4
   

Can Atheists learn to speak Theist?

 
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 01:37 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Quote:
I have read other religions and did not find a complete way of life other than in Islam. I mentioned few things before which were very small on scale and probably have very little impact on society but does make an individual better. But Islam does not focus on an individual only, it's focus in mainly on a peaceful society. It forbids many thing which are considered right and legal in today's age. For example, interest system is strictly forbiden in Islam. It is one of the major sin because it promotes a society where rich becomes more rich and poor become more poor. It probably will not make sense to one who is used to banking system but let me explain. When someone like me buys a house, I have to buy the house by taking mortgage from the bank. I am taking the risk by borrowing that money on interest and when economy crashes, I will loose my job and could not pay my installments. Banks will kick me out of my house and sell same house to someone else regardless of how much installments I have already made. Bank was rich and got more rich, and I can be on the road because of this interest based system. This is evil and has destroyed many families.

Ideally, you could lend money without interest and no one would take advantage of it; but in practice there are people who would abuse money if they didn't have to pay it back. Probably best not to lend money at all, with or without interest; but then how do you help people who run out of money? Just give them what they need without requiring anything of them in return? It is a difficult question.


Islam encourages to give money on loan. The best is to lend money with no time limit on the borrower. It is difficult I understand but when we lend money we don't do it only to help our brothers and sisters who are in need but we do so to please our God. God knows that love for money and worldly things is a disease and He wants us to purify ourselves by loving only what deserves to be loved and that is our Creator. We come in this world empty handed and whatever we earn is given by God so we should not think twice when spending in the way of Allah.

Quran says:

Quote:
“Indeed, the men who practice charity and the women who practice charity and [they who] have loaned Allah a goodly loan – it will be multiplied for them, and they will have a noble reward.” [Al-Hadid (57:18)]


Notice in this verses Allah is asking to loan to Allah. Imagine of your mother asks you to borrow $100 for you, would not you think that why my mother is asking me to lend her money? After all she raised me and she deserves to demand her rights. But if she is asking you too lend her money then she probably knows that you are a stingy person and love money more than your mother. Similarly when Allah is asking us to lend Him money, He is indirectly also telling us that He knows that we love material things and for that reason He wants to help us out so that by spending our money in His cause we can get benefit in both worlds.

In another place Allah says:

Quote:
Believe in Allah and His Messenger and spend out of that in which He has made you successors. For those who have believed among you and spent, there will be a great reward. [Quran 57:7]


Notice here Allah directly says that He made us successors of what we own today and should not shy to spend on needy people.

Below is a link which you will find helpful explaining some rules of borrowing money in Islam:

https://theislamicworkplace.com/2011/08/21/some-rules-for-borrowing-or-lending-in-islam/

HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 01:43 pm
@izzythepush,
I am glad that there are some who take these commandments seriously. I would say that more than 80% of church have all sort of images inside them. Here in US, this number would be more like 95%.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 02:14 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
This debate is always going on, and it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding that love and discipline are in conflict with each other. It is because there are times, especially in childhood, when we don't see the light of discipline and we feel we are just being punished cruelly for no good reason. Often, children (and adults) are short-sighted and refuse to see/understand that discipline is ultimately for their own good.

They say, for example, that disciplining industrial culture to achieve climate reform and sustainability of planetary systems is just punishment, but when they see the light that we have to discipline ourselves to achieve ways of living that are permanently sustainable for future generations, then sacrifice is no longer a punishment but rather a tool/means for achieving what's right and good. It's just the same as when you grow mature enough to realize you have to sacrifice certain pleasures and desires to live a healthy and productive life. At first, the sacrifices you demand from children seem like punishment, but later they realize they had to learn to eat right, do chores, etc. and it no longer feels harmful to them, because it's not; they just experienced it as such because of laziness, etc.



That only validates my POV. Love alone is not enough. One needs to have a discipline in life and need to know the consequences of rejecting the truth. Jesus PBUH prayed just like Muslims do. Jesus PBUH fasted just like Muslims do. Jesus PBUH followed Jewish law and Muslims follow the updated version of the same law. This is how discipline comes in life and this is how love of Allah comes in our hearts. Theory without practical is just for books and cannot unlock our hearts to fill them with love of our Creator.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 03:03 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

Islam encourages to give money on loan. The best is to lend money with no time limit on the borrower. It is difficult I understand but when we lend money we don't do it only to help our brothers and sisters who are in need but we do so to please our God. God knows that love for money and worldly things is a disease and He wants us to purify ourselves by loving only what deserves to be loved and that is our Creator. We come in this world empty handed and whatever we earn is given by God so we should not think twice when spending in the way of Allah.

True, but it only works if you are spending/investing/lending to people who are going to use the money righteously and not use it to fuel indulgent lifestyles and otherwise waste resources. Although this verse doesn't refer to money/economics, I think it applies here:
Quote:

Matthew 7:6
6Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

Sometimes, it is good to invest resources but sometimes it is better to withhold money to prevent it from tempting exploitation the way blood in the water tempts sharks into a feeding frenzy.

It is always good to take a step back economically and ask, "what do people really need to live healthy, prosperous lives?" Usually, people struggle with money not because of hunger or lack of access to clothing and shelter but because they overspend on unnecessary things for the sake of pleasure, fun, status-attainment, etc. They could live a humbler life and still be blessed and experience great joy and happiness, but they foresake that in order to waste money and resources in pursuit of desires that don't align with right living.

Quote:
“Indeed, the men who practice charity and the women who practice charity and [they who] have loaned Allah a goodly loan – it will be multiplied for them, and they will have a noble reward.” [Al-Hadid (57:18)]

Charity doesn't have to involve money. You can help people by setting an example of how to live humbly, so that they can see choices they are free to make that will give them peace of mind and keep them out of debt. Often people have been tricked by their minds or others around them into thinking they need things that they don't really need, and those false needs drag them into debt and keep them from realizing a prosperous state in which their income, however modest, exceeds their costs.

Quote:
Notice in this verses Allah is asking to loan to Allah. Imagine of your mother asks you to borrow $100 for you, would not you think that why my mother is asking me to lend her money? After all she raised me and she deserves to demand her rights. But if she is asking you too lend her money then she probably knows that you are a stingy person and love money more than your mother.

Some people have mothers who are addicted to drugs or other costly expenditures. Sometimes honoring someone, even a parent, means rebuking and disciplining them with love, i.e. because you want to help them overcome sin, not fund it by just giving them money.

Quote:
Similarly when Allah is asking us to lend Him money, He is indirectly also telling us that He knows that we love material things and for that reason He wants to help us out so that by spending our money in His cause we can get benefit in both worlds.

Money is not a material thing. It is a means of getting material things. When you save money instead of spending it, you are foregoing material things that you don't need in the present. The money you save gives you peace of mind that you will not have to beg or otherwise lack of material things in the event that your income decreases in the future for whatever reason. If you can save money until you die, you can leave the money for your children, who have hopefully also learned to save for the future by foregoing unnecessary/wasteful expenditures in the present.

On a larger economic scale, the more people save and avoid spending, the less impetus there is for inflation, which is a tax on saved money. If someone with even the most modest income can learn to spend less than their income, they can save money and even that small amount of money will give them security and peace of mind for the future if inflation is kept to a minimum. Deflation would be the most charitable economic state, but as you may realize, central banks are always setting inflation targets and manipulating interest rates to achieve those.


Quote:

In another place Allah says:

Quote:
Believe in Allah and His Messenger and spend out of that in which He has made you successors. For those who have believed among you and spent, there will be a great reward. [Quran 57:7]

Well, you have to spend what is necessary, but overspending is waste and I don't know of anyone righteous who encourages waste. Do you?

Quote:
Notice here Allah directly says that He made us successors of what we own today and should not shy to spend on needy people.

Oftentimes, needy people lie because they want money for alcohol/drugs/etc. It is best to give food directly and allow people to camp or build their own housing somewhere if they can do so without causing environmental and social harm.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 03:25 pm
@livinglava,
Linvinglava Wrote
Quote:
Quote:

Matthew 7:6
6Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

Sometimes, it is good to invest resources but sometimes it is better to withhold money to prevent it from tempting exploitation the way blood in the water tempts sharks into a feeding frenzy.

It is always good to take a step back economically and ask, "what do people really need to live healthy, prosperous lives?" Usually, people struggle with money not because of hunger or lack of access to clothing and shelter but because they overspend on unnecessary things for the sake of pleasure, fun, status-attainment, etc. They could live a humbler life and still be blessed and experience great joy and happiness, but they foresake that in order to waste money and resources in pursuit of desires that don't align with right living.



You made a very good point and I agree you 100%. This is why it is important to know what the truth is.

Livinglava Wrote
Quote:
Quote:
“Indeed, the men who practice charity and the women who practice charity and [they who] have loaned Allah a goodly loan – it will be multiplied for them, and they will have a noble reward.” [Al-Hadid (57:18)]

Charity doesn't have to involve money. You can help people by setting an example of how to live humbly, so that they can see choices they are free to make that will give them peace of mind and keep them out of debt. Often people have been tricked by their minds or others around them into thinking they need things that they don't really need, and those false needs drag them into debt and keep them from realizing a prosperous state in which their income, however modest, exceeds their costs.


Again you made point and I do agree with them Those who don't have money, for them even meet others with a smile can be regarded as charity.

Regarding your other points ( I am not quoting those), yes one need to be reasonable when donating money. One needs to understand that he/she has a family to take care of. But at the same time, when time comes one should not shy away to help his/her community or those who really need help. Islamic history is full of such examples and I also see in mosques they people do donate with an open heart.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 05:28 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

Regarding your other points ( I am not quoting those), yes one need to be reasonable when donating money. One needs to understand that he/she has a family to take care of. But at the same time, when time comes one should not shy away to help his/her community or those who really need help. Islamic history is full of such examples and I also see in mosques they people do donate with an open heart.

I'm afraid that monetary help just gets exploited because the economy is set up that way. Poor people are prevented from building simple shelters and living in tents because business interests regulate housing to force up prices, for example.

The poor should be able to set up their own tents and/or build their own small homes with inexpensive materials, but they aren't allowed and so the money you give will just end up going to developers and others who benefit from forcing charity to pay more than necessary to help the poor. A few people will get helped this way, but most will still end up poor and homeless, and the people who benefit from the money will be the developers, tax collectors, etc. who set up the rules to their advantage.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 12:28 am
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

I would say that more than 80% of church have all sort of images inside them. Here in US, this number would be more like 95%.


That's not what you said earlier, you said every church had them. You were sacrificing the truth to make a cheap rhetorical point.

You're not going to persuade many people like that.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 03:43 am
@izzythepush,
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Religion_in_the_United_States
Quote:
Roughly 48.9% of Americans are Protestants, 23.0% are Catholics, 1.8% are Mormons (the name commonly used to refer to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). Christianity was introduced during the period of European colonization
I don't think Protestant Churches use statues etc, which is how we understand the term 'graven images'. Paintings or lead art on the other hand, are fairly common. That would lower it to below the 50% mark.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 03:49 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

HabibUrrehman wrote:

I would say that more than 80% of church have all sort of images inside them. Here in US, this number would be more like 95%.


That's not what you said earlier, you said every church had them. You were sacrificing the truth to make a cheap rhetorical point.

You're not going to persuade many people like that.

Nitpicking the word, "every," is the best you have to say in this discussion?
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 04:05 am
@livinglava,
It is the misuse of words like 'every' (or the opposite - lack of qualifiers when they are needed) that leads to:
- poor logic / poor justifications
- lack of considered thought
- misunderstandings in communication
- prejudice
- discrimination
- hate
- intolerance
- etc

They are small words that contribute greatly to such problems in the world. Supporting the misuse of such words contributes to the the above problems, whether you intend this to be the case, or not.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 04:24 am
@livinglava,
I know it wouldn't be important for someone like you who has scant regard for the truth.

It's normally something you avoid like the plague.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 04:31 am
@vikorr,
That's just America, globally the figure would be very different. Your quotation does not mention Orthodox Christians and there's lots of images in those churches.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 05:00 am
@izzythepush,
I realise the world would be different - Habib mentioned the U.S. at 80%, hence me raising the U.S. protestant figure. As for Orthodox churches, I'm actually not sure what they are like, but I said lower than 50% because the protestant mark + mormons was over 50%. Though come to think of it, I can't recall if Mormons have any statues etc in their churches.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 05:42 am
@vikorr,
They're very colourful places, quite similar to Catholic churches. I visited a monastery on holiday in Crete.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 08:16 am
@izzythepush,
First we need to understand what image means from a Muslims point of view. Pictures of Jesus may not be classified as an image for most Christians but that's not how a Muslim look at it. I have not seen any church without the picture of Jesus. There may be few but I am not aware of those. Mary is depicted in many religious paintings as well.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 08:20 am
@vikorr,
That's not true, I have not seen a single protestant Church without images of Jesus PBUH.
But anyways that's the not the main focus of my discuss. If someone wants to use these argument to get away from discussing fundamentals then all I would say that it is a nice try to distract us from the topic.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 08:32 am
@vikorr,
My friends let's not get lost in number game. I wanted to make a very simple point that images are forbidden and yet many churches have these images in the name of religious art work.

In contrast you can visit a mosque and perhaps you will see the difference. You would not find image of any living thing in mosques, not even the birds. This is how Muslims obey the second commandment.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 08:35 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Some take it to extremes, seeing all art other than abstract patterns as haram.

I know we're not talking about all Muslims, but a significant minority do.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 11:01 am
@izzythepush,
I agree. You will find that Quran often teaches to take middle path and avoid extremes. For example:

Quote:
Oh People of the Book, don’t go extreme in your religion, and do not say about God except the Truth. Indeed, the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary is the Messenger of God, His Word revealed on Mary, and a spirit sent from Him [Quran 4:171]


Prophet Muhammad PBUH said:

Quote:
Do not exaggerate in praising me like the Christians have exaggerated in praising Jesus the son of Mary. Rather, say that I’m the Servant of God and His Messenger


But as you said we do have people who go to extremes in all religions which is not right. Balance is very important in any thing we do.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 11:30 am
@HabibUrrehman,
I see the prophet's hedging his bets, Jesus is the son of Mary, not Mary and Joseph.
 

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