you are fond of evoking does not have your conditioned 'thinking'. That conditioning, which is the antithesis of creativity, is obviously one possible explanation for the relatively poor statistical performance of your co-religionists in modern world affairs.

Your 'true religion' may amount to little more than 'an efficient opiate'.

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@vikorr,

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Was I wrong to believe that the guidance your referred to in the quote below, referred to Mohammed?

Yes because I have mentioned very clearly that all prophets came with Divine guidance for a particular time and for a particular nation. Muhammad PBUH was last of the prophets and he came with Divine guidance for entire humanity from his time till the day of judgement.

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I'm aware of that. Where do you get the impression that I am not?

In relation to Islam having been the religion through the ages - I have already addressed that. However, you will believe what you want to believe.

If you knew that then we should not discussing just Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

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Care to articulate which biases you are referring to? I do hope this is not a reflex accusation.

Don't take it personally. We all have our biases. I try my best to stay neutral and I hope the same from every sensible people. May be this is all misunderstanding on my or your or our part which happens when we communicate online without knowing each other.

1 Reply

@HabibUrrehman,

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Yes because I have mentioned very clearly that all prophets came with Divine guidance for a particular time and for a particular nation. Muhammad PBUH was last of the prophets and he came with Divine guidance for entire humanity from his time till the day of judgement.

And yet you referred very clearly to todays Islam as being the only one to be the One True Religion, which contains guidance in all spheres of life, religious, moral, societal, and individual ?

All the other prophets exist in other religions.

So if your quote didn't refer to Mohammed, which prophet or prophets then revealed "guidance in all spheres of life, religious, moral, societal, and individual"? Did such exist prior to him? You obviously believe it did not, or one of the other religions would be the one true religion.

Put another way - try and make your quoted passage work by removing Mohammed from the equation. Would your version of Islam be the one true religion? (your version wouldn't be known, and the totality of what you call guidance in all spheres of life, religious, moral, societal, and individual wouldn't be known).

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If you knew that then we should not discussing just Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

This isn't a logical statement. It is an emotional statement. You believe it to be true. You appear to believe if others know about the concept, then they must believe it to be true. That contains no logic whatsoever - I can know the belief/concept without believing it to be true.

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Don't take it personally. We all have our biases. I try my best to stay neutral and I hope the same from every sensible people. May be this is all misunderstanding on my or your or our part which happens when we communicate online without knowing each other.

I haven't taken it personally. I have asked you to clarify which biases you are referring to, because it appears to me a reflex accusation - something that a persons throws out there to deflect attention. I hope that isn't what you have done, hence my comment that I hope your accusation wasn't a reflex accusation. And critique should always be examined, because there is always the possibility of improving ones logic - but that can't be done if there is no clarity in the critique.

So I would ask you again - please clarify which biases you are referring to.

1 Reply

@HabibUrrehman,

Either you don't have the ability to rise above the tautology that all absolutes are religious, or it is psychologically too dangerous for you to even contemplate it. Your conditioning has effectively killed that ability.
'Truth' is merely a word which implies consensual agreement in particular contexts, and as we all know, you draw your consensus from the context of fellow religionists with the same blinkered conditioning and peer pressure. Your so called 'truth' is no different from that claimed by every religion and every political despot. Your attempts at 'proof' are at best indicative of ignorance of the literature about the use of that word.
Nothing you have said on this thread rises above the childish game of 'I'm right' and 'you're wrong'....as if 'right' and 'wrong' were themselves 'absolutes'.

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@vikorr,

I have very clearly said the following in my replies to your previous posts.

- Allah sent guidance through His prophets throughout in human history.

- Previous revelations were never meant to be for all time and for all humanity, that why we see new prophets kept coming with new messages.

Here I also want to quote some verses from Bible and Quran to make it clear that Jesus PBUH did not come for gentiles (non Jews). He was a prophet who came just for Jews and he practiced Jewish law strictly.

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I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel [Matthew 15:24]

Professor Stanley E. Porter, a specialist in New Testament studies, states in his book that Jesus “looked to the house of Israel alone”, and that “the theocracy he proclaimed had nothing to do with non-Israelites at all.”

Quran confirm this narrative:

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He will teach him [Jesus] the Scripture and wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel, He will send him as a messenger to the Children of Israel... [Quran 3:48-49].

- The previous revelations were only for a particular nation and a particular time.

- The only revelation Allah promised to preserve is Quran because after Prophet Muhammad PBUH no other prophet is going to come and in Allah's wisdom the guidance provided through Quran is enough for all times and all nations until the day of Judgement.

- If I was to be born at the time of Moses PBUH, I would have followed his message and if I was to be born after Jesus PBUH and before Muhammad PBUH, I would have followed the message of Jesus PBUH. But since you and I are born after the coming of Prophet Muhammad PBUH, the only guidance left for us to follow is Quran.

- Other religions found today, such as Christianity and Judaism, are the remnants of the religion brought by the prophets in their time, which was Islam. However, over time, they have been altered and lost, and what is left today of these religions is a mix of truth and falsehood. The only religion which has been preserved and preaches the same message brought by all prophets is the religion of Islam, the one true religion, which rules all sphere’s of humans’ lives, religious, political, societal, and individual, and it is upon all humans to investigate this religion, to ascertain its truth, and to follow it.

Hope this helps to understand what I have been trying to say. If you want to take any other meanings out of this then that's up to you and I am not going to repeat myself. I made a claim and I am providing evidences to support my claim. You don't have to accept what I am proclaiming but you can examine the evidences I am providing to see if those support my claim or not.

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@HabibUrrehman,

I know what you are trying to say. You are on a futile quest to convince other religionists that your version is superior.
Any fool can cherry pick the literature for 'evidence' supporting their own position. Your understanding of 'evidence' is as poor as your understanding of 'truth' and 'facts'.

There's an old cartoon of a man wandering round an English wood carrying an elephant gun. When asked 'why ?' he replies 'to keep elephants away'. And when the questioner asks 'what elephants ?', he replies 'See ! It works!'

That is about the level you are operating on.

Now, if an Islamaphobe selected what was a 'fact' for him, that 'Mohammed was a pedophile,' and supported it with references to the literature, can you not see that all religious 'facts' and 'truths' are merely constructions involving self interest ?

1 Reply

@fresco,

Do you have any objection on the evidences I put forth so far? Prove that those evidences are wrong. My first focus is to prove Quran is the word of God and I will continue providing more evidences. You are free to accept those or reject those, no one is forcing you.

Regarding the questions which you have about Prophet Muhammad PBUH, I appreciate that you asked those questions. It will help me remove doubts which you have about Islam. Please create a separate thread and I will answer those. I just want to keep posts in this thread relevant to my topic.

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@HabibUrrehman,

You are asking the wrong person because the phrase 'word of God' is meaningless to atheists. You might as well argue about what Goldilocks said to the bears!
My objection is not about the contents of your arguments, but the form of them, like bias, which has already been raised by your religious interlocuter. But theological arguments aside, the status of Islam in the eyes of others will not be judged by rhetorical detail, but by its effects on humanity in general as a beneficial or pernicious social force. In that respect your intention remains futile.

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@fresco,

How many of them have actually interacted with Muslims? How many of them have visited the mosques? If they never read Quran at their own, never interacted with Muslims and never visited the mosques, how can they know what Muslims believe and practice? Are we supposed to judge Islam based on what media tells us and shows us?

My goal is to share my experience with Islam and Muslims. I am an American who accepted Islam and used to think like many on this forum think. Reality is quite different. If you think Taliban, Al Qaida and ISIS represent Islam then you are dead wrong. These groups are created by us to promote our own agenda. Muslims are the one who actually suffered a lot due to these groups but sadly our media blames this on Muslims and Islam. Go visit some Muslim countries and see with your own eyes that Muslims are very loving and peaceful people.

I am doing all this because I care for you and others on this forum. You guys are my brothers and sisters in humanity. I wandered in search of truth for many years. Read books of several religions and Quran was the last one for me to consider. No one is the West wants to accept Islam and same was the case with me. No one forced Islam on me, I read Quran at my own and I know I have found the truth. It will be selfish for me to keep that jewel for myself alone. I want to share the beauty of Islam and I know I am not perfect. My approach may not be the best but all I want is to share my experience with people who never looked into Islam because to them Islam is a religion who creates terrorists and have no positive contribution the world's peace.

Do I expect everyone to take me seriously? No.
Do I hope that someone may be guided and saved. Yes and that hope gives me the passion to share my thought on this forum.
Will I get any benefit by sharing my thoughts? No material gains.

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My objection is not about the contents of your arguments, but the form of them, like bias, which has already been raised by your religious interlocuter.

I agree that we all have our biases and that's how we generally make decisions in our lives and that's how we pick and choose our arguments. You have your bias that God does not exist and that how you look at everything. That's why it is important to keep our biased on the side when searching for God or a higher being or whatever you call it.

I am stating the scientific facts, prophecies and historical facts which are established and universally accepted long after the revelation of Quran. I am not just providing my own so called biased opinion but I am also sharing stories that how these facts which were mentioned in Quran long before they were accepted as universal facts have convinced some Christian intellectuals in the West to look into Quran deeply. Likes of Dr. Keith Moore and Maurice Bucaille spent their lives in learning Arabic and doing deep research on Quranic claims before they accepted Islam. We can rely on our intelligence alone or we can rely on our intelligence as well as experience of others to find the truth. I don't know how this is a biased opinion when these facts are mentioned in Quran but not in any other religious book. Muslims did not ask scientists to agree on the facts mentioned in Quran, neither did we ask historian to distort historical facts to conform with Quran. Muslim have no authority to turn the prophecies in Quran and hadith as a fact or do you think Muslims conspire everything to make them comply with Quran?

If these evidences are not acceptable then please let me know what proof would you like to see? What would you consider as a reliable proof?

1 Reply

@HabibUrrehman,

My last point on this thread.

I have NO bias on the 'existence of God' because as I have already said regarding concepts 'existence=utility'. i.e the concept of 'God' is useless to a 'me' but not to a 'you' And concepts are all we've got as 'thinkers' using words whether those concepts are 'rocks' 'electrons' or 'gods'. Anything you cite as 'evidence' stands or falls on its relationship to the continued utility of a concept for you. Words do not reflect 'reality'...they construct 'reality'. And social reality is constructed by mutual agreement about usage.

Now to understand what I have said would require you to throw aside the protective buoyancy aid of 'conditioned faith' and to swim freely by actually noticing what 'thinking' is all about. It takes both courage and honesty, because one of those concepts is 'self' which contrary to expectation, turns out to be elusive and inconsistent.

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@HabibUrrehman,

FACT # 7 –EMBRYOLOGY: SEX/GENDER DETERMINATION

In 335 B.C.E., Aristotle proposed that the heat of the male partner during intercourse determined sex. If the male's heat could overwhelm the female's coldness, then a male child would form. In contrast, if the female's coldness was too strong (or the male's heat too weak), a female child would form.
Environmental theories of sex determination, such as Aristotle's, were popular until about 1900, when sex chromosomes were discovered.

Now we know that the sex of a fetus is determined by the nature of the sperm and not the ovum. The sex of the child, whether female or male, depends on whether the 23rd pair of chromosomes is XX or XY respectively. Primarily sex determination occurs at fertilization and depends upon the type of sex chromosome in the sperm that fertilizes an ovum. If it is an ‘X’ bearing sperm that fertilizes the ovum, the fetus is a female and if it is a ‘Y’ bearing sperm then the fetus is a male.

Quran states this fact more than 1400 years ago. Let's look at some of the verses in Quran:

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That He did create in pairs – male and female, from a seed when lodged (In its place).[Al-Quran 53:45-46]

The Arabic word NUTFAH means a minute quantity of liquid and TUMNÂ means ejaculated or planted. Therefore NUTFAH specifically refers to sperm because it is ejaculated.

The Quran says:

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Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (In lowly form)? Then did he become a clinging clot; Then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion. And of him He made two sexes, male and female.[Al-Quran 75:37-39]

Here again it is mentioned that a small quantity (drop) of sperm (indicated by the word NUTFATAN MIN MANIYYIN) which comes from the man is responsible for the sex of the fetus.

Both the Quran and Science hold that it is the male fluid that is responsible for the sex of the child!

While writing this post, I stumbled upon the website below and thought it is worth sharing for those who may be interested in knowing how gender is determined in other species.

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/genetic-mechanisms-of-sex-determination-314/

To be continued...

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@HabibUrrehman,

HabibUrrehman wrote:

Quote:
Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (In lowly form)? Then did he become a clinging clot; Then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion. And of him He made two sexes, male and female.[Al-Quran 75:37-39]

Again that's open to interpretation. It was long believed that all the baby came from the man, that the woman was just the garden it grew in.

This belief was so pervasive that when the first microscopes were invented one scientist looking at horse sperm wrote how he saw miniature horses swimming across the slide.

The truth is, life does not begin with sperm, who we are starts with a fertilised egg. We were never a drop of sperm, part of us was, but the other part wasn't. Our individual story starts with the fertilised egg. We are the union of male and female, that's where we begin.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

My point in last post was only about gender determination. I will get to human creation and Quran has very detailed description on embryology.

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Religion of Nobel Prize winners

NB. World theistic religion statistics.
Christian 32.5% Islam 21.5% Judaism o.4 %

That's a very blunt instrument with which to judge a religion. Who decides Nobel prizes? How White are the people who make the decision.

It all sounds a bit neo colonial, Hindus are barely represented either.

I wonder what the breakdown by race or gender would be. Women are woefully represented in the science Nobels.

That doesn't make it women's fault.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

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As of 2019, Nobel Prizes have been awarded to 866 men, 53 women (Marie Curie won it twice), and 24 unique organizations.[1]

The distribution of female Nobel Laureates is as follows:[2][3]

seventeen women have won the Nobel Peace Prize,
fifteen have won the Nobel Prize in Literature,
twelve have won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine,
five have won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry,
three have won the Nobel Prize in Physics,
and two, Elinor Ostrom and Esther Duflo, have won the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_Nobel_laureates

Only 53 prizes from 50% of the population.

The thing is nobody would seriously use those figures to malign women's contribution, clearly there's something flawed in the process.

Make it about religion, and suddenly everything is OK.

1 Reply

@HabibUrrehman,

For ages you avoided posting in context of the original contested 'logic' you used, despite claims of assessing logic dispassionately. You kept providing what you called 'explanation'...removed from context of the contested logic you used. Like a sensible conversation can be had that way.

When eventually asked directly if your original 'logic' referred to Mohammed (in relation to the guidance quoted in your original 'logic'), you replied 'no it does not'

When pointed out that without Mohammed, one Judaism and/or Christianity would be left, you ignore this, calling the others prophets Islamic, ignoring that their teachings lead to different religions different from your Islam, ignoring that those other religions do not call themselves Islam, ignoring that your belief in such would not exist without Mohammed, and ignoring that they (Christianity & Judaism) would not have what you claim to be the complete guidance, which was necessary to your original 'logic'.

In the context of that contested quote - you simply ignore that your beliefs and 'logic' as to why your Islam is the one true religion, would not exist without Mohammed, to claim he is not the bedrock one which which your original 'logic' rested (even if others, in your view contributed - your 'logic' does not work without Mohammed)

Your 'answers' to the above is a form of circular thinking that has Mohammed's teachings at its roots, only forming an answer at the most superficial of levels, but apparently claiming profound depth.

-------

And I'm still waiting a response to what specifically is the bias you have twice accused me of now. For a person who claims dispassionate logic and taking responsibility, I am extremely disappointed in your avoidance of the above request. It is a display of a person avoiding logic / personal responsibility for claims they make.

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@izzythepush,

Sorry Izzy but gender is not the point here. The OP makes the general claim for the superiority of the 'truth' and 'guidance' of Islam, presumably in the modern era. Other than trying to compare 'psychological efficacy of alternative rationalities', we can only try to test that claim by general social measures (political, economic,intellectual contributions, etc), no single measure being sufficient alone, but in combination constituting 'evidence'.

1 Reply

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