AWB Ends, Homicide Rate Drops

cjhsa wrote:

When you guys come out and admit you "want to ban all guns", well, you might as well go join Al Queda. You are the enemy of America because you don't respect our constitution.

I want you to shut up, but the 1st amendment protects your right to spew (given you are a citizen).

I guess all those sufferagettes should have joined Al Queda, too. Rolling Eyes

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cjhsa wrote:

"post hoc ergo propter hoc"

Another reason to have an open season on lawyers.

Thanks, cjhsa, this discussion was getting far too rational. I knew you could be depended upon to supply a useful corrective.

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Why post the reference to something only a lawyer would know, or care, anything about? The AWB expires, and lo and behold, not only does violent crime not increase, it actually decreases.

That is what I posted and that's what I'm sticking to. If you want to go off and post gibberish in response that's not my problem.

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cjhsa wrote:

Why post the reference to something only a lawyer would know, or care, anything about?

I not only posted the reference, I posted a link to a site that explained what a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy is. Now, it is quite evident that I didn't post that link for your benefit, cjhsa, but I did post it for the benefit of those who might otherwise be tempted to engage in utterly illogical reasoning, such as the following:

cjhsa wrote:

The AWB expires, and lo and behold, not only does violent crime not increase, it actually decreases.

Remember kids: logic is your friend!

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Fedral wrote:

Intrepid wrote:

Did they have bazooka's on the list? My personal opinion is that all guns should be banned. Or, in keeping with the 2nd amendment or whatever it is, everybody should be allowed to have muzzle loaders like they did when that was written.

Yes, and the First Amendment should only apply to thoughts and writings that were either hand printed or made with a hand typeset printing press.

And free speech should only be allowed within the distance of an unamplified speaking voice.

Um, I take it that you are a card carrying member of the NRA or whatever it is you yanks refer to it? I won't get into a debate on your constitution or the peculiarities of the second amendment. Perhaps you are right. You should send your recommendations to congress for their perusal and consideration.
Cool

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Only someone who wants to spin facts could possibly find that illogical.

Where is the huge crime wave?

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cjhsa wrote:

Why post the reference to something only a lawyer would know, or care, anything about? The AWB expires, and lo and behold, not only does violent crime not increase, it actually decreases.

That is what I posted and that's what I'm sticking to. If you want to go off and post gibberish in response that's not my problem.

What about these stats from the Justice Dept Source ?

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cjhsa wrote:

Only someone who wants to spin facts could possibly find that illogical.

I'm not spinning facts. In fact I'm quite willing to concede (if only for the sake of argument) that the facts stated in the original article are entirely accurate: that crime rates are now lower, after the expiration of the assault weapons ban, than before. But, as Ronald Reagan insightfully commented: "facts are stupid things." Facts, by themselves, tell us little. It is only the connection of those facts in an orderly, logical process that makes them mean anything. And, in this case, you may have the facts right but your logic has more holes in it than a target at a submachine gun shooting range.

cjhsa wrote:

Where is the huge crime wave?

Crime waves are like economic depressions: they tend to have many causes. Ascribing a single cause for a crime wave (or the lack thereof) is both overly reductive and exceedingly simplistic.

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joefromchicago wrote:

Crime waves are like economic depressions: they tend to have many causes. Ascribing a single cause for a crime wave (or the lack thereof) is both overly reductive and exceedingly simplistic.

Which, I believe, was cjhsa's original point. (And I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.) I don't read his comments as offering the data as proof that the end of the ban caused a reduction in crime (or was necessarily related to that reduction in any way), but rather believe that he offered it as proof that the assertion by others that the end of the ban would be the cause of an increase was disproved by the data.

So while you are right that this data doesn't prove that ending the ban reduced crime rates, it is certainly not unreasonable to suggest that it disproves the notion that ending the ban would increase crime rates.

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Intrepid wrote:

What about these stats from the Justice Dept Source ?

What about them? They end in 2002, the AWB didn't expire until last year. ???

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cjhsa wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
What about these stats from the Justice Dept Source ?

What about them? They end in 2002, the AWB didn't expire until last year. ???

Exactly.... They fell even before the ban

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If handguns were banned entirely, I wonder if the number of homicides committed with kitchen knives would go up?

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From what I see, it appears the homicide rate peaked right around 1994, when the AWB was implemented. Most were handgun related, but few handguns fall under the AWB.

Try this: http://www.ont.com/users/kolya/AR15/awc.htm

Even I cannot pass it.

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Ticomaya wrote:

If handguns were banned entirely, I wonder if the number of homicides committed with kitchen knives would go up?

At least the victim would have a chance of seeing the attacker and fighting back Laughing

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You have no idea of my ability to fling sharpened objects.

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Ticomaya wrote:

If handguns were banned entirely, I wonder if the number of homicides committed with kitchen knives would go up?

That's precisely what I thought when I looked at the justice department stats; or in broader terms, the fact that a given homicide was committed with a gun does not prove that the same homicide would not have occurred in the absence of said gun.

Am I more likely to commit murder if I'm allowed to possess a gun? Maybe...

Am I less likely to be murdered if I'm allowed to possess a gun? Maybe...

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cjhsa wrote:

From what I see, it appears the homicide rate peaked right around 1994, when the AWB was implemented. Most were handgun related, but few handguns fall under the AWB.

Try this: http://www.ont.com/users/kolya/AR15/awc.htm

Even I cannot pass it.

I, as a Canadian, did pass it. What is the point?

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Intrepid wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
If handguns were banned entirely, I wonder if the number of homicides committed with kitchen knives would go up?

At least the victim would have a chance of seeing the attacker and fighting back

Give the victim a gun and he/she can fight back also .... even a grandmother who might otherwise have difficulty wielding a kitchen knife in self-defense.

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Ticomaya wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
If handguns were banned entirely, I wonder if the number of homicides committed with kitchen knives would go up?

At least the victim would have a chance of seeing the attacker and fighting back

Give the victim a gun and he/she can fight back also .... even a grandmother who might otherwise have difficulty wielding a kitchen knife in self-defense.

and possibly shoot 2 or 3 of the grandkids in the process!

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Intrepid wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
If handguns were banned entirely, I wonder if the number of homicides committed with kitchen knives would go up?

At least the victim would have a chance of seeing the attacker and fighting back

Give the victim a gun and he/she can fight back also .... even a grandmother who might otherwise have difficulty wielding a kitchen knife in self-defense.

and possibly shoot 2 or 3 of the grandkids in the process!

That's why they should hit the range every now and again ... to keep those motor skills sharp. :wink:

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AWB Ends, Homicide Rate Drops

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