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Can Atheists learn to speak Theist?

 
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2019 05:37 pm
@vikorr,
You are right that most people want to belive what they are brought up with. But does not our conciousness continuesly pushes us to find the truth? The curousity to find the truth is built in us. This is the reason we are debating.

And yes I am 100% convinced that Islam is the right religion but this conviction is not blind faith. I have come to this conclusion after studying other religions for many years. I have studied OT and NT not to debate with anyone but for myself. I did not want to follow Islam blindly. I wanted to see what other religions say and do they make sense. If they would have made any sense, I would have accepted it. It is matter of my salvation. I came in this world alone with empty hands and will go into my grave alone. I dont want to follow something which is wrong just because my forefather believed in it to be true. In others world, I am a Muslim my choice not by birth.

You can get understanding of God from His creation as well. Quran also invites us to reflect on what is around us.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2019 07:00 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
But does not our conciousness continuesly pushes us to find the truth?
I would say a truth, rather than the truth.

Religion attempts to explain our existence, or why the world works the way it does.

If you look at both religions, Islam and Christianity - there are a number of beliefs that just require acceptance. Their truth cannot be proven - ie. the existence of God, that Jesus was God, that Mohammed was the messenger of God, etc. You can attempt to 'prove' these things, but it is just theology - joining the dots, and from there you come to a belief that they are truth. But the starting point is usually acceptance (often as a child, or often for social reasons). From acceptance of different ideas, you can arrive at different 'paths' of theology to what you believe to be the truth. Is either true? I would say they are different theologies grown out of an acceptance of different 'base beliefs'

From acceptance, both religions then 'join the dots' which equates to theology. The very start is the 'problem' - the beliefs that require acceptance of certain pretexts. They are not provable, and require a level of acceptance if you are to believe in them. From there, you can 'see' how they match up with the world, and thereby find a truth.

Now what happens when the joining of the dots conflicts with the 'truth' in the patterns we see out in the world? My answer is that I will always believe what I see in the patterns of the world first.

Quote:
If they would have made any sense, I would have accepted it...I am a Muslim my choice not by birth"
I have no doubt that you believe this when you say it.

A reply to this would unfortunately require you come to a fairly in-depth understanding of:
- the subconscious
- the sympathetic system (as relates to how others emotions affect us, why mob mentallities exist, why we are more comfortable doing things we are uncomfortable with in a group etc)
- why our mind filters information we are uncomfortable, and the different ways we reconcile those things that cause us discomfort

There were times in my life when I was certain of some things. These days, the best I will say is that there are things I use as a guide through life that have proven reliable - to me.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 08:00 am
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

Thanks for reading and posting a reply. I don't have to argue on same things over and over again. To be Jesus PBUH is a Prophet and Messiah and not God. We can agree on commonalities between Islam and Christianity and disagree on our differences with respect. As I said before, I am happy that at least you believe in God. Continue your search for truth and if you ask God to guide you to the truth, He will show you the right path.

Below is the translation of the opening Chapter in Quran which Muslims recite in every prayer, at least 17 times a day. Hope you benefit from this prayer one day:

Quote:
1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)
5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
6. Guide us to the Straight Way
7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger, nor of those who went astray. ( Quran, Chapter 1)


Thank you for posting this prayer.

As for Jesus being (a form of) God or not, I don't mean to drag you into further discussion if you want to avoid it, but I am curious what your perspective on Holy Spirit is. Do you believe that God's Holy Spirit permeates the universe? Imo, in order to submit to God's will, you have to have access to His spirit and submit to it. Obviously the creation has fallen to sin in many ways, but at the same time the righteous/true path is available to those who earnestly seek it. So that to me means that Holy Spirit is available for us to seek/find.
Quote:

Luke 17
20When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

So, if you think in terms of the kingdom of God being in our midst in the form of Holy Spirit, which we can submit to and thus seek salvation from the sin that pulls us downward in this world, then you could say that we come into harmony with God when we submit to His Holy Spirit.

Yet to the extent that we are not fully cleansed/immune of sin yet, we cannot pretend that we or anyone else is equal to God. By accepting Jesus and entering into His resurrected body/spirit, however, we put aside our pride and seek God's guidance 'in Jesus' name.' I hope you can see how allowing Christ's crucifixion to suffice for our own sins allows us to better submit to God, i.e. because we can be delivered from the pride of atonement and serving God in our own name. We are sinners, but the sacrifice of Jesus makes our own death-by-sin meaningless, so all we can do is accept grace/salvation and submit to Holy Spirit with the life/grace that we have by God's mercy and forgiveness for sinners despite the world's (attempted) destruction of Holy Spirit as embodied in Jesus.

Spirit, unlike the body, has eternal life and the resurrection of Jesus clarifies this at the material level, even though the material resurrection of Jesus' body really just serves as a miracle to reinforce His teaching that we must be reborn of spirit in order to realize salvation and eternal life. The flesh is a sinful aspect of this world, but the spirit that resides within it is eternal and capable of accepting its salvation and joining with God instead of maintaining enmity against Him in sin.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2019 08:18 am
@vikorr,
That's the difference between Islam and Christianity. Starting point is not acceptance. As I have said in several other posts of mine, Quran is a living miracle. How Quran is a living miracle, please read see link below for my post on another form where I have attempted to prove that Islam is the only true religion.

https://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134353814-living-miracle-quran-proof-islam-true-religion.html#post3016354

Watch all the videos for which I have provided links within the same post and you will realize why in Islam belief is not blind. It starts of using our intellect to analyze Quran with the established scintific facts which are stated in Quran over 1400 years ago.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2019 10:31 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
As for Jesus being (a form of) God or not, I don't mean to drag you into further discussion if you want to avoid it, but I am curious what your perspective on Holy Spirit is. Do you believe that God's Holy Spirit permeates the universe? Imo, in order to submit to God's will, you have to have access to His spirit and submit to it. Obviously the creation has fallen to sin in many ways, but at the same time the righteous/true path is available to those who earnestly seek it. So that to me means that Holy Spirit is available for us to seek/find.


This is another thing misunderstood by Christians. They have misunderstood miracles given to Jesus (Esa) PBUH and have taken him as God. They have misunderstood the Holy Spirit as part of God.

Quran has mentioned "the Holy Spirit" at various places and it is always referred as the arch angel Gabriel. Islam tells us that there are certain angels who have been assigned specific jobs. For example, an angel has been assigned to take out the soul when a person's time is over in this world. This angel is called Angel Azrael. The job assigned to arch angel Gabriel is to convey the message of God to Prophets. Since this angel brings guidance form God to Prophets for humanity, it is referred to as Ruh Al Quds " The Holy Spirit" because this angel is responsible to bring down Divine guidance for our souls.

As I have said before Islam is as old as humanity is. All Prophets were Muslims because they submitted to the Will of God and that is what Islam means. Quran came down to correct the human corruptions in Divine guidance and is preserved now as there is no more prophet to come after Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

Dots are very easy to connect if you read OT and NT. OT always referred to as one God and has so much emphasis on Divine law, in NT God all of a sudden God takes triune nature and Divine law is thrown out of the window to be replaced with love only. Quran comes and revived what has been corrupted. God is one just like it was always preached by all prophets and God knows what laws are best for human beings and hence you will find a very complete way of life in Islam.

There are details for every little thing you can imagine such as how to wash your body when one have intimacy with his/her spouse, laws about divorce, how to pray and when to pray, how to dress for men and women, what to read when one goes to rest room, how to wash when one go to rest room, what to read when one comes out of rest room, what to read when one goes to sleep, what to read when one gets up, what to read when one drives a car, what to read when one leaves his/her house etc. You get the idea what I want to say. Islam is complete code of life where as in Christianity there is no law except love and you know that it is unrealistic. You can't run your own home with love alone. Sometimes we need to be strict to teach our kids some valuable lessons. In our society, we have to punish those who commit crime, you can't solve world problems with love alone. Hence, you will see Islam has described punishments for those who spread evil in the society.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2019 03:32 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

This is another thing misunderstood by Christians. They have misunderstood miracles given to Jesus (Esa) PBUH and have taken him as God. They have misunderstood the Holy Spirit as part of God.

Why is it important to define things as being 'part of' God or not? If we are to submit to and honor God's will, we have to receive it. How does it help us to debate over whether Holy Spirit is part of God or not?

Quote:
Quran has mentioned "the Holy Spirit" at various places and it is always referred as the arch angel Gabriel. Islam tells us that there are certain angels who have been assigned specific jobs. For example, an angel has been assigned to take out the soul when a person's time is over in this world. This angel is called Angel Azrael. The job assigned to arch angel Gabriel is to convey the message of God to Prophets. Since this angel brings guidance form God to Prophets for humanity, it is referred to as Ruh Al Quds " The Holy Spirit" because this angel is responsible to bring down Divine guidance for our souls.

Ok, but why is it important to use this information to debate about Holy Spirit?

Quote:
As I have said before Islam is as old as humanity is. All Prophets were Muslims because they submitted to the Will of God and that is what Islam means. Quran came down to correct the human corruptions in Divine guidance and is preserved now as there is no more prophet to come after Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

The fact that the universe is unified and not fragmented, and thus that there is a single God, is a universal message; as is the calling to submit to His will instead of opposing Him. I think the idea that Mohammad is "the last prophet" could be a misunderstanding based on the fact that the English words, 'last,' and 'latest,' are a single word in Arabic. Why would you assume that no one can prophecy after Mohammad? Doesn't prophecy just refer to interpreting God's will for others?

Quote:
Dots are very easy to connect if you read OT and NT. OT always referred to as one God and has so much emphasis on Divine law, in NT God all of a sudden God takes triune nature and Divine law is thrown out of the window to be replaced with love only. Quran comes and revived what has been corrupted. God is one just like it was always preached by all prophets and God knows what laws are best for human beings and hence you will find a very complete way of life in Islam.

I don't think divine law is 'thrown out the window.' I think forgiveness of sin becomes a basis for saving and redeeming sinners, in lieu of judgment. Sinners are supposed to confess and repent for sin, and thus receive deliverance and gradual sanctification. Sanctifying sinners with merciful discipline is different from judging them for sin, which doesn't punish for discipline/redemption but to harm the sinner in proportion to the harm caused by their sin.

I think there is confusion about the relationship between eye-for-an-eye punishment and forgiveness in order to discipline. The NT recognizes both when it says, "for the wages of sin are death but . . . " It is a similar idea to the OT where it says that if a slave dies as a result of punishment by his or her owner, the owner should be punished; but not if the slave doesn't die. This is a harsh-sounding a thus controversial verse today, but what it essentially means is that the purpose of discipline should be to correct misbehavior and not to harm/destroy the sinner out of anger or retribution. Discipline, in other words, should be done with love/benevolence, not hate/malice.

Quote:
There are details for every little thing you can imagine such as how to wash your body when one have intimacy with his/her spouse, laws about divorce, how to pray and when to pray, how to dress for men and women, what to read when one goes to rest room, how to wash when one go to rest room, what to read when one comes out of rest room, what to read when one goes to sleep, what to read when one gets up, what to read when one drives a car, what to read when one leaves his/her house etc.

How can the Quran mention driving a car when cars weren't invented yet when it was written?

Quote:
You get the idea what I want to say. Islam is complete code of life where as in Christianity there is no law except love and you know that it is unrealistic.

If people earnestly seek what is good and right, they will find it and as their awareness of sin grows, they will confess and repent more before God, and deliverance from sin and sanctification will come gradually as a result. Sanctification can be a multi-generational process. Think about how many generations of forgiveness came before every person so that they can have the opportunity to make right choices now. Think about how many people even today are still sinning and their children will inherit from them both knowledge of salvation and propensities to sin. Sanctification of this world is an ongoing process. We can pray, "thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven," and in some ways it happens immediately, but in others it will take until the end of time.

Quote:

You can't run your own home with love alone. Sometimes we need to be strict to teach our kids some valuable lessons. In our society, we have to punish those who commit crime, you can't solve world problems with love alone. Hence, you will see Islam has described punishments for those who spread evil in the society.

This debate is always going on, and it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding that love and discipline are in conflict with each other. It is because there are times, especially in childhood, when we don't see the light of discipline and we feel we are just being punished cruelly for no good reason. Often, children (and adults) are short-sighted and refuse to see/understand that discipline is ultimately for their own good.

They say, for example, that disciplining industrial culture to achieve climate reform and sustainability of planetary systems is just punishment, but when they see the light that we have to discipline ourselves to achieve ways of living that are permanently sustainable for future generations, then sacrifice is no longer a punishment but rather a tool/means for achieving what's right and good. It's just the same as when you grow mature enough to realize you have to sacrifice certain pleasures and desires to live a healthy and productive life. At first, the sacrifices you demand from children seem like punishment, but later they realize they had to learn to eat right, do chores, etc. and it no longer feels harmful to them, because it's not; they just experienced it as such because of laziness, etc.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2019 04:23 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Why is it important to define things as being 'part of' God or not? If we are to submit to and honor God's will, we have to receive it. How does it help us to debate over whether Holy Spirit is part of God or not?

This is very important, go back to first commandment. Worship only one God and don't associate anyone with Him. God is absolute one and when one associates partners with Him, it is not monotheism anymore. That greatest sin a human being can do is to associate partners with God.

Quote:
Ok, but why is it important to use this information to debate about Holy Spirit?


You probably got the answer in my response above. All I was trying of explain that Holy Spirit is an arch angel and is creation of God. Associating anyone with God is the greatest sin.

Quote:
The fact that the universe is unified and not fragmented, and thus that there is a single God, is a universal message; as is the calling to submit to His will instead of opposing Him. I think the idea that Mohammad is "the last prophet" could be a misunderstanding based on the fact that the English words, 'last,' and 'latest,' are a single word in Arabic. Why would you assume that no one can prophecy after Mohammad? Doesn't prophecy just refer to interpreting God's will for others?


Arabic is a very rich language. The Arabic word for latest is not the same used for last. Anyways Quran says:

Quote:
“Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.” (33:40)


Since Quran is the final word of Allah, I believe this to be true. After Muhammad PBUH there are many who claimed to be prophet and no one knows about them. Even a few who are known have very few followers. Truth will prevail and it is evident by increasing number of Muslims with every day.

Quote:
How can the Quran mention driving a car when cars weren't invented yet when it was written?


Thats the beauty of a universal message for times is not it? You missed my point that Islam teaches how to do each and every aspect of life and there s no other religion who describes how to do our day to day tasks in such depth.
To answer your question, the supplication is for riding any thing. At the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH, people used to ride horses and camels and in our time its cars and airplanes. Same supplication is made regardless of what we ride. This supplication is part of Quran and translation is below:

Quote:
All praise be to Allah, Glory be to Allah who has put this (vehicle or horse or camel or air plane etc.) under our control though we were unable to control it. Surely, to our Sustainer are we to return. [Quran 43:13-14]


I read your responses to my other comments and I disagree with those for the reason I already gave before in my previous posts. It does not make sense to me that God chnaged its nature. Jewish people believe in the same God as Muslim do, Christians have associated partners with God and still claim to believe in one God. It also does not make any sense to me that God will create human being who are so complex and will not tell them how to live their lives and how to do their daily tasks. I have read other religions and did not find a complete way of life other than in Islam. I mentioned few things before which were very small on scale and probably have very little impact on society but does make an individual better. But Islam does not focus on an individual only, it's focus in mainly on a peaceful society. It forbids many thing which are considered right and legal in today's age. For example, interest system is strictly forbiden in Islam. It is one of the major sin because it promotes a society where rich becomes more rich and poor become more poor. It probably will not make sense to one who is used to banking system but let me explain. When someone like me buys a house, I have to buy the house by taking mortgage from the bank. I am taking the risk by borrowing that money on interest and when economy crashes, I will loose my job and could not pay my installments. Banks will kick me out of my house and sell same house to someone else regardless of how much installments I have already made. Bank was rich and got more rich, and I can be on the road because of this interest based system. This is evil and has destroyed many families. Worlds wealth only belongs to probably top 100 wealthy people and rest of us are victims of interest based system. Islam says that if I have a bright idea about a business and I need money then I should go and discuss with rich people. If they agree with my idea then we sit together and write a contract. Both parties shall agree that they will share profit and loss. Anyways, I can't write down whole Islamic finiancial system here but you get the idea. Similary the punishments for murder, adultry and other crimes are part of Islamic Justice system and are much more effective than our criminal justice system. Search and see if those make sense.
On the other hand in Christianity, I dont find anything on social problems and its solutions. There is absolutely nothing. Even for individual level, there is nothing other than love your neighbor thing. There are no divorce and inhertiance laws. Most Christians think that they can't divorce their spouses but its okay to have extra marital affairs. Its not natural. People can have disagreements and if they do have disagreements then it is better to get divorce and marry someone else instead of cheating each other.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2019 05:00 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
That's the difference between Islam and Christianity. Starting point is not acceptance
I rather disagree. I see acceptance of certain things required in both religions. How do you know that Mohammed was the prophet of God? In other words - how do you know that he received the message, and the message he received was as the messenger, and he didn't just make it up? I don't ask this to be offensive - I ask this because you believe there is no acceptance involved. Further, does not the requirement to be fulfilled, to qualify a person as be Muslim involve a proclamation (ie acceptance) that there is but one God, and that Mohammed is the prophet of God (if I remember right). The theology can come later, can it not.

As a note - Christians would argue that the starting point isn't acceptance either, but if you ask enough questions about the very base beliefs, both religions require acceptance of certain matters, before the theology develops further.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2019 05:14 pm
@vikorr,
I gave you a link in my previous post, look at that to find more detailed answer. I read Quran and things mentioned in Quran 100% agree with established scientific facts. It was impossible for prophet Muhammad PBUH to know the facts which we know now unless he was receiving the message from God. That’s why I keep saying that Quran is a living miracle.

Yes one becomes Muslim by proclaiming that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad PBUH is His last messenger. But it is not just proclaiming that, it is to believe in it and act on act. So if someone has not believed in that statement, verbal proclamation will not mean anything.

We can disagree, I have nothing to loose my friend.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2019 05:20 pm
@vikorr,
There is also acceptance of God as a concept. An Aetheist believes we came to be through evolution, and doesn't see evidence of a God. They believe in science, and what they can see. They don't accept the premise of a God, and so see no 'joining of the dots' to 'prove' that a God exists. Further, they see the theology of Islam and Christianity, and what they perceive is hypocrisy / inconsistency of beliefs, and a clash with science, and go 'see, these things prove that God does not exist'.

That is to point out that without the base acceptance of God, what they 'see' varies greatly to what a religious person, who accepts the concept of God, sees.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2019 05:23 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Thank you. I read it. It is a wonderful example of beliefs that have brought you joy / peace. That said, it does not invalidate what I said. For you perhaps it may invalidate what I said, but that is for you personally.

However, if you look from the outside, without acceptance, you don't see those things. I personally thought, from my own readings of the Quran, that some of it was very powerful, very poetic...and other parts I found to be ugly (as I mentioned, it's berating of other religions, and calling Muslims winners and all else losers, I find to be quite ugly)...to me that doesn't translate to Mohammed being the messenger of God.

This is the thing about acceptance.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2019 06:13 pm
@vikorr,
Prophet should bring people to one message, if you think prophet should say that Christians, Jews and Muslims are all the same then what’s the point of revealing Quran?

Islam does not start with blind acceptance even though you insist it does but that’s your POV. It appeared to me you unconsciously accept Christianity even though you reject it on the surface because there are things which don’t make sense to you but may be you are emotionally close to Christianity because your forefathers had been Christians. I am just stating my observation and it is quite possible that those are wrong.

It was nice talking to you and I think it is time to say that we can agree to disagree respectfully.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2019 06:58 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
Prophet should bring people to one message, if you think prophet should say that Christians, Jews and Muslims are all the same then what’s the point of revealing Quran?
Ah, again, you accept that the events during Mohammed's life were the revealing of the Quran (by God) as the basis for your question. As I mentioned with this pattern - an acceptance first, then theology.

It's like asking 'if you don't accept Jesus' sacrifice, then what was the point of Jesus dying on the cross for man's sins?' You don't accept that Jesus was God, so this question doesn't hold much meaning to you. But you accept Mohammed as the messenger of God and the revealing of the Quran, so your question has meaning to you.

Quote:
Islam does not start with blind acceptance even though you insist it does but that’s your POV.
Blind acceptance? Those are your words, not mine. I said simply, acceptance, which is not a bad thing - unlike the term 'blind acceptance'.

Quote:
It was nice talking to you and I think it is time to say that we can agree to disagree respectfully.
That's how disagreement should be done wherever possible. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 1 Oct, 2019 04:06 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

This is very important, go back to first commandment. Worship only one God and don't associate anyone with Him. God is absolute one and when one associates partners with Him, it is not monotheism anymore. That greatest sin a human being can do is to associate partners with God.

Can you explain exactly what this commandment means and why? I think it could be easily misinterpreted to demonize things it was not intended to put into question.

Quote:

You probably got the answer in my response above. All I was trying of explain that Holy Spirit is an arch angel and is creation of God. Associating anyone with God is the greatest sin.

Why? God is the source of all creation. All the angels and everything is created by and through God, so everything is associated with Him. I think the problem is confusing/distinguishing good and evil. Going back to Genesis, the First Day, God first created light and then saw that it was good, and then separated it from the darkness:
Quote:

…3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4And seeing that the light was good, God separated the light from the darkness.



Quote:
Arabic is a very rich language. The Arabic word for latest is not the same used for last. Anyways Quran says:

Quote:
“Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.” (33:40)

I read somewhere that 'last' and 'latest' are the same word in Arabic, but that may have been a false source.

Quote:
Since Quran is the final word of Allah, I believe this to be true. After Muhammad PBUH there are many who claimed to be prophet and no one knows about them. Even a few who are known have very few followers. Truth will prevail and it is evident by increasing number of Muslims with every day.

Idk. I love the beginning of the book of John:
Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

And John 8:
Quote:
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. The One who glorifies Me is My Father, of whom you say ‘He is our God.’ 55You do not know Him, but I know Him. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word. 56Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see My day. He saw it and was glad.”

57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”

58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

These puzzling statements from the NT don't make sense directly, but yet they contain truth. I think they prove that Holy Spirit works in practice and reveals truth to all who earnestly seek. That is what I think Jesus was trying to teach by saying, "before Abraham was I am," but maybe you have a better interpretation to explain?

Quote:

To answer your question, the supplication is for riding any thing. At the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH, people used to ride horses and camels and in our time its cars and airplanes. Same supplication is made regardless of what we ride. This supplication is part of Quran and translation is below:

Quote:
All praise be to Allah, Glory be to Allah who has put this (vehicle or horse or camel or air plane etc.) under our control though we were unable to control it. Surely, to our Sustainer are we to return. [Quran 43:13-14]

Some people interpret references to 'vehicle' to refer to the body as the vehicle of the soul/spirit. How do you know when you are interpreting scripture correctly or incorrectly except through Holy Spirit, and even then, how can you know when you have been misled to believe revelation comes from Holy Spirit when it doesn't, except through Holy Spirit?

Quote:
I read your responses to my other comments and I disagree with those for the reason I already gave before in my previous posts. It does not make sense to me that God chnaged its nature. Jewish people believe in the same God as Muslim do, Christians have associated partners with God and still claim to believe in one God. It also does not make any sense to me that God will create human being who are so complex and will not tell them how to live their lives and how to do their daily tasks.

Scripture gives many examples of how God's message can be twisted to mislead. The serpent is the first example. An example I particularly like comes when Nicodemus asks Jesus how a person can be born again except by returning to his mother's womb. There was also conflict about whether to have Saturday or Sunday as Sabbath, but imo that conflict reveals that the meaning of resting on the seventh day isn't specifically to rest on the seventh day of the week, but rather to teach that rest is needed for humans and nature to heal and be restored. It is easy to take universal messages and apply them in ways that twist and pervert their true meaning. It happens all the time on the internet and elsewhere.

Quote:
I have read other religions and did not find a complete way of life other than in Islam. I mentioned few things before which were very small on scale and probably have very little impact on society but does make an individual better. But Islam does not focus on an individual only, it's focus in mainly on a peaceful society. It forbids many thing which are considered right and legal in today's age. For example, interest system is strictly forbiden in Islam. It is one of the major sin because it promotes a society where rich becomes more rich and poor become more poor. It probably will not make sense to one who is used to banking system but let me explain. When someone like me buys a house, I have to buy the house by taking mortgage from the bank. I am taking the risk by borrowing that money on interest and when economy crashes, I will loose my job and could not pay my installments. Banks will kick me out of my house and sell same house to someone else regardless of how much installments I have already made. Bank was rich and got more rich, and I can be on the road because of this interest based system. This is evil and has destroyed many families.

Ideally, you could lend money without interest and no one would take advantage of it; but in practice there are people who would abuse money if they didn't have to pay it back. Probably best not to lend money at all, with or without interest; but then how do you help people who run out of money? Just give them what they need without requiring anything of them in return? It is a difficult question.

Quote:
Worlds wealth only belongs to probably top 100 wealthy people and rest of us are victims of interest based system. Islam says that if I have a bright idea about a business and I need money then I should go and discuss with rich people. If they agree with my idea then we sit together and write a contract. Both parties shall agree that they will share profit and loss.

Yes, ideally that would work; but it requires honest people who aren't trying to exploit each other. Many business strategies and products are meant to undermine more efficient products because there is more money to be made in selling things that break down sooner than in building better products more efficiently that cost less and last longer. Until people realize that the end goal is to live well as independently of money as possible, there will be people who undermine independence in order to manipulate people into helping them make more money, even when they could prosper better by creating products and ways of life that require less money.

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Anyways, I can't write down whole Islamic finiancial system here but you get the idea. Similary the punishments for murder, adultry and other crimes are part of Islamic Justice system and are much more effective than our criminal justice system. Search and see if those make sense.
On the other hand in Christianity, I dont find anything on social problems and its solutions. There is absolutely nothing. Even for individual level, there is nothing other than love your neighbor thing.

If you watch Christian TV, there are many programs explaining how the US republic was founded on Christian principles. The very notion that people can rule themselves without submitting to royal authority is predicated on faith in Holy Spirit to help people guide themselves without falling to evil. Early visitors to the US were surprised to find out that the people associated freedom not with misbehavior but with righteousness, because we all know that immature people abuse freedom to get away with indulgences and sins they would be disciplined for in a more authoritarian system.

Still, the principle of liberty doesn' t mean laws are not made and enforced against crimes. The point is that our ultimate goal should be achieving self-governance, not that people won't fail at self-governance and thus require correction to set them straight.

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There are no divorce and inhertiance laws. Most Christians think that they can't divorce their spouses but its okay to have extra marital affairs. Its not natural. People can have disagreements and if they do have disagreements then it is better to get divorce and marry someone else instead of cheating each other.

You can't assume anything about 'most Christians,' because we are all sinners at different stages of awareness. The only thing that all (true) Christians have in common is that we accept that we are sinners by nature and that our sins are too great to be redeemed by our own efforts and so we require God's forgiveness and salvation. Sanctification doesn't happen immediately, however, so you will hear Christians say humbly that they/we are "works in progress," meaning God is working with us to help us improve even though we haven't reached heaven yet.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 12:19 pm
@livinglava,
Hello my friend and sorry for late replies. I did not get free time to read the posts on this forum.


So many questions and I will try to post multiple replies to each question so that we only discuss most relevant stuff. It helps sometimes to discuss one issue at a time.

Livinglava Wrote:
Quote:
Idk. I love the beginning of the book of John:
Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

And John 8:
Quote:
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. The One who glorifies Me is My Father, of whom you say ‘He is our God.’ 55You do not know Him, but I know Him. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word. 56Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see My day. He saw it and was glad.”

57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”

58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

These puzzling statements from the NT don't make sense directly, but yet they contain truth. I think they prove that Holy Spirit works in practice and reveals truth to all who earnestly seek. That is what I think Jesus was trying to teach by saying, "before Abraham was I am," but maybe you have a better interpretation to explain?


Jesus is identified in the Holy Qur’an as a “Word” from Allah. Surah 3:45 reads:

Quote:
Behold! the angels said:
“O Mary! Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be the Messiah, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah” (Quran 3:45).


In biblical contrast, John 1:1 reads:
Quote:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”


Christian exegesis on this point is that Jesus is the Word of God, which means the logos—the Greek word for “word,” or “saying.” This redundant reasoning satisfies some, but not those who realize the explanation repeats the assertion. The question, “What does it mean?” is left unanswered.

The point is that a statement must rest upon a foundation of axioms, or self-evident truths, if it is to be considered factual. Axioms establish a clear knowledge base from which valid conclusions can be derived. Should conclusions violate foundational axioms, these same conclusions are considered to fall outside the bounds of reason.

In the field of mathematics, a simple axiom is that one plus one equals two. Anyone in the world can place an apple next to an apple and see that, by definition, there are now two apples. Add one more, and there are three. Should a scientist later derive some new and revolutionary concept, but one that violates the axiom that one plus one equals two, the whole theory is rendered invalid. In the case of the Christian concept of Jesus being “the Word,” the doctrine unravels, for the simple reason that there are no axioms—there are no self-evident truths. All that exists is a reshuffling of words.

On the other hand, Islam teaches that the “Word of God” is the word by which Allah commands things into existence—the Arabic word kun, meaning “be.” The foundational axiom in this regard is that God creates through willing things into existence. And just as He willed into existence every big, every little, every thing, He created Jesus through His divine command, “Be.” Surah 3:47 points out:

Quote:
“Allah creates what He wills: when He has decreed a Plan, He but says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is!”


In the Bible we find the first example of the “Word of God,” Islamically speaking, in Genesis 1:3, God said
Quote:
“Let there be . . .”
—and it was!

Returning to the Holy Qur’an, surah 3:59 reads:

Quote:
“The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’: and he was.”


For those who claim the “Word” of John 1:1 (“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”) implies equality between Jesus and God, 1 Corinthians 3:23 muddies the doctrinal waters. This verse states:

Quote:
“And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.”


Now, in what way are “ye Christ’s”? A follower of his teachings? But then, in what way is Christ God’s? And if Jesus were God, why doesn’t the passage read “Christ is God” rather than “Christ is God’s”?

This verse emphasizes the fact that just as the disciples were subordinate to the prophet Jesus, so too was Jesus subordinate to God. Surely this distinction comes as no surprise to those who respect the authority of Isaiah 45:22
Quote:
For I am God, and there is no other

& Isaiah 44:6
Quote:
Thus says the Lord . . . ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God

& Deuteronomy 4:39
Quote:
The Lord Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other

& Deuteronomy 6:4
Quote:
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!


Given the above, claiming the wording of John 1:1 to equate Jesus to God certainly is selective reasoning at best. All of which leaves a reasonable person to wonder if anything is wrong with the Islamic viewpoint on this issue, whether understood in the framework of Unitarian Christianity or Islam.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 12:38 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:

HabibUrrehman wrote:

This is very important, go back to first commandment. Worship only one God and don't associate anyone with Him. God is absolute one and when one associates partners with Him, it is not monotheism anymore. That greatest sin a human being can do is to associate partners with God.
Livinglava Wrote
Can you explain exactly what this commandment means and why? I think it could be easily misinterpreted to demonize things it was not intended to put into question.


I thought I attempted to explain this in my previous posts because this is the key concept one need to understand. Let me Try Again:

First commandment: You shall have no other gods before Me.

Now when Christians say that Jesus is God, it is taking someone else as God. When Christians say Holy spirit is God that too is calling someone else as God. I know most people are sincere and they truely are trying to connect with God which they think is God because thats what their forefathers have been told. I understand that it is difficult to challenge what you have been brought up with. But let me ask would you be a Christian if you were born as a Muslim or Jew or an atheist?

God has given us intellect to analyze things and see what makes sense. There are so many contradictions in Bible which you should be able to see if you are using your critical thinking. How come people reading same Bible can come to different conclusions such as Jesus was a prophet only, God is only one, God is three in one, Jesus is son of God, Holy Spirit does not exist, Holy Spirit does exist etc.

I leave this for you to think about.

Oh and by the way, how much second commandment is fulfilled? Dont you see images in every Church?
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 12:48 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Quote:

Quote:
Habib Wrote

You probably got the answer in my response above. All I was trying of explain that Holy Spirit is an arch angel and is creation of God. Associating anyone with God is the greatest sin.

Livinglava wrote

Why? God is the source of all creation. All the angels and everything is created by and through God, so everything is associated with Him. I think the problem is confusing/distinguishing good and evil. Going back to Genesis, the First Day, God first created light and then saw that it was good, and then separated it from the darkness:
Quote:

…3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4And seeing that the light was good, God separated the light from the darkness.



The verse you quoted from Genesis is problematic. Per Bible God created Day and night first and then God created sun. It does not agree with established scientific facts. Setting and rising of the sun is what creates day and night so how come day and night is created before the creation of sun?


Second you are confusing the matters. You are saying that even though Jesus and holy spirit are creation of God but they are still God. Let me ask few question and hope those will help you crack this code:
What does trinity mean? Does not it mean three co-eternal and co-equal persons? Is Jesus co-eternal when he is begotten? Why was Jesus praying to the father? Why was Jesus not as knowledgeable as father?
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 12:54 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Quote:

To answer your question, the supplication is for riding any thing. At the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH, people used to ride horses and camels and in our time its cars and airplanes. Same supplication is made regardless of what we ride. This supplication is part of Quran and translation is below:

Quote:
All praise be to Allah, Glory be to Allah who has put this (vehicle or horse or camel or air plane etc.) under our control though we were unable to control it. Surely, to our Sustainer are we to return. [Quran 43:13-14]

Some people interpret references to 'vehicle' to refer to the body as the vehicle of the soul/spirit. How do you know when you are interpreting scripture correctly or incorrectly except through Holy Spirit, and even then, how can you know when you have been misled to believe revelation comes from Holy Spirit when it doesn't, except through Holy Spirit?


This is why we have prophets. Prophet Muhammad PBUH is the only prophet whose each and every action has been recorded for our guidance. Why? Because he PBUH was the final prophet and he is the only one who could interpret Quran for us.

Anyways there are many hadiths stating what supplication Prophet Muhammad PBUH used to make. Before riding a camel or horse, he would supplicate this dua.

Companions of prophet Muhammad PBUH and the peole who came after them used to do that same. So Muslims have whole chain of narrations from generations to generation stating what was interpreted and recommended by Propheyt Muhammad PBUH.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 01:02 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:

Scripture gives many examples of how God's message can be twisted to mislead. The serpent is the first example. An example I particularly like comes when Nicodemus asks Jesus how a person can be born again except by returning to his mother's womb. There was also conflict about whether to have Saturday or Sunday as Sabbath, but imo that conflict reveals that the meaning of resting on the seventh day isn't specifically to rest on the seventh day of the week, but rather to teach that rest is needed for humans and nature to heal and be restored. It is easy to take universal messages and apply them in ways that twist and pervert their true meaning. It happens all the time on the internet and elsewhere.


I agree, this has been done in all religions including in Islam. God knew this and that's why He took it on Himself to preserve the Quran. This is something never promised for previous scriptures.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 01:10 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

Oh and by the way, how much second commandment is fulfilled? Dont you see images in every Church?


It depends on the Church.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dm2An7UXoAAZho0.jpg

I got that by googling "wee frees church." They're pretty extreme, but quite a few protestant churches are similarly Spartan.
 

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