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Can Atheists learn to speak Theist?

 
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 Sep, 2019 05:02 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

Forgiveness is necessary and for that all you need is to repent sincerely to God. It is a direct relationship between you and your God. Concepts such as original sin and atonement are man made concepts and have nothing to do with mercy and forgiveness of God. These concepts go against God's very nature of forgiving, merciful and loving.

For some reason, human nature leads people to assume that atonement is necessary for sin. The story of Adam & Eve portrays this in terms of A&E covering themselves out of shame for their sin, at which point God asks them, "who told you to cover/hide yourselves?"

If egotism didn't run deep in human nature, why would people fight against religions like Christianity and Islam so vehemently? All Christianity is asking is that you accept Christ's crucifixion and resurrection as salvation from sin. All Islam asks is that you acknowledge there is only one God, and Mohamed is a prophet.

People want to fight against other people, so they choose aspects of Christians or Muslims they know or have seen in the media or in history books and oppose themselves to the religions on the bases that those people identified themselves with those religions.

In spirituality, things are simpler. You study the ideas and consult your conscience to determine what validity there is to find in them. You don't twist them to mean what you need them to mean to debate and reject them. You put effort into recognizing what is truly acceptable/believable about something, and you accept it on that basis.

Everything has true and false interpretations. If you ignore the true interpretation by confusing the false interpretations as the real meaning, then you end up obstructing yourself from experiencing truth that is available to you in your life.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Sep, 2019 09:37 am
@livinglava,
I agree with you for most part and ask you to put your words in practice. Does it make sense for you to have God in trinity? God does not change its nature. Yet Christians insists that God came down in human form. God is eternal, yet Christians insist that Jesus (supposedly God) died for our sins? What about people who lived and died before Jesus? Did they believe in Jesus? Did God forgave people without atonement? Read your bible and you will see that God did forgave many people when they asked for forgiveness? Is it JUST for us to have original sin? Did Adam asked you and me before eating from forbidden tree? Is it JUST to punish someone else for someone else's sins? None of this makes any sense to a person who is sincere and looking for the truth.

I also posted story of Adam and Eve as described in Quran yesterday, link is below. Hope reading this would help you put few pieces in right places.

https://able2know.org/topic/211316-9#post-6901882

Lastly I respect that at least you worship the same God I do. I don't associate any partners with Allah. He is absolute one. He has no needs and He is neither begotten, nor begets and there is none like Him.
You do claim that you worship one God but in reality you do associate partners with God when you believe in Holy Spirit and in Jesus. God is One, not three in One.

If you are sincere read any translation of Quran at your own and compare that to Bible. I am sure you will find answer to many questions. I have read OT & NT and it has helped me to strengthen my faith in Islam.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Sep, 2019 12:53 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
You seem to have a misunderstanding of the Bible.

A God being described as one, or a trinity, is not big deal when it is all encompassing - One can be a trinity. Christians are not 'associating' - they are saying they are the same parts of the whole. Further, even according to your own Islamic theory of abrogation, which attempts to explain away the huge discrepancies between peace and violence in the Quran, not everything needs to be revealed by God at once. So whether God was one, or a trinity from the start, should not be an issue to Muslims.

Dying for sins was necessary at some point. The people before could be forgiven, just as the people after, but at some point the death was necessary.

A part of God made human - for the purpose of his plan of salvation (whether from the start, or later, is debatable) - would be the easiest way to look at Jesus. Nothing particularly untoward about this. God remains God, but becomes a trinity for this purpose.

As for punishment of the fathers sins - I rather agree. I don't see that as 'just'. One could argue it was simply the (fallen) nature of the father passed on to the son as occurs today, and to return to the state pre-sin, a change had to be implemented. So rather than punishment, it was a natural consequence that now (as in back then) needed to be rectified, in order for the children to return to where the parent came from.

I'm not Christian by the way.
ekename
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Sep, 2019 07:42 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
None of this makes any sense to a person who is sincere and looking for the truth.


Finally, the heavens parted and the light shone through.

HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Sep, 2019 10:38 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
You seem to have a misunderstanding of the Bible. God being described as one, or a trinity, is not big deal when it is all encompassing - One can be a trinity. Christians are not 'associating' - they are saying they are the same parts of the whole. Further, even according to your own Islamic theory of abrogation, which attempts to explain away the huge discrepancies between peace and violence in the Quran, not everything needs to be revealed by God at once. So whether God was one, or a trinity from the start, should not be an issue to Muslims.


I understood Bible very well. Ibrahimic religion started with ONE God, not with Trinity. All prophets preached the same message which is God is One. Quran has been consistent through out in saying that God is One. It is new Bible which has contradictions about the very first commandment. Paul invented this concept to attract pagans toward Christianity. Trinity is three as it says and it is a fundamental issue between Muslims and Christians. Christian are not monotheist, they worship Jesus who is nothing but creation of God. Holy Spirit is angel Gabriel, yet another creation of God. We don't worship or associate anyone with God as I explained before, you are welcome to do that at your own understanding and risk.

Quran says:

Quote:
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.


This verse is key to understand Quran. Allah has stated some verses which are very clear in its meaning and those the verses which form the foundation of Islam. These are verses which define Shariah law and main pillars of Islam. There are other verses which are not very clear and only Allah know what is best interpretation of those verses. These verses does not have any impact on the main teachings of Islam but are there to test who will truely believe in God. Those who do believe dont want to rationalize everything with their intellect and just accept those verses as is. Those you have any doubt or who are not sincere will find problem with these verses and will think Quran is contradicting. Allah guides many who are sincere through Quran and those who are not sincere are misguided through same Quran.

Only question I would ask is that did you read Quran at your own cover to cover? Or are you learning Quran through the websites who obviously have their own negative agenda against Islam and Muslims? Have you ever been to a mosque? Have you interacted with Muslims? What is your experience in dealing with Muslims? If you dont have any personal experience in dealing with Muslims, and if you never read Quran at your own and if you have never been in a mosque to see what Muslims do and why they do, it will be unwise to reject Quran and Islam just because what you hear about them in media.

It is good to know that you are not Christian. Obviously you would have seen some issues when you read the Bible and that is good for you.

HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Sep, 2019 10:47 am
@ekename,
Allah has given us intellect to analyze things rationally, eyes to see and ears to hear and reflect on things around us. Alas still there are many who follow what their forefathers did blindly. Islam teaches to reflect on things around us and only rational conclusion one can come to is that God is one and He is creator of everything. Because he has created us with a specific purpose, He has also given us guidelines how to live to fulfil that purpose. Once we come to this conclusion, we can read all religions in the world and see which religion is as old as humanity and if it has any guidelines for us to live our lives. This religion should answer all question one may have about God and its guidelines to live life should be very natural to follow.
It is time for you to invest sometime in reading different religions of the world and compare them to teachings of Islam as described in Quran. Truth always stands out.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Sep, 2019 12:52 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
I understood Bible very well. Ibrahimic religion started with ONE God, not with Trinity. All prophets preached the same message which is God is One. Quran has been consistent through out in saying that God is One. It is new Bible which has contradictions about the very first commandment.
Yes. Though you apparently don't understand Christianity very well - if you ask them, the concept is nebulous, those that understand the theology believe they are one but also three.

Quote:
Only question I would ask is that did you read Quran at your own cover to cover? Or are you learning Quran through the websites who obviously have their own negative agenda against Islam and Muslims?
Several chapters. Plus the life of mohammed through various sources, both Islamic & secular. Plus specific subjects. Plus books written by muslims. Plus the history of Islam as relates to Jihad / Jihadic expansion. Where I can, both sides.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Sep, 2019 02:16 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
Yes. Though you apparently don't understand Christianity very well - if you ask them, the concept is nebulous, those that understand the theology believe they are one but also three.


That's is illogical; one is one and three is three. Three can't be one. The basic concept to believe in God should be very simple for anyone to understand. If there is any God, it has to be absolute one and the one who is eternal and does not change. I find many contradictions in Bible on this very concept.

Quote:
Several chapters. Plus the life of mohammed through various sources, both Islamic & secular. Plus specific subjects. Plus books written by muslims. Plus the history of Islam as relates to Jihad / Jihadic expansion. Where I can, both sides.


Thats very good to know. I would also advise to interact with practicing Muslims. Go to the mosque just to witness what they do and how they live their daily lives.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Sep, 2019 03:26 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

I agree with you for most part and ask you to put your words in practice. Does it make sense for you to have God in trinity?

It connects people with God, the same way other Bible stories do.

Quote:
God does not change its nature. Yet Christians insists that God came down in human form. God is eternal, yet Christians insist that Jesus (supposedly God) died for our sins?

Jesus died and resurrected, and ascended to heaven. Material bodies live and die, but the soul has eternal life. God created us in His image, but how do you reconcile God's eternal nature with death in the material form? Jesus and the Holy Trinity helps people realize God as such.

Quote:
What about people who lived and died before Jesus? Did they believe in Jesus? Did God forgave people without atonement? Read your bible and you will see that God did forgave many people when they asked for forgiveness? Is it JUST for us to have original sin? Did Adam asked you and me before eating from forbidden tree? Is it JUST to punish someone else for someone else's sins? None of this makes any sense to a person who is sincere and looking for the truth.

These stories teach us how sin evolved. Think of the story of Cain and Able. How could Cain have become envious of God's relationship with his brother except because the ability to understand sin was passed down to them.

Basically the story is showing how a good student can get jealous of a teacher's attention for bad students and then sin as a result. It's a natural progression from learning to negatively judge others who don't learn what you have learned, so it makes sense that such a sin can only emerge after someone has gained the ability to do right and thus regard someone else's failure to do right as worthy of judgment.

We are all subject to these sins because they are automatic byproducts of our human ability to think and apply reason and conscience to do right and respond to wrongdoing.

Quote:
I also posted story of Adam and Eve as described in Quran yesterday, link is below. Hope reading this would help you put few pieces in right places.

https://able2know.org/topic/211316-9#post-6901882

Lastly I respect that at least you worship the same God I do. I don't associate any partners with Allah. He is absolute one. He has no needs and He is neither begotten, nor begets and there is none like Him.
You do claim that you worship one God but in reality you do associate partners with God when you believe in Holy Spirit and in Jesus. God is One, not three in One.

I don't think you can compare the Holy Trinity with polytheism. What's more, monotheism is really only in conflict with polytheism to the extent polytheism characterizes different powers of nature as being separate and in conflict with each other. Monotheism is the recognition that all power in the universe is in harmony, not conflict/separation. Holy Trinity doesn't imply any conflict or separateness between God the father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. They each reinforce the others as being harmonious parts of an interworking divinity.

What you are saying is like saying that a family cannot be unified as long as there is more than person in the family.

Quote:
If you are sincere read any translation of Quran at your own and compare that to Bible. I am sure you will find answer to many questions. I have read OT & NT and it has helped me to strengthen my faith in Islam.

My favorite parts of the Quran deal with people who pretend to believe but don't fully believe. I see this as a major religious problem that I haven't heard much about in Christian literature I've read.

I also like that Islam directly promotes submission to God, since Christianity isn't quite so explicit about it when it reaches out to sinners with forgiveness/salvation. The idea is of course that once sinners experience the divine mercy of forgiveness and realize God's power to cleanse them of sin that they will fully submit to it, but Islam maybe reaches people a little more directly by asking them to simply recognize that there is one God and start submitting to His will.

No humans are perfect, however, so we shouldn't expect that everyone will get any religion completely right, whether it's Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or others. Sincere devotion leads in the right direction, but it's easy to make mistakes all along the way.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Sep, 2019 03:34 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

That's is illogical; one is one and three is three. Three can't be one.

'Being one' can mean to be in harmony or agreement.

Things that appear multiple are sometimes part of the same system, like the sun, Earth, and moon. The Earth's tides wouldn't exist without the moon, so you can't really say that the Earth is a single thing without the moon. Likewise, the sun is part of Earth's living biosphere, seasons, etc. so you also can't say that the Earth is separate from the sun.

So it is possible for humans to regard things as multiple, when they're really parts of the same system; or to regard things as singular when they are made up of multiple (harmoniously-interacting) parts.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Sep, 2019 03:37 pm
@livinglava,
God is not the creation. God is unique and there is none like Him.

I know there are people who believe that everything is God. If you believe that, you are on the wrong track.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Sep, 2019 04:09 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
It connects people with God, the same way other Bible stories do.


I connect with God on daily basis, it is a direct connect with my Lord and I don't need any intermediate person like Jesus or Holy Spirit.
Quote:
Jesus died and resurrected, and ascended to heaven. Material bodies live and die, but the soul has eternal life. God created us in His image, but how do you reconcile God's eternal nature with death in the material form? Jesus and the Holy Trinity helps people realize God as such.


Jesus died, your God died?
Material bodies live and die. Jesus lived and died. More interestingly this ever lasting Christian God was born through a creation created by God. Who came first creation or God?
Jesus died for your sins already so what is purpose of your life? You already believe in him and should be forgiven right? What on earth are you doing, you should already be in heaven....

Quote:
These stories teach us how sin evolved. Think of the story of Cain and Able. How could Cain have become envious of God's relationship with his brother except because the ability to understand sin was passed down to them.

Basically the story is showing how a good student can get jealous of a teacher's attention for bad students and then sin as a result. It's a natural progression from learning to negatively judge others who don't learn what you have learned, so it makes sense that such a sin can only emerge after someone has gained the ability to do right and thus regard someone else's failure to do right as worthy of judgment.

We are all subject to these sins because they are automatic byproducts of our human ability to think and apply reason and conscience to do right and respond to wrongdoing.



But people still sin, or is it because now they have got the license to do so because Jesus already died for the sins of everyone else.

You forget to mention that there are also stories in Bible which tell that God forgave people who repented for their sins before Jesus and during the time Jesus was on earth. They did not have to believe in Jesus to be forgiven.

Quote:
I don't think you can compare the Holy Trinity with polytheism. What's more, monotheism is really only in conflict with polytheism to the extent polytheism characterizes different powers of nature as being separate and in conflict with each other. Monotheism is the recognition that all power in the universe is in harmony, not conflict/separation. Holy Trinity doesn't imply any conflict or separateness between God the father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. They each reinforce the others as being harmonious parts of an interworking divinity.

What you are saying is like saying that a family cannot be unified as long as there is more than person in the family.


I know Christians love to use this example of a family and how family represents God head but family starts with wife. Who is wife in the Godhead? Families also have daughters, where are they in the Godhead.
Each person in family is an independent person not like three is one type Godhead. Or may be you are saying that each person in God head is also independent which means it is not one God but three....

Quote:
My favorite parts of the Quran deal with people who pretend to believe but don't fully believe. I see this as a major religious problem that I haven't heard much about in Christian literature I've read.

I also like that Islam directly promotes submission to God, since Christianity isn't quite so explicit about it when it reaches out to sinners with forgiveness/salvation. The idea is of course that once sinners experience the divine mercy of forgiveness and realize God's power to cleanse them of sin that they will fully submit to it, but Islam maybe reaches people a little more directly by asking them to simply recognize that there is one God and start submitting to His will.


These are good observations and thanks for acknowledging and sharing these. For me the most important think is absolute oneness of God in Quran and fundamentals of Islamic belief system are very clear in Quran. There is no ambiguity like I found in Bible. Using same Bible, people can argue that God is one and Jesus never claimed to be God and what is funny is that same Bible can also be used to claim Trinity.

Quote:
No humans are perfect, however, so we shouldn't expect that everyone will get any religion completely right, whether it's Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or others. Sincere devotion leads in the right direction, but it's easy to make mistakes all along the way.


I agree that at our own it may be impossible to find the true religion but I disagree that we can't find the true religion if we ask Allah (One God, you can call Him whatever you want God the Father is fine but Jesus as I said before is not God).

I know it is very challenging to change the belief system one is raised with. But I also know right after one hits puberty, our conscious forces us to ask questions about our purpose in life which leads us on our search for God. Many of us compromise along the way by putting our consiousness to sleep. We start sinning so much that Allah puts seal on hearts. Once a heart is sealed, it can't be guided unless we truly repent from heart and ask God to guide us to the right path. Pray to one God that He guides you to the right path and keep praying that whenever you go to sleep and I assure you that God will lead you to the truth.

Please forgive anything hurtful I may have said. That definitely is not my intention and I love that at least you do believe in God.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Sep, 2019 05:41 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

God is not the creation. God is unique and there is none like Him.

I know there are people who believe that everything is God. If you believe that, you are on the wrong track.

There are complexities here that can't be reduced. In the Lord's Prayer, for example, we ask that God's will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. To some extent God's will is always being done on Earth, but in another sense this world is riddled with sin so we can't say it is perfect because it was created by God. In still another sense, however, God did allow creation to bifurcate into good and evil, so somehow we have to reconcile the existence of evil as part of creation with God's will that we choose good over evil.

When some people say that evil is good because God created it as part of the creation, I agree with you that that is false logic.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Sep, 2019 06:10 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

I connect with God on daily basis, it is a direct connect with my Lord and I don't need any intermediate person like Jesus or Holy Spirit.

Holy Spirit isn't a person; it's a spirit; the spirit of holiness. How can you submit to God's will without accepting the spirit of Holiness?

Quote:
Jesus died, your God died?

What role does death play in God's will?

Quote:

Jesus died for your sins already so what is purpose of your life?

Obviously not to atone for sin. The purpose of life is to honor forgiveness/salvation by accepting Holy Spirit and thus submitting to God's will, i.e. giving yourself fully to being cleansed and delivered from sin. Sanctification doesn't instantly result from salvation.

Quote:
You already believe in him and should be forgiven right? What on earth are you doing, you should already be in heaven....

In a sense, you are because you delivered from the sense of condemnation and fear thereof. Consider these lyrics from Amazing Grace:
Quote:

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed!


Quote:

But people still sin, or is it because now they have got the license to do so because Jesus already died for the sins of everyone else.

No, that's a common misunderstanding; and probably some people take it as a license, but Paul says the following:
Quote:

Romans 6

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Absolutely not! 16Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?…


Quote:
You forget to mention that there are also stories in Bible which tell that God forgave people who repented for their sins before Jesus and during the time Jesus was on earth. They did not have to believe in Jesus to be forgiven.

I think the issue with rejecting Jesus (and this is my opinion and others may think differently), is that it is prideful to reject Jesus after learning about Him, the same way it would be prideful to learn about Mohamed and reject Islam on the basis of it being something that's not part of the new testament. There are things that are written, which contain truth that aren't part of the Bible; but everything that is truly true can only be true by God's will, i.e. because real truth is truth beyond human power to change or manipulate it.

Quote:

I know Christians love to use this example of a family and how family represents God head but family starts with wife. Who is wife in the Godhead? Families also have daughters, where are they in the Godhead.
Each person in family is an independent person not like three is one type Godhead. Or may be you are saying that each person in God head is also independent which means it is not one God but three....

You're making too much of the analogy. It was just an example to illustrate the point I was making about what you said.

Quote:

These are good observations and thanks for acknowledging and sharing these. For me the most important think is absolute oneness of God in Quran and fundamentals of Islamic belief system are very clear in Quran. There is no ambiguity like I found in Bible. Using same Bible, people can argue that God is one and Jesus never claimed to be God and what is funny is that same Bible can also be used to claim Trinity.

Hmm, I don't know what 'absolute oneness' means. I think there is one God/creator of all creation, meaning everything is unified in the universe. There aren't different parts of the universe or nature that are ruled/created by different Gods with different laws, e.g. a god of the sea and a different god of the sky, fire, etc. Polytheism is an interesting way of looking at different natural phenomena separately, but ultimately all phenomena flow from the same source. I don't even believe the supposedly different forces of nature are ultimately radically different, but rather manifestations of the same fundamental force that is expressed differently at different levels of creation.

Quote:
Many of us compromise along the way by putting our consiousness to sleep. We start sinning so much that Allah puts seal on hearts. Once a heart is sealed, it can't be guided unless we truly repent from heart and ask God to guide us to the right path. Pray to one God that He guides you to the right path and keep praying that whenever you go to sleep and I assure you that God will lead you to the truth.



The paragraph above is very eloquently accurate. Loving Jesus and accepting the crucifixion and resurrection are very much about true repentance. It is very hard to accept that God would allow Jesus to be dishonored and killed the way He was, so it forces us to come to terms with how pervasive sin is in the world, yet how we can look forward to eternal life instead of surrendering to sin and death.

We are called, however, to confess and repent. We can do so faithfully and without fear/hesitation by believing in our forgiveness and salvation. I know that God is also described in the Quran as 'most merciful,' though, so that resonates strongly with Christianity.
Quote:

Please forgive anything hurtful I may have said. That definitely is not my intention and I love that at least you do believe in God.

Thank you for adding this. It is mutual and should probably be said more often by more people in exchanges regarding religion.

I think, for example, that maybe I should have said, "peace be upon him," whenever I mentioned Mohamed to honor Islamic tradition, but I forgot; so if it sounded offensive to mention the prophet without adding that for respect, please believe me that it was not meant as disrespect.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Sep, 2019 11:13 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
That's is illogical; one is one and three is three. Three can't be one.
You aren't dealing with a number, but the concept of being. If a being is omnipotent and omnipresent, then it is in everything and everyone. Ie. it is a part of everything and everyone. So 1000 can be part of 1. One million can be part of one. And the reverse must also be able to be true.

Quote:
Thats very good to know. I would also advise to interact with practicing Muslims. Go to the mosque just to witness what they do and how they live their daily lives
I actually wouldn't mind knowing some muslims - but have never lived in area with any obvious percentage of them, nor worked with one. I am generally very curious about everyone's beliefs. I wouldn't go to mosques, as I also turn down invitations to attend churches - while I'm curious about peoples beliefs, I find the practice of religion to be too rigid when it comes to questioning things - it appears to me that most tend to start with an end point, and then try to make their answer fit it. My by far preferred method is to find patterns in life that hold true, and only after identifying patterns, arrive at a conclusion - knowing yet still that it is unlikely to be a perfect conclusion.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2019 10:02 am
@livinglava,
Thanks for reading and posting a reply. I don't have to argue on same things over and over again. To be Jesus PBUH is a Prophet and Messiah and not God. We can agree on commonalities between Islam and Christianity and disagree on our differences with respect. As I said before, I am happy that at least you believe in God. Continue your search for truth and if you ask God to guide you to the truth, He will show you the right path.

Below is the translation of the opening Chapter in Quran which Muslims recite in every prayer, at least 17 times a day. Hope you benefit from this prayer one day:

Quote:
1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)
5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
6. Guide us to the Straight Way
7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger, nor of those who went astray. ( Quran, Chapter 1)
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2019 10:50 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
You aren't dealing with a number, but the concept of being. If a being is omnipotent and omnipresent, then it is in everything and everyone. Ie. it is a part of everything and everyone. So 1000 can be part of 1. One million can be part of one. And the reverse must also be able to be true.


Omnipresent and Omnipotent means that God is most powerful and He is present everywhere. That is nothing is hidden from Him. This does not mean that everything and everyone is God.

God is also eternal and knows everything. Jesus PBUH was not eternal, he was born and he died. Jesus PBUH did not have absolute knowledge of everything, how Jesus can be God when he is limited and in not eternal.

When we talk about the matter it can be said that existing beings are not other than of two kinds: either they are limited or unlimited and absolute.

Limited beings are those whose existence is having a limit and they do not possess the being and perfections of others and they can be negated from it. For example: the existence of man is limited because he is a man and that is why other things like plants and lifeless things are placed with him and they can be negated from him. It can be said: Man is not plant and lifeless matter and they are also not human. Since such beings do not possess existence in the position of their own being, they are needful and they have to take their existence from others. In such limited beings multiplicity, imagination and possibility of occurrence is present. As it is said (in plural form): Human beings, animals, plants and lifeless matters.

The second type is unlimited beings: Since such beings do not have limits and quantities; on the contrary they are absolute, pure and unlimited. Since they are unlimited and do not have any defect, they possess all the perfections and are needless from every aspect and free of need in their being. In this supposition, the existence of the greater and more free of need is not there that it should be needed. In such a being actually, there is no imagination of multiplicity. In front of a being that is unlimited, how can we imagine another being who is unlimited and which should be its partner in creating and controlling the universe? Because if the second supposed being also possesses all the perfections of the being and is a part of its being, and if it lacks some of the perfections of the first being, he would be one and the same.
And if he lacks some perfection he would be limited and needful and such a being cannot be considered as a partner of God. This leads us to conclude that all phenomena of the world are limited and needful and are related to Almighty God (Allah) and we only have a single unique and pure being and He is one and has no partner.

Quote:
I actually wouldn't mind knowing some Muslims - but have never lived in area with any obvious percentage of them, nor worked with one. I am generally very curious about everyone's beliefs. I wouldn't go to mosques, as I also turn down invitations to attend churches - while I'm curious about peoples beliefs, I find the practice of religion to be too rigid when it comes to questioning things - it appears to me that most tend to start with an end point, and then try to make their answer fit it. My by far preferred method is to find patterns in life that hold true, and only after identifying patterns, arrive at a conclusion - knowing yet still that it is unlikely to be a perfect conclusion.


Search for mosques in the area you live and I am sure you can find few near your location. I understand your POV, still I think it is better if you go to a mosque. Find the Imam (Muslim scholar) and ask him questions directly. In my experience Muslims normally are very comfortable in answering questions about their ideology and religion. It is very important to see them in person because we can talk about ideology all day long but if you don't see that in practice and if you don't see traits of that in practicing Muslims then we have nothing but a lip service. Islam is not about lip service, it is all about practically implementing teachings of Quran in our lives to better our moral values and to better the society around us.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2019 03:17 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
Omnipresent and Omnipotent means that God is most powerful and He is present everywhere. That is nothing is hidden from Him. This does not mean that everything and everyone is God
There is plenty of Christian debate on 'what is God / what constitutes God'. The concept of the trinity is even debated, but generally agreed upon. Try and tie one down on what the Holy Spirit is, and you'll generally get what I consider to be confused answers.

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God is also eternal and knows everything. Jesus PBUH was not eternal, he was born and he died. Jesus PBUH did not have absolute knowledge of everything, how Jesus can be God when he is limited and in not eternal.
Do you remember what I said about starting with an ending and then making your logic fit the ending? Both yourself, and Christianity could be accused of doing so here. You are looking at the question from the purely negative endpoint, and making your 'logic' fit it. There are possible answers to this question. Both spectrums of response are wrapped up in other questions related to what is God (from both Sides)

As a note, I use 'logic' with ' ' because there is no perfect logic in this discussion - only theology. As a further note - the theology doesn't particularly interest me, curiosity aside, and the bemusing matter of both sides thinking they are right.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2019 04:09 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
There is plenty of Christian debate on 'what is God / what constitutes God'. The concept of the trinity is even debated, but generally agreed upon. Try and tie one down on what the Holy Spirit is, and you'll generally get what I consider to be confused answers.


I have seen several debates on concept of Trinity and have not found a single one yet which is simple enough to believe. For me this is fundamental belief and if God of Ibrahim and Moses was one without Holy Spirit and Jesus then Why would Christian God change its nature. Secondly, Jesus PBUH himself was praying and it is quoted several times in Bible. Who was he praying to if he himself was God.

Quote:
Do you remember what I said about starting with an ending and then making your logic fit the ending? Both yourself, and Christianity could be accused of doing so here. You are looking at the question from the purely negative endpoint, and making your 'logic' fit it. There are possible answers to this question. Both spectrums of response are wrapped up in other questions related to what is God (from both Sides)

As a note, I use 'logic' with ' ' because there is no perfect logic in this discussion - only theology. As a further note - the theology doesn't particularly interest me, curiosity aside, and the bemusing matter of both sides thinking they are right.


I am not sure how can you conclude that. I did not have any ending in my mind when I wrote my previous post. I was just arguing for a common sense or logical point of view. Logically a creator has to eternal and shall not change its form. This is further verified when we read Bible and Quran. But Quran does not contradict when it says Allah is eternal and ever lasting but Bible does. Jesus was born and he died. Both Quran and Bible says that God is Just. Only Quran is consistent with that concept because it says that everyone is responsible for his/her own actions. Bible contradicts this concept by introducing concept of original sin, salvation and atonement etc.

When we talk about God whom no one is seen, it is not possible for human beings to describe God. We only know what God has told us about Himself. God has told some of His attributes to us in Quran. Please have a look at these and this will help to understand God. A link below has very good description of the attributes of God.

https://www.whyislam.org/allah/god/names-and-attributes-of-allah/

But before you read these attributes, I would like you to write down some attributes of God what you can think off and then compare that to what you find in Quran. A human mind can come up may be a dozen and half a dozen attributes of God but you will find that Quran has provided 99 attributes of God and it is humanely impossible to come up with those attributes. Interestingly enough God the Father, God the son and Holy Spirit are not among those.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2019 05:25 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
I have seen several debates on concept of Trinity and have not found a single one yet which is simple enough to believe. For me this is fundamental belief and if God of Ibrahim and Moses was one without Holy Spirit and Jesus then Why would Christian God change its nature. Jesus PBUH himself was praying and it is quoted several times in Bible. Who was he praying to if he himself was God.
That is the thing about belief is it not - we want to believe what we want to believe - what makes sense to us as a whole. Often, this is what we have been indoctrinated into from birth.

The Christian belief relating to God & Jesus makes fine sense if you were raised in it from birth. As no doubt does the Islamic belief in the wrongness of the Christian belief if you are raised in it from birth. The answer is, neither of them can be shown to be incorrect, or 'not make sense' if you choose to believe in them. It only doesn't make sense because you don't want it to make sense. And as I said - it's about theology, not logic.

Quote:
I am not sure how can you conclude that. I did not have any ending in my mind when I wrote my previous post.
In relation to God/The Trinity - it appears you have concluded that your religion is right (the end point), because you obviously have sufficient knowledge of the bible, and yet:
- your objections appear to be from a pre-defetermined non-acceptance
- you can't accept the concept of God is not concrete (ie. it must be what is described in the Quran. And that's fine if that's what you want to believe, but the point is you don't accept it from any other perspective)
- you can't accept that God can separate a part of himself for the purpose of redemption of mankind. This is purely a lack of acceptance (which is fine), rather than a problem, as you attempt to frame it.
- you have asked numerous questions, but they don't appear to be for the purpose of any form of understanding. There is no acceptance of things that relate to theology, rather than logic (and 'what is God' is probably 90% theology)
- it appears you think the 'reasoning' of the Christian religion must be wrong, and therefore you look only for what you perceive to be 'holes' rather than the sense of a whole.
- You attempt to use logic, as if it can be applied to a nebulous concept such as God, and call Christian beliefs out using this 'logic'. Where does such attempt stem from, if you don't have an end in mind that you are trying to make things fit into?

I don't say these things to attack you - but rather, you asked how I arrived at such a conclusion, and that is the explanation.

As a note - observation of apparent inconsistencies is a good thing. My reference to 'logic' was referring to your attempt to say that 3 cannot be 1 when it comes to God. That is a matter of theology, not logic.

And don't get me wrong - so many people start with an endpoint that it is sometimes hard to see when we ourselves do it.

Quote:
When we talk about God whom no one is seen, it is not possible for human beings to describe God. We only know what God has told us about Himself. God has told some of His attributes to us in Quran. Please have a look at these and this will help to understand God. A link below has very good description of the attributes of God.
I prefer, if God exists, that I obtain my view of who he/she/it is, what is right and wrong, and how to live, through the world that was created, and the patterns that show up time and again.

Exploring other peoples beliefs is part of identifying those patterns.
 

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