4
   

Can Atheists learn to speak Theist?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2019 01:47 pm
@livinglava,
You only think it's good information. Your problem is you don't know about Christianity itself. You've been spoon fed a load of nonsense and lack the intellectual curiosity to go any further.

Not only that you've allowed your fascist thinking to distort and demean what truth may be left.

You know nothing about Gnostic Christianity but won't even ask what it is. There's all this other stuff out there about Jesus, but you're not interested, because that would involve thinking.

izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2019 01:50 pm
@livinglava,
You remind me of a friend's mother. His father was a scientist who invented a cheap portable way of purifying dirty water. His mother was an evangelical Christian who completely trashed his life's work because she didn't see the point in saving lives if you weren't going to save their souls.

He left the evil bitch and his invention went on to save lives. He did good in the World, she sounds a lot like you.
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2019 02:12 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
praying to God puts you in a certain immediacy..


Or it may do so. Just as it may then bring about a certain intimacy with him/her/it/other.

Often times it goes this way...

(Courtesy of Nico and Vinz)
Praying to a God who won't talk back

0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2019 03:48 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

You only think it's good information. Your problem is you don't know about Christianity itself. You've been spoon fed a load of nonsense and lack the intellectual curiosity to go any further.

Not only that you've allowed your fascist thinking to distort and demean what truth may be left.

You know nothing about Gnostic Christianity but won't even ask what it is. There's all this other stuff out there about Jesus, but you're not interested, because that would involve thinking.

Everything you post is negative in some way.

If you want to spread some good news about Jesus you have from whatever source, heed Mark 16 and do so, but don't put others down because they have information from other sources:
Quote:

15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.…

My best assessment of you is that you are a satanist who seeks to use Christianity against Christians instead of spreading the good news of salvation. Everything you post is oriented toward negativity in some way. You just don't express a Christian spirit in your posts.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2019 03:56 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

By that logic, it is possible for someone who is truly atheist in their beliefs about reality to learn the language of religion(s) and understand the meanings therein without necessarily becoming convinced of the existence of a creator.

Exactly. I like reading Hesiod's Theogony. It doesn't mean I believe it.

livinglava wrote:
Doing so, however, would require atheists to bracket their interest in subverting theism and anything else derived from religious culture; so the question becomes whether there are any atheists who would ever be willing to put their opposition to religion aside in order to simply understand religion and communicate with believers in a way that respects what those believers understand and mean with the language and concepts they use, which are derived from religious culture.

I don't subvert or oppose theism. Merely, it isn't for me.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2019 04:05 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

An angel, for example, doesn't need to have wings or even exist in a dimensional way to be an agent of spiritual action. An angel can be a convergent of seemingly-disjunct occurrences that result in an effect. Many people can't understand things like this because they go beyond the level where you can visually identify entities as having contiguous bodies with volume/shape/etc.

You mean like Hesiod's Chaos, which is both a place and a personification of the place. He begot concepts such as Gaia, Tartarus (which figures into the Greek portion of the Bible) and Eros which are also personifications thereof.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2019 04:22 pm
@livinglava,
I have plenty of positive posts out there. I admit not many with you, but that's because of your far right agenda which you came at A2K up and running.

I wouldn't mind if you could argue your case, but you really can't. Most of your arguments are based on simplistic assumptions that everyone else has to accept. When people refuse to do that you get stroppy and fall back on more dogma.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2019 04:36 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I have plenty of positive posts out there. I admit not many with you, but that's because of your far right agenda which you came at A2K up and running.

I wouldn't mind if you could argue your case, but you really can't. Most of your arguments are based on simplistic assumptions that everyone else has to accept. When people refuse to do that you get stroppy and fall back on more dogma.

I actually came to A2K thinking it could be a good place to discuss science and other things, but I quickly found out that political and religious threads are the most active discussions, so that's what it has to be here.

You call me 'far right,' but to me 'far right' is used to describe things like nazism and the KKK, which are socialist/fascist movements, not movements that honor the principles of liberty, democracy, etc.

Sometimes I think the people who accuse others of being 'far right' are the fascists and accusation/ridicule by labeling others as 'far right' is part of their tool box on how to push/bully people around.

I don't know how long you think you're going to get away with fascism by justifying it as a response to labeling people as fascist/right-wing/etc. but at some point there is going to be an expectation of respectful political discourse and pushing people around is going to get you pushed back, or maybe just ignored.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2019 04:46 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

You mean like Hesiod's Chaos, which is both a place and a personification of the place. He begot concepts such as Gaia, Tartarus (which figures into the Greek portion of the Bible) and Eros which are also personifications thereof.

Are these things you truly believe in and/or worship? Or do you just 'like' them because you find them interesting or because they symbolize things that resonate with your social-political values?
vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2019 06:44 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Communicating good information is a good deed.
Even if you believe this to be true - it's not the intention of the passage, nor of the question that was asked of you. This type of avoidance is answer enough.

Quote:
Hating and/or getting annoyed at preachers is the same basic reaction that happens to people who hate and get annoyed learning math.
Not at all. Maths is pure logic. Many Preachers say many things that don't fully engage their logic faculties - with those type of preachers avoiding certain facts in favour of an end outcome that is already thought to be true. Teaching maths is not the same thing.

And while many atheists actively oppose religion, many don't - so to state the 'whole' (or either preachers or atheists) as the truth in either of the above examples is deceptive, and not the truth.

Nor is it correct that Atheists can't understand the language of religion. Max gave a perfect example, and many others have experienced similar. Leaving organised religion doesn't mean that people can't have spiritual experiences - even among atheists (although you are correct that they tend to disparage such more). I don't think Carl Jung followed any religion, but he was definitely spiritual. Your belief that you can't understand unless you fully believe is wrong.

As for the power of prayer, those who have studied the subconscious, talk about using an alpha state to access/train the subconscious (examples of alpha state include hypnosis & meditation), and prayer falls smack into the definition of an Alpha State exercise. So science doesn't disbelieve in the power of prayer - it supports it.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2019 07:32 pm
@izzythepush,
Its one thing that has always stuck me, too.

Never met him, I am Christian, also.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2019 09:04 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

You mean like Hesiod's Chaos, which is both a place and a personification of the place. He begot concepts such as Gaia, Tartarus (which figures into the Greek portion of the Bible) and Eros which are also personifications thereof.

Are these things you truly believe in and/or worship? Or do you just 'like' them because you find them interesting or because they symbolize things that resonate with your social-political values?

This idea of convergence of seemingly-disjunct occurrences that result in an effect, as exemplified by Hesiod's Theogony, is interesting. It's an insight into the mythopoeic mind. Belief is unnecessary.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2019 12:45 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Just read this, it reminded me of LL.

Quote:
A US interracial couple was turned away by a wedding venue because the owner said their union went against her Christian beliefs, video shows.

The footage was filmed at Boone's Camp Event Hall in Booneville, Mississippi, by the groom's sister who met the woman about the rejection.

During the exchange the owner says the decision was because we "don't do gay weddings or mixed race".

The owner apologised in a now-deleted Facebook post.

The video was first reported by website Deep South Voice, and quickly went viral on social media.

LaKambria Welch said her brother and his partner were first told in an email the venue was not prepared to host the event. So Ms Welch went down in person to find out more.

"First of all, we don't do gay weddings or mixed race," says a woman in a grey shirt, identified as the venue's owner by US media.

Asked why not, she replied: "Because of our Christian race, I mean our Christian beliefs," adding: "We just don't participate. We just choose not to."


When asked what passage of the Bible informs that belief, the owner adds: "I don't want to argue my faith."


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49571207
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2019 12:54 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:


You call me 'far right,' but to me 'far right' is used to describe things like nazism and the KKK, which are socialist/fascist movements, not movements that honor the principles of liberty, democracy, etc.


You really are poorly educated/indoctrinated. You are far right like The Nazis and the KKK. And you have no concept of what Socialism is.

Socialism gave us the NHS which means that poor children are given the treatment they need instead of letting them die from neglect like you do in America.

How does allowing children to die unnecessarily honour liberty and democracy? At the same time you can explain what is so democratic about allowing big business to add 250+ carcinogenic food additives to your children's diet, not to mention bleach.

Socialism lifts people out of poverty and squallor, it gives them dignity, decent housing, healthcare and a good education. That's why Jesus, and all true Christians, are Socialist.

vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2019 03:13 am
@izzythepush,
The barley loaves and fish?
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2019 04:11 am
@vikorr,
Well it's certainly not capitalism, he didn't sell them off for a profit.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2019 05:08 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

You really are poorly educated/indoctrinated. You are far right like The Nazis and the KKK. And you have no concept of what Socialism is.

Nazis and KKK believe in the use of aggressive violence to push people into subjugation despite their better judgment. They don't just believe in using such force in times of emergency but for the sake of achieving regular order in everyday life. When you value liberty and democracy, you don't order/coerce people around just because it is convenient. You prioritize communication and try to implore people, reason with them, etc. not manipulate and bully them into compliance and conformity.

Quote:
Socialism gave us the NHS which means that poor children are given the treatment they need instead of letting them die from neglect like you do in America.

Parents are responsible for their children. They are not the collective responsibility of the state. There are many problems in the US, but a lack of socialism is not one of them. Socialism becomes necessary when you finally give up on liberty, but the mere fact that you resort to socialism in lieu of achieving a liberty/democracy-based society is failure in itself.

Quote:
How does allowing children to die unnecessarily honour liberty and democracy? At the same time you can explain what is so democratic about allowing big business to add 250+ carcinogenic food additives to your children's diet, not to mention bleach.

Liberty is the principle that people can be responsible enough to self-govern. When parents fail to properly care for children, or when people knowingly poison food; they have failed to steward their freedom responsibly. Even if stronger central control (socialism) is implemented in some ways (which it also in in the US), it is not an ideal form of government but rather a temporary stop-gap measure that should transition to people governing themselves by their own liberty as soon as they can be trusted again to do so.

If you keep people in a permanent nanny-state, their capacity for independent judgment/action and responsible self-governance will continue to atrophy as all their development will be oriented toward successfully interacting with governing authorities.

Quote:
Socialism lifts people out of poverty and squallor, it gives them dignity, decent housing, healthcare and a good education. That's why Jesus, and all true Christians, are Socialist.

Anything that can be achieved with socialism (social control) can be achieved by individuals acting independently under guidance of their own personal liberty. The challenge is to figure out who is exploiting freedom and getting them to stop.

Just as freedom can be abused, so can social control. In fact, the abuses that happen within a free society are generally due to people taking advantage of freedom as an opportunity to exercise power/control in an abusive way. That is why governmental control is a power/control response to others abusing power. In short, people can provoke government into exercising greater control/power by shirking the responsibility to self-govern properly, but that is an escalation of dysfunction, not an improvement.

Why can't you see that individuals taking responsibility to use their freedom responsibly at the most fundamental level is a more effective/efficient form of government than trying to control people externally?
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2019 05:15 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Parents are responsible for their children. They are not the collective responsibility of the state.


That's a very callous inhumane attitude to take.

The problem with your religion is it's immoral, unethical and selfish.

It's not Christianity.

It's not Atheists that are the problem, it's pseudo Christians like yourself.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2019 05:38 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Parents are responsible for their children. They are not the collective responsibility of the state.


That's a very callous inhumane attitude to take.

On the contrary. It is callous and inhumane for parents to trigger state spending by neglecting and abusing their children. It is not that hard to care for children and when you try to force government to implement policies by abusing/exploiting them, you are making them into pawns in a political game.

Quote:
The problem with your religion is it's immoral, unethical and selfish.

Humans are naturally sinful. That is a fundamental confession in Christianity. Once you accept that humans are imperfect sinners, you can begin the hard uphill struggle to accept forgiveness and reform.

Quote:
It's not Atheists that are the problem, it's pseudo Christians like yourself.

Christianity is social, just not socialist. Take the following quote from Matthew 18, for example:
Quote:

A Brother Who Sins

15If your brother sins against you,c go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’d 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. 20For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.”

Jesus says to go talk to sinners and try to get them to see the light, but He also leaves room for them to refuse. He does not say to tax them and thus force them into paying you to act on their behalf.

In socialism, the government stimulates an economy that fails to transcend sin. What Christians are supposed to do is speak to sin in an attempt to implore people to reform. We are supposed to forgive sin but also reprove it.

vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2019 05:58 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
Humans are naturally sinful. That is a fundamental confession in Christianity. Once you accept that humans are imperfect sinners, you can begin the hard uphill struggle to accept forgiveness and reform.
Neither God, nor forgiveness is necessary to the desire, or work, to better oneself (in any form, whether morally, emotionally, spiritually, knowledge, or skillwise). Accepting that we as humans have flaws and are far from perfect is a fine start to the journey to better oneself.
 

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