dialogical aesthetics

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Do any of you find yourselves engaged in such a thing? I'm familiar with the concept of aesthetic imperative in art concerning works that are primarily conceptual, textual, ephemeral, etc., but I have to admit that this form of artistic practice, as recognized in Theory in Contemporary Art Since 1985, is new to me.

See Grant Kester's essay
http://www.variant.randomstate.org/9texts/KesterSupplement.html

Described in contrast to Habermas' model which apparently belittles the significance of listener in dialogue, this form of artistic practice acknowledges the value of just simply listening--to the degree that it is integral to the practice. How bizarre, and wonderful! To read that listening (and much more as written in the essay) has made it's way into the realm of contemporary art. I love it, myself, because I feel like I can empathize with this value system. So dialogical aesthetics is practiced not within a conversation which one speaker tries to "win," but rather, tries to empathize with the other, any Other, to a degree that redefines the speaker's understandding as self. I do think this happens in conversations all the time, but now that it has found its way into the field of contemporary art, aside from "the fine art of speech," I see that it, as a definitive phenomenon or artistic practice, can be objectified, and ultimately commodified. After all, I bought the book that introduced me to the idea, and I would probably pay to witness or participate in a performance involving it.

So what do you all make this, dialogical aesthetics?

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I found Kesters essay needlessly obtuse. He never got around to actually "define" Littoral art even though thats the heading of his first paragraph. Im gonna go look this up and hope I dont come up with lots of references to progradational beach sediments or "tidepool ecology".

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Littoral art and the dialogic aesthetics defined

Quote:

Littoral - life beyond the art world
We adopted the name LITTORAL to describe the ?in-between-ness? and provisional nature of our work. A geographical term, referring to the sea-shore zone between high and low tide, the littoral is an ever-changing unstable area where land, air and water continually interact, and new life forms evolve. This interface also exists between art and the life world, where acute social, economic, and environmental problems are increasingly redefined as an intractable 'wild zone' (Urry), seemingly resistant to conventional modes of creative inquiry and professional practice.

Littoral zones may be characterised by conditions of complexity, uncertainty, underinvestment, marginality and instability, and this is where we feel most at home. This way of working acknowledges the need for a more inclusive aesthetic, sometimes referred to as a ?dialogic aesthetic? (Kester), or an ?ecological aesthetic? (Koh). We subscribe to both, and are engaged in a parallel programme of forums, curatorial projects and theoretical enquiry with a range of artist partners, to map out and define the coorinatate of this emerging new area of art practice. (see ?Deep Practice - Art and Sustainability?).

It turns out that what they seem to be talking about is the "community Creativity Approach" or "multidisciplines going interdsciplined" We in the US are fond more of creating acronyms than applying otherwise cryptic references to such activity.Defining and solving all sorts of projects by collective creativity-Nothing wrong with that. I just think tht some of these definitions remind me of art school "artists statements" that are uselessly pompous and often show a profound ignorance of the problem at hand.It reminds me of a work I saw many years ago at a regional art show. It was called "Rapid atom"I think the artist just took a random word generator and let it do the title.I guess I slipped the bonds of your question but I answered it in a non-confrontational way

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OK, now I'm interested. Word play!

I kid. I am actually not interested. But maybe I will perk up as you all converse.

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Stuff like this drives me nuts. I read Kesters article and saw my old Dean of Arts College who spoke in a fashion to impress rather than communicate. So I hadda look up the root of he phrases, and it turns out that its a group of English artists, workers, farmers, architects . All who wish to discuss and solve problems of community size by applying each others skills.
The English appreciate involved discussions
. My problem , when I read the article (even though Kester is from U Az) I kept thinking "Monty Pythons , I would like to Have some cheese" skit

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Japanese Sage Darby ?

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Hmmm. I still have not read the link... I am recalcitrant that way, but I will, one of these hours.

But I see this push pull in myself. What you describe, farmer, re the architects and artists and farmers, and so on, applies to my natural interest in planning (I am licensed as someone who can do planning, but...). I am interested and yet repelled. One of my main fascinations is how cities work or don't, well, how landuse works, or doesn't, but doing that as a job rather than musing would kill it dead for me. And certainly a title about dialogical aesthetics would put in the last nail.... at the same time I might be interested in the underlying questions.

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And, art liker, I am really glad you are here with us at a2k. Please perservere with your questions; I think eventually they'll pick up more responses.

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sorry, fresh out. Howabout ome nice Red Leicester?
Osso, I cn see how planning could be a frustrating effort when its almost the LAST thing that anybody reallycares about.
We adopt ordinances and they are so fragmented that they only serve as a mild impediment to anyone really interested in raping the land. Ive always marveled at California and how it got so despoiled in the 30 years Ive been travelling there. I then realized that , in such a wild growth area, you cannot plan, you can only respond.

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Venezualan Beaver Cheese ?

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I am just not a natural community coordinator. I had to dump a thesis project for another one because I had asked a planner onto my committee. The other two guys, a planner and an artist-land designer had eye rolling contests. That was for the median strip of Venice Boulevard. Don't even ask me what I think of it when I saw it last, years after that. But I didn't have the heart at the time for multiple matrices, and don't now either.

Still, I am interested in the subject, including re aesthetics, which mostly have something to do - for me - with the native site. Never mind, down from soap box.

Venzuelan Beever Cheese?

Crackers with Humboldt Fog and a good Sauvignon Blanc or brain whacking bubbly water.

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gullible optimist
this probably describes me best when it comes to art theory. i suppose i always want to think that there really is some innovative substance at hand when i am introduced to new concepts in art, but i must admit i had my doubts about Kester's essay as well, and Farmerman, i appreciate your astute judgement on the matter.

ossobuco-- i am from the north of northern california. lived there nearly my whole life--in humboldt. i was the exhibition manager for the morris graves museum of art. i appreciate your support, and humor for, my sometimes naïve suggestions for serious discussion. i just bought a new book and i'm excited about it, and i should probably let the messages digest a bit more before i proclaim ground in the legitimacy of its content.

Farmerman, i do think "needlessly obtuse" is a bit too critical. If dialogical aesthetics can be used as a novel artistic practice to open up anyone toward a more effective forms of empathy they may not have identified outside this field, then I see it as quite valuable, however highbrow the theory may seem.

i'm not into writing or speaking just to impress myself, believe me. or at least i think i'm not. i like Monty Python. i'll have to look into that skit.

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art liker. I was being more critical of myself re: Kester. If he had anything worth saying, he should have been more accessible. The "littoral" project pages were very informative and meant to communicate.

I sit on a regional planning commission and Im always frustrated whenever a plan comes forth that gets reviewed initially merely for "conformance" and "administrative completeness" . Whatever happened to the concept "Is this project gonna look like crap?"
"Is it going to impose itself on the landscape like a Gettysburg Lookout Tower (a local Pa joke for 15 years, till we got the cojones to blow it up. It was an eyesore to sacred ground).

I certainly applaud getting all sorts of projects viewed from as many angles as possible. However, Ive been disappointed quite alot.

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When was this? I think we know each other slightly, art liker.

I won't mention our gallery name here for another few weeks, as a2k has a strict non promotional post rule, which I agree with. But I am bowing out and moving to Albuquerque towards the end of the summer, and my business partner will renew the lease, which ends at the end of June, for a short time.

Ahem, I live in Eureka... just got home after ArtsAlive. I have a piece in the present Small Painting Show at the Morris Graves.. but I wasn't at the opening since I was at our gallery...

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yeah. To me, the more people are bullshitting, the more vague their words and statements are.

If you have a -real- message to get across, you'll probably just say it. For example "This man needs open heart surgery, give me the scapel" Wouldn't be stated "A being through wich life ceases pumping may or may not benefit from direct use of a sterelized utensil."

Aesthetic realms are especially prone to bulshitters. Unfortuately, many schools encourage it. In a way, if you're not saying something but the words sound pretty, you can't be criticized.

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portal, I could kiss you. I thoughtit was me being an Ole geezer. In my art school days, I remember all the instructors and their "vague, somewhat off putting artists statements" that accompanied their shows. I found them, more often than not, kind of embarrasing cause I was already making a career in science and I often thought that we had a lock on the "bullshit quotient". Apparently not.

"Those that can, paint..."

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Re: gullible optimist

art liker wrote:

If dialogical aesthetics can be used as a novel artistic practice to open up anyone toward a more effective forms of empathy they may not have identified outside this field, then I see it as quite valuable, however highbrow the theory may seem.

I might agree with this if I ever settle down and read the link art liker gave. I think it is the very term dialogical aesthetics that puts me off.

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I agree with Portal and Farmer that bullspeech is horrendous and usually unnecessary. I particularly dislike it in Artspeak. In the social sciences, the post-structuralism, post-modernism, deconstructuralism, and discourse theory movements have all but destroyed themselves by their obscurantism. I should talk, with my mystical talk on other threads. But I DO try to communicate; it's just that the subject matter is so subjective that one must struggle to achieve moments of inter-subjectivity (how's that for obscurity?).
I just do not have the energy or time (too much else to do and read) to labor through the prescribed essay. But it's my guess that "dialogical" refers to cooperative or joint art-making and littoral connotes an area including both popular and esoteric areas of art. A bridging area and action, so to speak.
I will get to Kester's essay eventually; it seems worthwhile. Thanks Artliker

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On language, I have been a lucky woman to have studied both science and art, and agree with farmer re the prevalence of obscurantism in both fields. I saved a scientific paper on obscurantism for years, a bit of a joke paper, as I remember, though it read very dourly.

I also like precision of vocabulary, though I often fail to practice it myself. Rare and wise the person is who can speak plainly with elegant word selection.

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As an aside, here's a link on the Morris Graves Museum.

http://www.humboldtarts.org/

I see that the Small Works show is listed as by high school students. (No, that would surprise a bunch of folks.)

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