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dialogical aesthetics

 
 
Vivien
 
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Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 09:07 am
JLNobody wrote:
.....the struggle I had coming to love Kandinsky. Kline and deKooning required very little effort. Gauguin, Van Gogh and Daumier, none. Gradually, Kandinsky's work appeared to be increasingly marvelous. I know that it was not Kandinsky who improved; it was I. ?


your remarks about subjectivity are so true I never had to struggle to like Kandinsky but do struggle to like de Kooning, Gauguin and Van Gogh fine but Daumier? not for me - but ideas can change and opinions become more informed, I've always hated the work of Bacon but recent conversations with jln, Miklos and Florence have opened my mind a bit and I can now respect them more whilst still not liking them!

The comments by F about the lack of a barrier between the suffering in the image and the viewer, no distance, no cushioning of the shock is so true, the same way, though non-violent, that Rembrandt gets into the personal space of his subjects. We are used to the violence at a relatively safe distance and nicely separated from us.

I'm no intellectual either, just a painter but like Osso I am interested in intellectual subjects and read avidly.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 10:39 am
Osso, for this retired academic your statement--"I think the author is an academic writing to impress other academics and not for clarity"--rings VERY true.
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 12:29 pm
<that was Vivien that said that...>
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 01:47 pm
Oh well, Osso, you too are capable of such outlandish, but true, statements.
Vivien, are you referring to the PAINTINGS of Daumier? I was not referring to his political cartoons, which are wonderful but not the great art that I see in his paintings. I've got two books of reproductions of Daumier's paintings and examine them occasionally for inspiration
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Portal Star
 
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Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 09:37 am
I have a lot of respect for the paintings of Lucian Freud, but I find them too psychologically disturbing to like them.

Van gogh is disturbing in a way that is like rock music. Its bright, sudden, intense, emotional. And I can relate to that.

But Freud's painting makes me think of smelly humans, dissapointment, and incestuous relationships. While Balthus does this sort of thing overtly, Freud does it in a more subjective way that I find more appaling. Like a subversive plot to overthrow any kind of appealing sensuality in the figure.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 01:51 pm
PS, I have a feeling about Freud's bodies similar to yours. Could you show us your "Portrait of Alex"? (I think that's the title). I loved the way you modeled her skin with a subtle use of color.
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art liker
 
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Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 02:08 pm
It's interesting to see Kandinsky and post-impressionism work their way into this forum topic...

My tolerance for obscure writing may be relative to my age, I turn 28 next week, and I should probably be better read than I now am. I guess I shouldn't be too worried about stating this, as I see exposing my vulnerability as a way to overcome insecurity. Anyway--I enjoy having to think more than usual when I read about art theory. (I am not in any way trying to suggest theory is superior to practice in art, or vice versa.) Although I was seriously repulsed with James Gaywood's "yBa'' as Critique: The Socio-Political Inferences of the Mediated Identity of Recent British Art (1997). My tolerance for Gaywood's language was at an all time low. If you think Kwon is dense, Gaywood's syntax is to me, nearly indecipherable. I took notes on it, but as I was also reading Confessions of an English Opium Eater by Thomas de Quincey I found the preface written in 1821 to be about as clear as Gaywood's essay from 1997. BUT, I did find some of Gaywood's (and de Quincey's) ideas interesting, or at least his reification of some theories through quoting others, i.e., the fallacy of an avant-garde in art after postmodernism, or the nostalgic orthodoxy of anything that claims to be such in art today. Not sure I fully agree though.

I just finished Irene Gammel's Baroness Elsa: Gender, Dada, and Everyday Modernity--a 'cultural biography.' Gammel is a Professor of English at the University of Prince Edward Island. But what ever--in all honesty I found myself eager to finish the book more because I wanted to see what the Baroness would do next, more than actually enjoying Gammel's work directly. I tried! I wanted to like her writing, and I didn't want to give up on the book, I felt obligated to finish it so I could blab about it with a real sense of conviction. But it was dry, like the way an air conditioner makes you feel in an office cubicle. The Baroness was superbly unconventional and pleasantly disturbing, the antithesis of the feelings I got from Gammel.

Now I'm reading Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment, again. I read it first ten years ago. Leatherbound and disintegrating, it's wrapped in a manila folder-turned book cover in my totebag right next to Kwon, Gaywood, and the many others in Theory in Cont. Art Since '85. Augustan, maybe. I've read some on this, I'll have to revisit.

It's a shame that writing might be held as an inferior skill in comparison to how a professor might maintain enthusiasm in a class atmosphere. For a serious student, I would think that one's passion for the subject woud sustain any shortcomings of the professor as entertainer. I suppose Kwon should be one hell of a speaker! Who knows? Really, does anyone?
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Vivien
 
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Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 03:15 pm
I don't think any of us see writing as a lesser skill but an equal one. (Miklos is a writer - a very good one, I've read 2 of his books and thoroughly enjoyed them, his writing style is accessible but literary, thought provoking, evokes visual ideas and makes you think - one critic likened him to Proust 'with Proust on one shoulder and ???can't remember who on the other....')

I just like interesting ideas put forward in an interesting way and not wrapped up in obscure language simply to impress other academics.

The skill of teaching doesn't necessarily mean you are a good writer and vice versa, I think that's all that was being said.
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art liker
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:44 am
art education
Did someone write that Miklos isn't a good writer? I hope I didn't. After all my somewhat disgrunlted ramblings in this discussion thread, I think Miklos has been the most generous and articulate in terms of taking the time to respond to texts that have otherwise been rendered as innocuous or unneccesarily obscure. But in fact, I appreciate everyone's responses--however opposed to my views. I'm new to this town, and I don't know many people who are willing to suffer my interests in art theory. I really appreciate being able to discuss my interests with you all here.

It's interesting that the criteria for what makes one a good teacher has come up--so at the expense of being shuffled back into the mire of obscurity, I want to refer to that damned book again, and to Thierry de Duve's comparison of two paradigms in teaching art/education, based on principles of creativity and talent, in "When Form Has Become Attitude--And Beyond." Here is a synopsis of the essay:
http://home.netvigator.com/~jasperl/r%60tdd.htm

De Duve's Three Paradigms
CIRCA 89 Art Education Supplement
Quote:
Two models, even though in reality they contaminate each other, divide up the teaching of art. On the one hand, there is the academic model; on the other, there is the Bauhaus model. The former believes in talent, the latter in creativity. The former classifies the arts according to techniques, what I would call metier; the latter according to medium. The former fosters imitation; the latter invention. Both models are obsolete. [1]

Thierry de Duve thus introduces his interrogation of the dominant paradigms in art education in Europe and North America. His full analysis, as laid out at a conference at the University of Southampton in 1993, is succinct, direct and persuasive. This analysis leads him to postulate a further paradigm of art education. De Duve now sees "the most advanced art schools" organised according to "the disenchanted, perhaps nihilistic, after-image of the old Bauhaus paradigm." In place of the models of "talent-metier-imitation" (academic) and "creativity-medium-invention" (modernist) De Duve posits a "new triad of notions: attitude-practice-deconstruction." He reserves his most scathing critique for this, as he terms it, "imploded paradigm." Describing the development of art education in the 1970s, he points to the prior emergence of conceptual art, with special mention for the When Attitude Becomes Form exhibition of 1969 (Bern/London) and claims:

Linguistics, semiotics, anthropology, psychoanalysis, Marxism, feminism, structuralism and post-structuralism, in short 'theory' (or so-called 'French theory') entered art schools and succeeded in displacing-sometimes replacing-studio practice while renewing the critical vocabulary and intellectual tools with which to approach the making and appreciating of art.

De Duve acknowledges that this shift in emphasis from creativity to attitude occurred "with considerable differences depending on national and local circumstances." He concludes that in general, however, "with or without the conscious or unconscious complicity of their teachers, what had started as an ideological alternative to both talent and creativity, called 'critical attitude', became just that, an attitude, a stance, a pose, a contrivance."

The tendency toward a reorganisation of Fine Art courses which plays down the separation of traditional studio disciplines and mediums (the familiar trio of painting, print, and sculpture) may be seen to be part of this foregrounding of critical attitude or critical process. The much-vaunted interdisciplinarity of contemporary educational initiatives may do service for a great number of conflicting agendas, and can in itself become just a stance or a pose. Whatever the case, it is clearly exemplary of De Duve's third paradigm of art education.

De Duve's analysis more thoroughly questions the dominant paradigms of art education than most available accounts, which tend by and large to privilege a theory-practice dichotomy. I cite it here because it underlines a profound sense of crisis when it comes to the formulation of a definitive core philosophy to the teaching agenda. I also cite it here in order to take license in questioning art education along other lines: along the lines of a performance script I rehearse quietly between classes.


From what I can tell, this new system of art education proposed by de Duve, of "attitude-practice-deconstruction" intends to seriously address a 'crisis'(?) faced by multi-disciplinary programs in studio art.

Although my education in studio art is limited to a BA from a liberal arts college, I was enrolled in an "Honors Painting" course for three semesters, and I would definitely say that the basis of our class critiques were more conceptually critical/analytical than formal or technically based. Although, technical merit was weighed upon more heavily in order to be accpeted into the class. But my 'final' was not a painting at all, it was a performance. And in retrospect I don't view this multi-disciplinary evolution as a crisis, maybe because I'm too narrow-minded, or because the subjects I was dealing with were coherent across the board. I'm not keen on thinking that the critical response to my artwork was just an "attitude," or "critical pose." It was well received, I got an "A." It made me "happy."

I see that de Duve's "attitude-practice-decontruction" model relates to the two historical paradigms in art education in that it questions/deconstructs those histories of art education as a new art practice in itself. He states that it is the same as the recent "'creativity-medium-invention' paradigm, minus faith, plus suspicion... the negative symptom of a historical transition."

Does any of this offer enough food for thought?
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 02:51 pm
Miklos, regarding your "Van Gogh as crow sweeping up into the opening sky", I noted that one of our A2Kers bought a painting of mine which attempts to capture this sweeping of crows into the opening sky. It can be seen in the thread "JLNobody's Painting" in the forum: Original Art and Photography.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 02:54 pm
Art Liker, "food for thought" indeed. I'm digesting it now. Very interesting--and clearly written.
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art liker
 
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Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 03:38 pm
Nietzsche
I have just been reminded of Nietzche's insight, through reading a scathing review of written work by art theorist Hal Foster (Kwon's mentor), that "Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity. For the crowd believes that if it cannot see to the bottom of something it must be profound. It is so timid and dislikes going into the water. " From The Gay Science
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:22 pm
Nice lines by Foster.

(no, nag not, I still haven't read it.
packing, both of us denuding the gallery this week
for next week's teardown for a slight rebuild. Business partner will keep it and I am moving. Heh, we cracked open the wine at 3:30, early even for us.)
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 10:39 pm
Did Nietzsche not also say in the same work that some writers are offended if too easily understood, that to say to them "I understand you" is to embarrass them?
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 10:43 pm
<slinking off>
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Vivien
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 02:09 am
Re: Nietzsche
art liker wrote:
I have just been reminded of Nietzche's insight, through reading a scathing review of written work by art theorist Hal Foster (Kwon's mentor), that "Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity. For the crowd believes that if it cannot see to the bottom of something it must be profound. It is so timid and dislikes going into the water. " From The Gay Science



I so agree!
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art liker
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:28 am
quotes
Hi ossobuco: just wanted to let you know that the quote is Nietzsche's in reference to work by Foster. It was written in a review on amazon.com.
i wish you the best in your departure from my beloved hometown. i miss it and the community of artists dearly! i'll be back to visit one month from today!

JLNobody, I think I may have read something with a similar sentiment in "Thus Spoke Zarathustra," of course also by Nietzsche--in terms of being understood. So I suppose the idea is much like the status quo for recommended language/behavior in that moderation is the key(?) Not too obscure and not too simple, but just enough to make us all think about what is being said and done, right? I agree sometimes. Other times I like to push the envelope, so to speak.

say, are any of you aware of this website? http://www.artdaily.com/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=14149

good source for news, and the publisher is open to positing your press if its good.
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Vivien
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 03:00 pm
Re: quotes
art liker wrote:
. So I suppose the idea is much like the status quo for recommended language/behavior in that moderation is the key(?) Not too obscure and not too simple, but just enough to make us all think about what is being said and done, right? I agree sometimes. Other times I like to push the envelope, so to speak.

quote]

I'm all for pushing the envelope - but with clarity please! that description is too dumbed down and extreme and I certainly wouldn't go for that. It's the thoughts and ideas that count and writing is about communication - if it is too obscure and academic-speak it doesn't communiucate those ideas effectively surely?

(by the way I didn't suggest that you didn't think Miklos writing was good - I was merely commenting that his books are good, thought provoking and communicate really well)
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 03:28 pm
When ideas are too subtle to be expressed simply, obscurity is pardoned. I would not expect a theoretical physicist to explain the intrincacies of relative theory or string theory to me in plain English, nor would I expect a zen master to "explain" the perspective of zen non-paradoxically. But the STYLE of discourse in "contemporay" post-modern intellectual life is downright boorish in its obscurantism.
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Miklos7
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 04:09 pm
JL, Actually, both string theory and relativity theory can be explained in simple language (Just, please, don't ask ME to try!). Physicists have mathematics as a convenient--and rapid--means of communication with each other; when a physicist talks with me, however, most of his elegant math must be converted to prose, and the communication slows down--a lot. This is not to say, however, that anything is lost in translation, if the physicist has the patience to frame a complex idea in straightforward English. Some scientists with big ideas--for instance, Wolfram--take special care to publish in multiple formats, one of them being simple prose.

Zen perspective is possibly a major translation problem! However, the lessons which lead a pupil to appreciation of this perspective may be in simple language.

I find the clear expression of subtle emotional states to be a huge challenge--these states are so subjective that, perhaps, the issue becomes the same sharing of visions you noted recently in your rich exposition on artistic communion between viewer and painter.
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