New mothers - trusting!?

I don't think I felt either way. I was never parnoid about not letting people touch or hold my child. The only thing I can think I felt more "trusting" about immediately after having my child - was holding her and taking care of her. I never "trusted" or liked holding infants (and still don't). They seem too fragile to me, but my own baby, I had no difficulty or hesitation to hold her.

Oh more paranoid, totally totally. I was always the one who laughed off E.G.'s worries before I got pregnant -- jeez, lighten UP, dude!

Well.

INFINITELY more paranoid since, something I have to actively tamp down.

Interesting.

Maybe the connection doesn't extend past the mother and her child.

Or maybe it was just ME that new mothers didn't trust!

We must have been posting together, soz. My response was directed towards linkcat.

You exactly reflect what I've found to be the case with new mothers!

Maybe the trusting part is for the baby...

I can't really remember whether I was more or less trusting or paranoid.

After picking up the story in this week's Economist, I meant to start an oxytocin thread of my own; it's nice to see that such a thread already exists.

I am especially impressed with the way they were able to show that it was actually trust that ocytocin promotes.


Source

I didn't read the original in Nature yet, but from the summary this looks like a very nicely done study.

On a more personal note, I seem to remember that my mother was very trusting of me and my sister #1 after sister #II was born. She would let us carry her around, play with her, feed her etc. all the time. The only time I remember her intervene was when we tried to breastfeed her. Then again, my mother has always trusted us, so I can't tell if there was any difference due to sister #II's birth.

Perhaps some of the "trust" factor is diverted into lactation?

That's an interesting observation, Noddy, one I hadn't considered.

Maybe in the case of breast feeding it is the child that benefits from the hormone and therefore becomes more trusting.

That really ties in with all the stuff I've been reading about infant brain developement and stress responses - how the brain wires itself in infancy.

Perhaps bonding and attachment are facilitated through this sharing of "trust" hormones.

Hmmmm.

Thomas, I would love to hear more - if you read the full study maybe you could fill us in a bit. Or, maybe I'll try to tackle the article too.

The thing I was really wondering when I read the short newpaper article is whether there is some reciprocal response on the part of the other person. If the person was chemically more trusting would the interviewer build rapport quicker? Would their presentation differ? Would they in turn trust more?

I was thinking about this in terms of con men. How do they gain trust so quickly?

And I was thinking about this in terms of people who we say "are a good judge of character".

And I was thinking about this in terms of how sometimes my dogs will take an instant disliking to someone for what seems like no reason at all.

And how sometimes people just give you the creeps.

Trust and suspicion are so complex!

Traditionally new mothers are not the first line of defence against con men or berserkers or the beasts that go bump. They are expected to bond with baby so that baby will survive.

I suspect con men have a gift for empathy combined with a gift for manipulation of other peoples' greed. Egos can be stroked without hormones.

Boomerang - I also heard a report on this on the radio. Found it really interesting. I agree with Freeduck - I think its part of a design (chemical and hormonal release) during childbirth and nursing that facilitates the building of an emotional and physical bond between mother and child. I also read an article that talks about research that is being done one the bond that is built during the nine months of gestation between a mother and child. Some really interesting stuff.

I was reading a thread you had started months back concerning your relationship with Mo and some concerns you had. Didn't contribute because it seemed you had already gotten a lot of good input. But I was wondering if you'd be interested in this article. As I've told you before I have a biological child and an adopted child - so I've always tried to be aware of what issues might face each of them. This was an interesting article on what children who are adopted may face in terms of emotional development. Let me know if you're interested. It spoke a lot about bonding and behavioral issues, and I found the author to have a good, common sense approach and handle on the issues. She's an adoptive mom herself.

I'm VERY interested!

Thank you, aidan.

http://www.terrylarimore.com/PrimalWound.html

Boomerang - here's the link for the article. She also has written a book, I surmise, although I haven't read it. Keep reading, although the article starts out voicing all of the concerns that are present in an adopted child/adoptive parent relationship and seems to paint a picture of something that is just missing and can't be replaced - it does offer hope. I found it useful because it helped explain to me what my daughter might be feeling or will eventually feel that I have no way of knowing or understanding because I was not adopted. I grew up with my biological parents so I have no reference point of what it would feel like not to - this article does a nice job of describing and explaining I thought.

Perhaps the lactating mama needs to trust her husband, older children, mother, mother-in-law and kindly neighbors to run the world until she's back on her feet?

Thank you for the link, aidan, I'm still working my way through it but taking notes that I'm posting here .....



Mo's mom was raised by her grandparents while all of her full siblings and half siblings were raised by either her mother or her father and their new families. I know that this really, really bothered her. I've heard her say that exact same thing - "I wasn't good enough to keep".

She, in turn, has kept none of her own children but she has not yet completely relinquished any of them either. Interesting.

The whole preconcious stuff is very, very interesting....

I found that interesting too. Both my husband and my daughter were the only children in their families placed for adoption. He was the fifth of five boys and she was the fifth of five girls. In both cases, their biological mothers were just in situations at the time that they couldn't handle another child. My husband was never adopted - remained in foster care until he was sixteen and went out on his own- and we were blessed enough to be in the right place at the right time for my daughter. My husband has just totally rejected the thought of his mother or getting to know her -he knows who she is - and that she's still alive- too much hurt - and having his own family and professional success has somewhat alleviated his need for her - but it has been a real struggle for him. My daughter seems more interested in her sisters than her mother (we've only supplied a big brother - not nearly as interesting as four sisters :wink: ). I've told her that I'm interested in meeting them too - so maybe she'll decide she needs to do that someday.

I had never thought of all of this through this angle. But I can imagine how it would feel. I was one of six and even not being chosen as the "favorite" child by my mother (my oldest brother was and still is very obviously her favorite) was hurtful to me. Imagine being the one that was "given away" which is how it must seem to a child.

Another thought - Mo's mom never "learned" what it meant to be in a family or how most mothers behave toward their children. In fact, she was pretty much shown or "taught" an alternative method. My husband just gave me a card that said those very words: "Thank you for teaching me how to be in a family and the value in that". When you can't have something, a lot of people adopt the attitude (as a coping mechanism)"Well, I didn't want it anyway", and then go about finding all the reasons why they're better off without it, and sabotaging their chances of ever attaining it. And if it's the opportunity to be a part of a family that is being denied to them, I think that must be a primal wound. As well as the fact that along with all of the advantages, being a member of a family takes a lot of effort, committment, hard work - I can see why it might seem easier to someone to just say it's not for them, especially if they believe deep down that they are unworthy of it.

It's all fascinating to me. I admire your resolve and committment to Mo. I think it's good that he is expressing in words some of his feelings. I think it's important, and I know you do it - I can tell you're a good mom/dad (are you male or female? I thought you were female, but then someone somewhere referred to you as male and you didn't correct them, so I'm unsure.. but anyway) to sit him down and discuss with him the answers to every single one of his questions when he asks them. He needs to be "taught" to see himself as worthy to be a member of your family, and taught exactly what that will mean to him - the advantages and the responsibilities it will entail. With both my daughter and my husband, they both tried to reject my efforts to bond and attach, but I knew our lives and our happiness as a family depended on it. I have literally told both of them, I will not allow you to stay separate from me. Sometimes they listen and sometimes they don't, but they know I'm in it for the long haul, and I know it has made a difference. But you know all of this. Anyway - good luck to you. You are doing the most important work in the world right now - and as daunting as it seems - I can tell you have the love and the skills to do it.

Sorry it took me so long to get back - I wanted to make sure I had some time without a lot of interruption to respond.

A lot of what this article said reminds me so much of what Mr. B calls "the glamour parent".

His dad walked out on the family when Mr. B was two years old, with only intermittent contact for many years. When I first met Mr. B all I heard about was his dad - I didn't think he had a mom! It has really only been in the last few years that Mr. B has given up on impressing his "glamour dad".

Mr. B has continually warned me that I will not get to be Mo's glamour parent - that his bio-parents will always fill that role and it is really due to their inaccessability.

What the article said about trying to tell a kid "your mother loved you so much that she put you up for adoption" was really eye-popping. I have heard that so many times and it really doesn't make much sense at all. I think it was Noddy who gave me the line that I'm prepared to use - "Your mother loves you but she couldn't take care of you".

The pre-concious thing is very interesting. I hear pregnant women talk about their bond with their baby and I've heard that a baby is born knowing their mother's voice and smell and rhythms but I've never really heard anyone say what this article says - that separating the two is very tramatic to the baby because the baby has already bonded too.

Mo was two when he moved in with us - I don't know if that makes it better, or worse, from his perspective of loss. He loved being here from the time he was a tiny little weeks old baby and he never wanted to go back home after a visit, but back home he would go. Now I'm wondering if that might have a lot to do with the way he tries to push us away sometimes.

So much to think about.

I think you hit the nail on the head with Mo's mom never having learned how to be in a family. When I met her she was 11 years old and been living with her grandparents for a few years. I remember her absolute heartbreak when her dad moved away, taking his new family and leaving her behind -- even though this man had been impossibly cruel to her at one point in her young life. She still hides from her mother and refuses to have anything to do with her.

Not long ago I read a book called "Mothering without a Map" about how women learn to become mothers when their own mothers had been inaccessable. The sad truth is that most don't learn so they turn around and start the whole process over again with a new generation.

I know I'm kind of rambling here but I wanted to get some thoughts down while I try to process it a bit more.

Thank you for your encouragment and advice! Your "I will not allow you to stay sperate from me" is going to be my new mantra. Because Mo's bio-family is still sporadically in his life, we go through some weird, sad, rejection things. We are all worthy members of this family.

Boomer--

Hold your dominion--with duct tape if necessary.