4
   

Can Atheists learn to speak Theist?

 
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 12:02 am
@maxdancona,
The Christian belief is has always been that their are two sides to the coin: genuinely asking for forgiveness, and showing that genuine remorse by seeking to improve. He barely mentions this side in this focus on forgiveness......


He seems to have the belief that he can commit the same sin as many times as he likes and it can be forgiven...forgetting that asking forgiveness has to be genuine...; sorry about punching you, forgive me...oh dang, I punched you again. Forgive me...oh you didn't see that punch coming, my bad, please forgive...I wish I could stop punching you, please forgive me...I really didn't mean to punch you again, please forgive me...oh drat, gave into my impulse to punch you again, please forgive me....does anyone really think the person is genuinely asking for forgiveness?



......meanwhile, he is highly suspicious of any non-christian working to be a better version of themselves, simply because they wish to be a better version of who they are...who without needing a promised reward.

So yes, pharisees weren't much different in regards to their religiosity, and forgetfulness of what it meant to be human, humble, and kind.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 07:15 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

The Christian belief is has always been that their are two sides to the coin: genuinely asking for forgiveness, and showing that genuine remorse by seeking to improve. He barely mentions this side in this focus on forgiveness......

You don't believe in Christian salvation, yet you try use Christian words against Christians, to attempt to lure them into feelings of shame and unforgiveness and failure to be worthy of their/our salvation; but of course we were never worthy of salvation in the first place nor will we ever be. We are sinners who are nevertheless forgiven. You can't and won't understand that.

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He seems to have the belief that he can commit the same sin as many times as he likes and it can be forgiven...forgetting that asking forgiveness has to be genuine...; sorry about punching you, forgive me...oh dang, I punched you again. Forgive me...oh you didn't see that punch coming, my bad, please forgive...I wish I could stop punching you, please forgive me...I really didn't mean to punch you again, please forgive me...oh drat, gave into my impulse to punch you again, please forgive me....does anyone really think the person is genuinely asking for forgiveness?

God knows when you are insincere and unrepentant. You only know/feel that you want to accuse someone of it to attack them on a spiritual level.

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......meanwhile, he is highly suspicious of any non-christian working to be a better version of themselves, simply because they wish to be a better version of who they are...who without needing a promised reward.

What makes you suspicious is the fact that you accuse and ridicule others for being suspicious. People who attempt to goad and ridicule others into dropping their defenses are clearly interested in making them vulnerable to manipulation. Why do you want people to be vulnerable to manipulation exactly?

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So yes, pharisees weren't much different in regards to their religiosity, and forgetfulness of what it meant to be human, humble, and kind.

Simple anti-Christian tactic: sort through Christian doctrine for examples of people and things deemed inimical to Christ and accuse Christians of being those things. It's just as easy as choosing any identity, figuring out its anti-thesis, and accusing people who hold the identity of being like their anti-thesis?

Thank you for your Marxist dialectical identity politics. Now lets move on to people who want to actually discuss atheists' capacity to learn to speak theist, instead of those who just want to force their secular/Marxist identity politics filters onto the discussion.

Go play witch-hunter, judge, and jury somewhere else; or rather just don't do at all anywhere and choose a more positive path instead.

You might one day end up like the good, kind, non-hypocritical, non-Christians you keep preaching about in such an unkind, accusatory way.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 02:36 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
you try use Christian words against Christians
No - I've consistently stated my comments relate to your hypocrisy etc (so that requires beliefs to be stated vs behaviour or double standard beliefs). If you ever see me writing with Neologist, this doesn't happen, because he doesn't engage in hypocrisy, and yet he is a very devout Christian. He has also given a great deal of thought to his beliefs. We don't always agree, but I rather respect his views. Your interpretation of motivation is purely self-serving.

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to attempt to lure them into feelings of shame and unforgiveness and failure to be worthy of their/our salvation
Feelings of shame about engaging in hypocrisy etc? Sure, people should feel shame for that, particularly if they keep engaging in such. But it is never too late to clean up ones act in relation to that - everyone has been hypocritical at one time or other.

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What makes you suspicious is the fact that you accuse and ridicule others for being suspicious.
Accused? You've virtually stated outright that you have such suspicion. And you should be ridiculed for being so suspicious of the genuineness of a persons kindness, compassion etc based on whether someone is christian, or not.

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God knows when you are insincere and unrepentant. You only know/feel that you want to accuse someone of it to attack them on a spiritual level.
Which avoids the provided example, and how repeatedly doing something shows no remorse, and little to no genuineness in the asking of forgiveness.

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Simple anti-Christian tactic:
To be anti-Christian, I would have to show a pattern of attacking Christians, and in particular, attacking them with with no basis. The only 'Christian' you will find I have 'attacked' is you. I don't even say you are a bad person (unlike you saying so of me), though I do find your behaviour in relation to hypocrisy, dishonesty etc entirely too consistent. Your view is entirely self-serving.

I notice you still avoid that in Christianity the other half of forgiveness is being the best person you can be (living right). It's something you've avoided like the plague in your writings. You do realise your life on this earth is preparation for the life in Heaven? One can't ask forgiveness for dishonesty, then immediately be dishonest, then ask forgiveness, then immediately be dishonest again, and expect God to forgive you. The behaviour shows such asking forgiveness isn't genuine. There must be some associated effort, and if through weakness we fall down, then we ask forgiveness...but if we just don't care about whether or not we sin...asking for forgiveness isn't genuine - it's just self serving "I don't have to try at all, cause I'll be forgiven" is hardly genuine remorse.

You can't get to heaven by works alone - it's the second half of the above. You must also repent and ask forgiveness.

Not that I care overly about such - but you keep thinking I don't understand these things.

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You might one day end up like the good, kind, non-hypocritical, non-Christians you keep preaching about in such an unkind, accusatory way
Even Jesus, who was a very kind person...didn't always engage in kindness, even going so far as to take a whip to people. It was not hypocritical of him to Engage in such. Kindness isn't always appropriate.

And before you reply to the above paragraph- you have taken an extreme view of my saying you are suspicious of kindness etc by non-christians done because that's who they see themselves to be internally. That is not the same as me saying 'kindness is the be all and end all' (ie. the extreme view). It's important, but there are times where it is not appropriate. It is certainly not appropriate when a poster keeps engaging in hypocrisy, dishonesty, double standards etc
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 02:39 pm
@vikorr,
Jesus himself said...

"Not all who say Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.....". You can't be cruel to other people, especially people in need and expect Jesus to welcome you in.

livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 04:02 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
he doesn't engage in hypocrisy, and yet he is a very devout Christian. He has also given a great deal of thought to his beliefs. We don't always agree, but I rather respect his views. Your interpretation of motivation is purely self-serving.

If you dislike my POV so much, why do you keep engaging in discussion with me? To punish me for the sins you've attributed to me and want to judge me for?

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Sure, people should feel shame for that, particularly if they keep engaging in such. But it is never too late to clean up ones act in relation to that - everyone has been hypocritical at one time or other.

What I have tried to explain to you about Christian belief is that shame is transcended by salvation and redemption. There is no benefit in feeling shame when you have accepted that your sins have already been bought by the blood of Jesus. There is only putting effort into improvement. Why don't you think people can devote themselves toward improvement without shame/judgment/punishment?

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What makes you suspicious is the fact that you accuse and ridicule others for being suspicious.
Accused? You've virtually stated outright that you have such suspicion.

Since when is it a crime or even a sin not to trust people? What moral code has you convinced that people are all supposed to trust each other?

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And you should be ridiculed for being so suspicious of the genuineness of a persons kindness, compassion etc based on whether someone is christian, or not.

Why? What makes you think people don't lie and fake goodness to save face? Even people who call themselves 'Christian' can be faking it without truly believing inside that they are saved.

People lie. You can't trust them. There is no category or identity that guarantees a person is trustworthy. The only reason why I have a little more faith/hope in Christians is that IF they are true in their hearts, which I can never know for certain, then they are truly committed to serving God and thus doing right. People who don't have any faith in their own salvation are more likely to accept that certain sins are just inevitable parts of life and keep them hidden inside without confessing/repenting them to God, whom they may not even believe exists.

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Which avoids the provided example, and how repeatedly doing something shows no remorse, and little to no genuineness in the asking of forgiveness.

I don't have to show remorse for failing to live up to your personal moral code. You have failed to convince me that my conscience has anything to repent.

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To be anti-Christian, I would have to show a pattern of attacking Christians, and in particular, attacking them with with no basis.

No, all you have to do is be biased against them and their beliefs inside. What you are talking about is keeping your hate and discrimination to a low-enough level that you can 'pass' as "not anti-Christian." You accuse me of dishonesty, but then you qualify your definitions by setting a thresholds below which you ignore that your doing something, only not systematically and aggressively enough to count it.

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The only 'Christian' you will find I have 'attacked' is you. I don't even say you are a bad person (unlike you saying so of me), though I do find your behaviour in relation to hypocrisy, dishonesty etc entirely too consistent. Your view is entirely self-serving.

Well, then maybe you are just anti-me. If so, just leave me alone. You have no right to harass me because you are against me. I don't like you either, but do you see me following you around in threads and pestering you?

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I notice you still avoid that in Christianity the other half of forgiveness is being the best person you can be (living right). It's something you've avoided like the plague in your writings.

I haven't avoided it. You just maybe haven't grasped that that's what I was talking about because you don't understand everything I say.

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You do realise your life on this earth is preparation for the life in Heaven? One can't ask forgiveness for dishonesty, then immediately be dishonest, then ask forgiveness, then immediately be dishonest again, and expect God to forgive you. The behaviour shows such asking forgiveness isn't genuine. There must be some associated effort, and if through weakness we fall down, then we ask forgiveness...but if we just don't care about whether or not we sin...asking for forgiveness isn't genuine - it's just self serving "I don't have to try at all, cause I'll be forgiven" is hardly genuine remorse.

You have created a definition of dishonesty in your mind that convinces you that you can evaluate me as dishonest, but I don't see what you mean. My honesty is within myself. If I get something wrong, it is not because I wasn't sincere in trying to get it right. You don't seem to grasp that people can make mistakes and that even if you have something right that they don't, they might not see the light because you tell them to.

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You can't get to heaven by works alone - it's the second half of the above. You must also repent and ask forgiveness.

"Sola fide"

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Not that I care overly about such - but you keep thinking I don't understand these things.

You understand some things on a weird superficial level that perverts them. You understand them the way a lawyer thinks they understand the person they are prosecuting in order to prosecute them.

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You might one day end up like the good, kind, non-hypocritical, non-Christians you keep preaching about in such an unkind, accusatory way
Even Jesus, who was a very kind person...didn't always engage in kindness, even going so far as to take a whip to people. It was not hypocritical of him to Engage in such. Kindness isn't always appropriate.

I don't remember any stories about Jesus whipping anyone but maybe you're right. What baffles me is when I finally address you in terms of the qualities you keep insisting I should respect in non-Christians, you shift to talking about Jesus. Then you tell me that you don't always have to be kind, because Jesus wasn't always kind, and that after you were chastising me about not being kind, which you insisted was a measure of Christian and non-Christian goodness. Then you accuse me of hypocrisy without acknowledging your own???

I'm starting to think you just like scrambling things to create intellectual mayhem. Troll much?

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And before you reply to the above paragraph- you have taken an extreme view of my saying you are suspicious of kindness etc by non-christians done because that's who they see themselves to be internally. That is not the same as me saying 'kindness is the be all and end all' (ie. the extreme view). It's important, but there are times where it is not appropriate. It is certainly not appropriate when a poster keeps engaging in hypocrisy, dishonesty, double standards etc

If you don't believe it should be a measure of goodness, then stop measuring me by what you consider to be a lack of kindness.

Better yet, just stop replying to my posts. I keep responding to what I read when it is just a waste of time.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 04:06 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Jesus himself said...

"Not all who say Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.....". You can't be cruel to other people, especially people in need and expect Jesus to welcome you in.

You think you can play these games with scripture to get power over Christians, but what you're doing is wrong. You are applying scripture with the wrong intent. You don't believe in heaven so you think it won't come back to bite you, but you will be judged as you judge others. That is true whether or not you believe in afterlife or anything else. What goes around comes around, one way or another.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 09:05 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
If you dislike my POV so much, why do you keep engaging in discussion with me?
I've explained this to you - many times. So why do you keep asking.

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There is no benefit in feeling shame when you have accepted that your sins have already been bought by the blood of Jesus. There is only putting effort into improvement.
And yet, as evidenced by your continued hypocrisy, dishonesty, and double standards - you aren't putting much effort into this area.

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I don't have to show remorse for failing to live up to your personal moral code.
There's the catch with hypocrisy isn't it - it's your Christian beliefs that you continually fail to live up to - ie your personal moral code that you aren't living up to, while pushing it in this forum.

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Since when is it a crime or even a sin not to trust people? What moral code has you convinced that people are all supposed to trust each other?
Nope, not what I said. On either count. Again - it was a comment on the hypocrisy you display.

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Well, then maybe you are just anti-me. If so, just leave me alone.
You keep coming to a forum, too frequently posting hypocrisies, double standards, and dishonesties, and expect no one to call you on it?

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You have created a definition of dishonesty in your mind that convinces you that you can evaluate me as dishonest
Dishonest:
- avoids evidence that conflicts with ones beliefs (this is dishonest with yourself)
- avoids questions that conflict with ones beliefs (avoids possible issues, maintaining a belief that might be flawed, allowing one to maintain in their own mind that their belief is rock solid - which is a dishonesty with ones self, because you can't tell that unless you face the question honestly)
- purposefully (on whatever level) misrepresents another's statements or ideas, no matter how minor the misrepresentations.
- Providing definitions you know to be false or only partly true to re-butt something (eg. hypocrisy regarding the christian belief of not judging and your judgements - where you tried to state judgement only relates to death type judgements)
- and similar
....sound familiar to each behaviour I've called you out for dishonesty on? Please, explain how such things are not dishonest (whether with oneself, or towards others).

Yet another distortion in your head to try and paint yourself as the victim. You are a victim - but mostly of your own dishonesty. You have trouble being honest with yourself in this area.
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What makes you think people don't lie and fake goodness to save face?
Many do. You know I know this by how I qualified, and how carefully I've qualified my statements regarding those conversations. So yet again. Why the statement?

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You understand some things on a weird superficial level that perverts them. You understand them the way a lawyer thinks they understand the person they are prosecuting in order to prosecute them.
You mean that I test them all to see if they are consistent? Oh wow...what I terrible person I am !

You certainly aren't the only person I question relating to double standards or poor logic (you seem to think it relates to Christianity - though with you, it's simply because that's where most of your poor behaviour displays itself). But the extent of this conversation is quite new - you have by far engaged in the most double standards, hypocrisies, and dishonesties of any poster I've ever seen on this forum.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 09:34 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Quote:
If you dislike my POV so much, why do you keep engaging in discussion with me?
I've explained this to you - many times. So why do you keep asking.

Because it only makes sense as harassment, and you shouldn't be harassing anyone.

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There is no benefit in feeling shame when you have accepted that your sins have already been bought by the blood of Jesus. There is only putting effort into improvement.
And yet, as evidenced by your continued hypocrisy, dishonesty, and double standards - you aren't putting much effort into this area.

You aren't my master and have no right to judge me or my progress in anything. I haven't subscribed to you as any kind of manager, overseer, or anything else with any authority over me.

You get away with talking like you get to boss me around because it's the internet and moderators won't stop it. Actually, if you continue to talk in that way, I might try reporting it and see if they'll do anything about it. It's not right.

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I don't have to show remorse for failing to live up to your personal moral code.
There's the catch with hypocrisy isn't it - it's your Christian beliefs that you continually fail to live up to - ie your personal moral code that you aren't living up to, while pushing it in this forum.

It is not pushing something to explain it and/or promote it. What is pushy is what you do, i.e. asserting standards, even ones that people subscribe to for themselves, and then holding them accountable to them and ridiculing them as a method of bullying. It's one thing to use such language to defend yourself, but it's something different when you are attacking someone because you don't like their POV.

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Since when is it a crime or even a sin not to trust people? What moral code has you convinced that people are all supposed to trust each other?
Nope, not what I said. On either count. Again - it was a comment on the hypocrisy you display.

You accuse me of lacking trust repeatedly and then you can't even stand up for your own BS value that people are supposed to trust others or be ridiculed as being suspicious. The only reason I'm not going to ridicule you back for this is because I am just tired of back and forth with you and I keep hoping you'll stop posting so I don't have to read another post from you. I assume, though, that you like torturing me by subjecting me to your posts, and that's the reason you'll go on posting regardless. In fact, you'll probably respond to my posts even more avidly because I tell you that I don't like reading what you post.

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Well, then maybe you are just anti-me. If so, just leave me alone.
You keep coming to a forum, too frequently posting hypocrisies, double standards, and dishonesties, and expect no one to call you on it?

If you haven't gotten me to understand how you see things at this point, then it's time to give up. No need to go on giving me more accusations to read over and over. You're done. Find someone else who might actually understand your criticisms of them.

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You have created a definition of dishonesty in your mind that convinces you that you can evaluate me as dishonest
Dishonest:
- avoids evidence that conflicts with ones beliefs (this is dishonest with yourself)
- avoids questions that conflict with ones beliefs (avoids possible issues, maintaining a belief that might be flawed, allowing one to maintain in their own mind that their belief is rock solid - which is a dishonesty with ones self, because you can't tell that unless you face the question honestly)
- purposefully (on whatever level) misrepresents another's statements or ideas, no matter how minor the misrepresentations.
- Providing definitions you know to be false or only partly true to re-butt something (eg. hypocrisy regarding the christian belief of not judging and your judgements - where you tried to state judgement only relates to death type judgements)
- and similar
....sound familiar to each behaviour I've called you out for dishonesty on? Please, explain how such things are not dishonest (whether with oneself, or towards others).

You just can't seem to understand that you've misunderstood so many things I've said and ignored so many others, that your judgements here don't even appear to me as judgments of what I've actually posted. They are just judgments of your own projections that you've managed to overlay on what I said to confirm your own prejudices and assumptions.

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What makes you think people don't lie and fake goodness to save face?
Many do. You know I know this by how I qualified, and how carefully I've qualified my statements regarding those conversations. So yet again. Why the statement?

It's just too tedious to say things and have you ask why because you don't understand them. Please just stop responding to my posts.

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You understand some things on a weird superficial level that perverts them. You understand them the way a lawyer thinks they understand the person they are prosecuting in order to prosecute them.
You mean that I test them all to see if they are consistent? Oh wow...what I terrible person I am !

No, I meant exactly what I said but you can't understand it so you paraphrase it to mean something that you can understand, which is not what I meant.

Just stop responding to me. It's a waste of scroll wheels.

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You certainly aren't the only person I question relating to double standards or poor logic (you seem to think it relates to Christianity - though with you, it's simply because that's where most of your poor behaviour displays itself). But the extent of this conversation is quite new - you have by far engaged in the most double standards, hypocrisies, and dishonesties of any poster I've ever seen on this forum.

Maybe one day all these moral values you keep asserting throughout your posts will become like a new 10 commandments and you'll be revered as the next Moses. Your commandments will read something like:
1) Thou shalt not have double-standards
2) Thou shalt not use poor logic
3) Thou shalt not be hypocritical
4) Thou shalt not be dishonest
etc. etc.

Then you can have your own inquisition and put people like me that you want to ridicule before a panel of judges who will all agree with you and condemn the defendant for what you assess independently of understanding things they've said.

I hope that doesn't really happen, but you certainly seem to be headed in that direction.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 11:16 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Because it only makes sense as harassment, and you shouldn't be harassing anyone.
You sure assign a lot of negative motivations to others. I presume it makes it easier to see yourself as a victim, and so disregard the issues with your behaviour... rather than seeing it for what it is - someone calling out your problematic behaviours.

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You aren't my master
And another assignation to help see yourself as victim, and excuse your behaviour.

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and have no right to judge me or my progress in anything.
Actually, I have every right. I don't buy into the 'thou shalt not judge' - because we as humans judge everything (and we shouldn't be hypocritical): who we like (or don't), who has good morals (or not), who we listen to (or not), who we see as good (or not) etc...through the whole spectrum of human behaviour. We as humans judge others multiple times per day, every day of our lives. It's just one of the inconsistencies in the bibles beliefs. If I had to take a passage on judgement from the bible - it would 'by the measure you judge, so will you be judged', which as a general sentiment makes a fine passage.

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It is not pushing something to explain it and/or promote it
The very definition of promote also includes push something forward. Though in this case, by push, I mean push with inconsistencies in what you are promoting. You get upset that people don't buy your promotion, even while it's full of inconsistencies, then claim they don't understand, and that it's truth...see, pushing.

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You accuse me of lacking trust repeatedly and then you can't even stand up for your own BS value
Again a misrepresentation of my position by yourself. Have I explained my values to you? Only a small part of it. And from that small part, you infer through the erroneous logic of "If he disagrees with me on X, then he must support Xa". And the Xa you arrive at, is a version that allows you to play victim. Considering how often you are assigning wrong motivations or values to myself...If you stopped to think about it, you would know this sort of behaviour of yours is not honest - it's designed by yourself to give you outs - Something to rail against, that allows you to disregard contemplating the problems in your beliefs.

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If you haven't gotten me to understand how you see things at this point, then it's time to give up. No need to go on giving me more accusations to read over and over. You're done. Find someone else who might actually understand your criticisms of them.
You're very capable of understanding them. It's quite clear you don't wish to. That's only one issue though - the main one is you keep trying to sell faulty logic and hypocritical beliefs, and that you don't want anyone to call you out on such behaviour.

Apparently, you think no one should point out the problems in your behaviour, because it is unkind, and bullying to point out when you engagein hypocrisy etc. Stop engaging in such behaviour, and there is no problem.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 11:35 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
You just can't seem to understand that you've misunderstood so many things I've said and ignored so many others, that your judgements here don't even appear to me as judgments of what I've actually posted. They are just judgments of your own projections that you've managed to overlay on what I said to confirm your own prejudices and assumptions.
Odd that I've understood everything you've said - it's like you want to think I haven't understood you - because I disagree with you. It seems that in your view of life, to disagree with you means the other person can't have understood. So you engage in incredibly faulty logic, but presumably this version of life makes you feel better about the double standards, dishonesties etc I called you on.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Sep, 2019 07:59 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Quote:
You just can't seem to understand that you've misunderstood so many things I've said and ignored so many others, that your judgements here don't even appear to me as judgments of what I've actually posted. They are just judgments of your own projections that you've managed to overlay on what I said to confirm your own prejudices and assumptions.
Odd that I've understood everything you've said - it's like you want to think I haven't understood you - because I disagree with you. It seems that in your view of life, to disagree with you means the other person can't have understood. So you engage in incredibly faulty logic, but presumably this version of life makes you feel better about the double standards, dishonesties etc I called you on.

Ok, so we disagree even about who understands whom and how. It gets so tedious to deal with radical misunderstanding at this level, better to just not discuss any further. There might be others who can make us understand things that allow us to communicate more fruitfully in the future, but no reason to beat our heads against a brick wall any further at this time.

Thanks for what seems to be a devotion to some form of righteousness on your part. I believe that all good-faith efforts eventually lead in the right direction, even if I currently think you're wrong; so I will give you that at least you're not apathetic.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Sep, 2019 01:51 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
It gets so tedious to deal with radical misunderstanding at this level
Here's the problem - each and every time I make a claim - I explain it (unless it's a summary of claims). You make claims, then when challenged, avoid or divert or misrepresent (and I've pointed each of these out and explained them)

There's no issue with fruitful understanding. Just think through what you sell, and don't sell things with inconsistencies, etc, and you won't find me raising them.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Sep, 2019 02:19 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Quote:
It gets so tedious to deal with radical misunderstanding at this level
Here's the problem - each and every time I make a claim - I explain it (unless it's a summary of claims). You make claims, then when challenged, avoid or divert or misrepresent (and I've pointed each of these out and explained them)

There's no issue with fruitful understanding. Just think through what you sell, and don't sell things with inconsistencies, etc, and you won't find me raising them.

The way you think, God is inconsistent because cats can climb trees and dogs can't. I can't explain to you why that's an empty application of the concept of inconsistency.

In your mind, you get to apply empty superficial logic to define Christianity as inconsistent and then insist that Christians "stop selling things with inconsistencies" and thus self-censor.

Your logic is empty and yet you seek to use it to manipulate people into questioning the righteousness they have discovered through deeper philosophical/spiritual processes.

Because I can't explain to you how inane your logic appears, I just say lets stop discussing it because otherwise you will go on asserting that you think your logic is flawless and it is just tedious.

"Inconsistency" can be applied as a meta-level concept to any number of subject things. It is not inconsistent that dogs can't climb trees and cats can. It is just nature.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Sep, 2019 02:27 am
@livinglava,
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The way you think, God is inconsistent
Untrue. To my way of thinking, God must be the definition of principled & consistent. But I think a number of religious beliefs are inconsistent. It's amazing how many faulty conclusions you jump to.

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In your mind, you get to apply empty superficial logic
You never provide explanation for any 'empty superficial logic' - just your religious beliefs, and those in a manner that avoids thinking about inconsistencies. So I presume you must mean that logic is empty and superficial? (if so, that will explain why you engage in so much hypocrisy etc)

In any event. Most times you have objected to a post/explanation I've written - you've:
- avoided the questions I've asked; or
- misrepresented the question or position I wrote; or
- removed a part of the question from context, then answered out of context; or (or taken a paragraph out of context of it's conversational history)
- ascribed motivations to allow you to avoid thinking about the problems;
- etc

If it makes you feel better - you can consider your behaviour the bedrock of a solid logical foundation...that won't make it so, but you can believe it.
Quote:
Because I can't explain to you how inane your logic appears, I just say lets stop discussing it because otherwise you will go on asserting that you think your logic is flawless and it is just tedious

My logic is far from flawless. It only comes across to you that way because your logic is so terribly poor on such a frequent basis. That by the way, is a "statement of fact" of how I see it, rather than trying to demonise you or some such that you may interpret it as.

But as I mentioned - the easy way to avoid this, is to think through your beliefs honestly, remove the inconsistencies, then post. Other Christians are able to do it. You choose not to.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Sep, 2019 03:17 am
@vikorr,
So far in this thread, it appears that the better question is "Can a theist learn to speak non-theist?" Though quite frankly, I think such a question would be unfair to the many theists who have given honest thought to their beliefs.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Sep, 2019 06:10 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Quote:
The way you think, God is inconsistent
Untrue. To my way of thinking, God must be the definition of principled & consistent. But I think a number of religious beliefs are inconsistent. It's amazing how many faulty conclusions you jump to.

Then why did God enable cats to climb trees while dogs can't. How can that be consistent in your way of thinking about consistency?

Quote:
So I presume you must mean that logic is empty and superficial?

Logic can be applied in ways that deviate from true reasoning. The example of dogs vs. cats in tree climbing is a good example of how you can apply the logic of inconsistency in an unreasonable way.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Sep, 2019 06:15 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

So far in this thread, it appears that the better question is "Can a theist learn to speak non-theist?" Though quite frankly, I think such a question would be unfair to the many theists who have given honest thought to their beliefs.

Then post another thread about it. It's a derivative question that is not in competition with the topic of this thread.

When you start the other thread, please be sure to address the issue of whether there is coherence/cohesion in 'non-theist' cultural thinking.

I think that I understand the way atheists think, for example, because I was one before I learned to understand, accept, and finally believe in theist philosophy.

But you may think a different way and consider your way of thinking quintessentially non-theist, and then classify those who deviate from your thinking as being tainted with theism and thus not actually non-theist literate. For you it could just be a game of setting boundaries and claiming territorial authority against others you wish to exclude for whatever reason, e.g. because their values don't conform to yours.

Anyway, feel free to start another thread about it, but please don't hijack this thread with a tangential mirror image of itself.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Sep, 2019 06:48 pm
@livinglava,
Lot of talking for what essentially was an observation.

Quote:
and then classify those who deviate from your thinking as being tainted with theism
And yet another wrong assumption - did you not pick up that I don't have any issue with theism (hence my talk of theists who have fine beliefs) - just inconsistency. Considering the theme of 'consistency' runs through virtually every post I reply to you, it should be impossible for anyone to miss...so why do you keep missing this, then ascribing faulty motivations to me? One would have to think your habitually incorrect assumptions must be of some benefit to you.

As I said - you don't want anyone calling you on inconsistency - don't engage in it. Simple.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2019 12:10 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
Then why did God enable cats to climb trees while dogs can't. How can that be consistent in your way of thinking about consistency?
You inaccurately complain that"
- "you think God is inconsistent", then when I point out your assumption is wrong, through your new example you imply:
- "But God must be inconsistent"?

You need to make up your mind. If you offered that just for nonsense conversation, well, that would seem pointless, but my response is below.

In response to your question - You take a statement on moral / character trait consistency, and then try to turn it into a physical consistency between different species argument. This is plain faulty. Within the moral / character trait consistency of a God is the ability to create things with different traits.

The above is obvious. If you would stop removing conversation from context, you wouldn't run into so many of these issues.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Sep, 2019 01:55 pm
@livinglava,
Forgiveness is necessary and for that all you need is to repent sincerely to God. It is a direct relationship between you and your God. Concepts such as original sin and atonement are man made concepts and have nothing to do with mercy and forgiveness of God. These concepts go against God's very nature of forgiving, merciful and loving.
 

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