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Supremes rule against medical marijuana

 
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 12:15 pm
Foxfyre - please read Scalia's opinion and tell me if you understand it; I don't.

Agreed that 2 other conservatives voted with the majority, but the dissent makes perfect sense from an economic standpoint, while the majority opinion is complete nonsense.

If I had training in constitutional law and not in mathematical economics I might be able to understand it, but as it is I don't - sorry.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 12:17 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I always thought "conservatism" meant less government intrusion into private lives.


Precisely my point, Cicerone, it does mean that.

Another reason I believe Will to be in error, the conservative position being entirely clear whatever Scalia's opinion might claim to the contrary.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 05:45 pm
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 07:43 pm
interesting thread.

stepping into the way back machine, i seem to remember that while i was one of the last in my crowd of teenage musicians to smoke pot, several of them actually started their experimentation with the true psychedelics like acid and mescalin. being that we were in kentucky, a former hemp growing empire of rope products, the eradication programs were still in heavy swing, so not much local grown. and back then, most of the weed came up to us out of mexico and to a lesser extent, columbia. (umm gold columbian. he waxes nostalgic. Cool ) so it was fairly common that the real gateway drug was first getting into pop's marlboros and then the beer.

also, it seems like over the years, for the most part, that the recreational drug user demos have been kind of like political parties in a way. most of the stoners i've known would also be up for checking out related substances such as hash and oils without much reticence. some of the psychedelics of the day like lsd (if ya could actually find something that wasn't just strichnine), mushrooms and peyote also seemed to be on the "approved list". i never saw any of these substances cause anyone any real problems and never saw the substance itself cause violence and such.

but we kind of looked down on heroin addicts and speed freaks as people that really weren't looking for anything enlightening to happen. just looking for a body high. i still feel the same way about those drugs along with cocaine, a drug that i actually have seen mess up people's lives.

the interesting thing to me is that over the last 85 years or so that there has been a reefer debate, it has been cast alternately as a substance that will make you slothful and at other times it has been said to cause extreme violence. i've never seen that the marijuana itself is the cause of either condition. especially violence. although i have observed very violent people smoke pot. their violent nature exists with or without the use of marijuana.

although i'm in favor of complete legalization of pot, in a way i'm kind of happy that it's not (though here in cal-ee-forn-yaa, it's still decriminalized for possession of an ounce or less) because i suspect that once the government got involved the overall quality in texture, aroma, taste and euphoria would go right down while taxation and hassle would go up.

can't ya just see the commercials now?? the cheesey slogan songs ?

"mar-i-juana smalls... one for the roadddddd, bayy-byyyyy"

"seattle skunk gives my husband the quality buzz he wants. anytime he wants it"

"if it doesn't get you all baked, it doesn't belong in your face"

"we don't grow the pot. we make things that make the pot better. papers by basf."

or on the cable news channels...

"this is the way we clean the buds, clean the buds. this is the way we roll the joint, roll the joint."

yipe !
Laughing
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Debra Law
 
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Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 03:33 am
Montana attorney general says state medical marijuana law is still valid

Quote:
A Montana law allowing people to use medical marijuana remains valid in the wake of Monday's U.S. Supreme Court decision.

People exercising their rights under that law will not face state prosecution, Montana Attorney General Mike McGrath said.

And the state has no obligation to assist the federal government in prosecuting people who use marijuana in accordance with the state statute, he said. . . .

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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 04:33 am
McGentrix wrote:
The problem lies in the fact that marijuana IS illegal. That's what we have to work with. We can hypothesize til the cows come home.

Eehhmm ... hello - I'm from Holland, remember? The "fact" is that posession of marijana is NOT illegal where I'm from. So I don't get where I'm supposed to be merely "hypothesising".
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 05:33 am
The link to the Supreme Court decision was posted on the previous page. Illegality of possession was not the grounds for the majority decision, the constitutional clause on interstate commerce was.

The case concerned people who only grew plants in their own yards for their own consumption, so as the dissent states (excerpt of dissent posted on previous page also) commerce was not involved, not interstate, not intra-state, not even across the street, and the majority decision is absurd on those grounds.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 06:13 am
nimh wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
The problem lies in the fact that marijuana IS illegal. That's what we have to work with. We can hypothesize til the cows come home.

Eehhmm ... hello - I'm from Holland, remember? The "fact" is that posession of marijana is NOT illegal where I'm from. So I don't get where I'm supposed to be merely "hypothesising".


But we are discussing the ruling made in the US and the legalities of marijuana in the US.
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john w k
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 06:20 am
Debra_Law wrote:
Montana attorney general says state medical marijuana law is still valid

Quote:
A Montana law allowing people to use medical marijuana remains valid in the wake of Monday's U.S. Supreme Court decision.

People exercising their rights under that law will not face state prosecution, Montana Attorney General Mike McGrath said.

And the state has no obligation to assist the federal government in prosecuting people who use marijuana in accordance with the state statute, he said. . . .



Well now, will that Attorney’s General have the fortitude to file criminal charges against any federal agents who attempt to arrest and/or detain any resident of Montana who is in compliance with state law as adopted under that state’s constitution? And, in addition, will he/she also defend those charged with a crime by the feds, asserting Congress has not been granted any intended power by the people to regulated the growth, use and transportation of agricultural products within the various state borders.

For example see:

§ 242. Deprivation of rights under color of law


§ 241. Conspiracy against rights


For the constitutional issues involved see:
A most formidable domestic enemy: the SCOTUS



JWK
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 06:34 am
John W K - isn't your objection the very reason that the majority opinion had to be based on the interstate commerce clause (however ridiculous that basis may be in the specific case), so as to supersede all state law?

And isn't that the very basis for both dissents I and II, specifically dissent I (i) and (ii) with which Rehnquist concurred?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 07:09 am
Re the ruling and interstate commerce, there is this from George Will's piece posted a page or two back:

Quote:
In a 6-3 ruling, the court held that Congress' claim to exclusive regulatory authority over drugs, legal and illegal, fell well within its constitutional power to regulate interstate commerce. This was predictable, given what the court said 63 years ago about an Ohio farmer's 239 bushels of homegrown wheat.

That, used for food, seeds and feed for livestock, was raised and used entirely on Roscoe Filburn's farm. None of it entered intrastate, let alone interstate, commerce. So Filburn argued that although the 239 bushels exceeded his production quotas under the federal Agricultural Adjustment Act, they were none of the federal government's business and he refused to pay the stipulated penalty.

A unanimous Supreme Court disagreed, arguing that the cumulative effect of even minor and local economic activities can have interstate consequences. The court said even a small quantity of grain "supplies a need of the man who grew it which would otherwise be reflected by purchases in the open market. Homegrown wheat in this sense competes with wheat in commerce." That said, clearly Congress' power under the Commerce Clause is vast enough to permit Congress to decide that the use of even homegrown marijuana can affect the interstate market.


Now, addressing Hoft's earlier question, as I believe Mr. Will does careful research and is not given to wild speculation, I believe his take on this is the accurate one re the SC opinion.

The difference between exceeding the allocated wheat quota and marijuana, however, is that it is legal to buy, sell, and transport wheat over state lines. It is not legal to buy, sell, and transport marijuana over state lnes. There is not supposed to be any interstate market for marijuana. So would the same principle apply in the ruling? The SC apparently thinks it does.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 07:15 am
Agreed that George Will does careful research, Foxfyre, but as a jurist he isn't in the same class as Rehnquist, who dissented from the majority decision.

In this case I find I'm in better company with Rehnquist's legal opinion than I would be with Wills'. Simple!
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 07:59 am
You'll get no argument from me on that HofT, but in defense of George Will, I don't think he was arguing for or against either side. His point is that the Supremes were all over the map on this one. I think Rehnquist, Thomas, and O'Connor got it right. Six other justices disagreed, however, including Scalia who is perhaps the most strict constitutional constructionist on the court.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 08:05 am
Not so, Foxfyre. From your own quote of Will's article:

"...That said, clearly Congress' power under the Commerce Clause is vast enough to permit Congress to decide that the use of even homegrown marijuana can affect the interstate market."

That is precisely the part that Rehnquist thinks is complete nonsense - along with O'Connor and Thomas btw.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 08:25 am
Hmm. Well you could take that either way. Put into context, that comment could be the rationale used by the court or it could be George Will's conclusion based on the situation. As I cannot clearly determine his intent there, I can't say you're wrong, HofT.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 08:55 am
And here's a piece challenging my view that Scalia is the strict constructionist. Or maybe not. Krauthammer says Scalia is a 'precedent man' while it is Thomas who is an 'originalist'. Interesting stuff. And I'm coming to a conclusion that I'm in over my head again here. Smile

From Thomas, Original Views

By Charles Krauthammer

Friday, June 10, 2005; Page A23

Justice Thomas: "Dope is cool."

Justice Scalia: "Let the cancer patients suffer."


If the headline writers characterized Supreme Court decisions the way many senators and most activists and lobbying groups do, that is how they would have characterized the Supreme Court decision this week on the use of medical marijuana in California. It was ruled illegal because the federal law prohibiting it supersedes the state law permitting it. Scalia agreed with the decision. Thomas dissented.

In our current, corrupted debates about the judges, you hear only about results. Priscilla Owen, we were told (by the Alliance for Justice), "routinely backs corporations against worker and consumer protections." Well, in what circumstances? In adjudicating what claims? Under what constitutional doctrine?

The real question is never what judges decide but how they decide it. The Scalia-Thomas argument was not about concern for cancer patients, the utility of medical marijuana or the latitude individuals should have regarding what they ingest.

It was about what the Constitution's commerce clause permits and, even more abstractly, who decides what the commerce clause permits. To simplify only slightly, Antonin Scalia says: Supreme Court precedent. Clarence Thomas says: the Founders, as best we can interpret their original intent.

The Scalia opinion (concurring with the majority opinion) appeals to dozens of precedents over the past 70 years under which the commerce clause was vastly expanded to allow the federal government to regulate what had, by the time of the New Deal, become a highly industrialized country with a highly nationalized economy.

Thomas's dissent refuses to bow to such 20th-century innovations. While Scalia's opinion is studded with precedents, Thomas pulls out founding-era dictionaries (plus Madison's notes from the Constitutional Convention, the Federalist Papers and the ratification debates) to understand what the word commerce meant then. And it meant only "trade or exchange" (as distinct from manufacture) and not, as we use the term today, economic activity in general. By this understanding, the federal government had no business whatsoever regulating privately and medicinally grown marijuana.

This is constitutional "originalism" in pure form. Its attractiveness is that it imposes discipline on the courts. It gives them a clear and empirically verifiable understanding of constitutional text -- a finite boundary beyond which even judges with airs must not go.

And if conditions change and parts of the originalist Constitution become obsolete, amend it. Democratically. We have added 17 amendments since the Bill of Rights. Amending is not a job for judges.

The position represented by Scalia's argument in this case is less "conservative." It recognizes that decades of precedent (which might have, at first, taken constitutional liberties) become so ingrained in the life of the country, and so accepted as part of the understanding of the modern Constitution, that it is simply too revolutionary, too legally and societally disruptive, to return to an original understanding long abandoned.

And there is yet another view. With Thomas's originalism at one end of the spectrum and Scalia's originalism tempered by precedent -- rolling originalism, as it were -- in the middle, there is a third notion, championed most explicitly by Justice Stephen Breyer, that the Constitution is a living document and that the role of the court is to interpret and reinterpret it continually in the light of new ideas and new norms.

This is what our debate about judges should be about. Instead, it constantly degenerates into arguments about results.

Two years ago, Thomas (and Scalia and William Rehnquist) dissented from the court's decision to invalidate a Texas law that criminalized sodomy. Thomas explicitly wrote, "If I were a member of the Texas Legislature, I would vote to repeal it." However, since he is a judge and not a legislator, he could find no principled way to use a Constitution that is silent on this issue to strike down the law. No matter. If Thomas were nominated tomorrow for chief justice you can be sure that some liberal activists would immediately issue a news release citing Thomas's "hostility to homosexual rights."

And they will undoubtedly cite previous commerce clause cases -- Thomas joining the majority of the court in striking down the Gun Free School Zones Act and parts of the Violence Against Women Act -- to show Thomas's "hostility to women's rights and gun-free schools."

I hope President Bush nominates Thomas to succeed Rehnquist as chief justice, not just because honoring an originalist would be an important counterweight to the irresistible modern impulse to legislate from the bench but, perhaps more importantly, to expose the idiocy of the attacks on Thomas that will inevitably be results-oriented: hostile toward women, opposed to gun-free schools . . . and pro-marijuana?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/09/AR2005060901726.html
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 11:25 am
HofT wrote:
Not so, Foxfyre. From your own quote of Will's article:

"...That said, clearly Congress' power under the Commerce Clause is vast enough to permit Congress to decide that the use of even homegrown marijuana can affect the interstate market."

That is precisely the part that Rehnquist thinks is complete nonsense - along with O'Connor and Thomas btw.


and it is nonsense. since pot is not sold in the legal market place, how would homegrown affect the interstate marijuana market ?

the legalization of marijuana would affect the prescription drug market though, imo.

i think i'll look around to see if i can find any info on the input of the drug corporations/lobbies on the marijuana laws.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 12:11 pm
DTom writes
Quote:
the legalization of marijuana would affect the prescription drug market though, imo.


You could be right here, but wouldn't that in fact give credence to the idea that interstate traffic would be affected? Look at the case cited. A farmer grows more wheat than his allocated quota on the theory that if he uses all the extra wheat himself for seed, etc. he isn't hurting anybody. But the court ruled that no, if the farmer uses his own overproduction, he is not buying wheat for seed, etc. and thus interstate sales are affected.

So if people growing their own pot affect interstate sales of pharmaseuticals, then that would be the same thing, yes? Dumb or not, you can see the rationale.

Personally I would rather see marijuane decriminalized and tightly regulated for awhile just to see if it would have a detrimental affect on society. I am opposed to criminalizing things because they MIGHT be harmful.

But
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 12:17 pm
Foxfyre - the wheat farmer's case related to federal SUBSIDIES to farmers; clearly irrelevant to non-subsidized items grown in one's own garden.

Pls think this through - if you have roses growing in your own garden and you cut some to bring them inside and decorate your dinner table you are now in breach of the commerce clause in the constitution!

If that's not nonsense then words have no meaning.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 12:30 pm
I don't think your analogy is related, HofT unless the growing of rose is regulated and you go against the mandated regulation. The issue of the wheat farmer was not subsidies, but rather price support regulation. The quotas assigned to each farmer was to regulate the amount of wheat available across the entire country and thus maintain a price that made growing wheat at all profitable. And because it was a national price support program, that is presumably where interstate traffic came in.
If the farmer exceeded his quota, even for his own use, that farmer would not be buying his wheat seed on the open market. If enough did that, it would disrupt the whole system. (I lived many years among the wheat fields of Kansas--those farmers took those allotments very very seriously.)

And if you extrapolate Dtom's theory into the interestate sales of pharaceuticals, it does fit.
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