On Illegal Immigration; Right or Wrong

ebrown_p:

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Any solution that will have my support (and my vote) needs to treat people, including immigrants, with dignity and respect.

The point of view represented by this particular politician is one that I strongly oppose. It is harsh and it necessarily divides America. I will speak out against it, and vote against it, every chance I get.

There are proposals that would make immigration law more reasonalbe, more enforceable and more humane that I would support.

You are not making a distinction between immigration and illegal immigration. You lumped them together as one with the above statement. They are not the same. My grandfather came over legally from Sicily and did as he was supposed to. Sure it wasn't easy but he did it the right way.

Don't try and blur the line between the two it does a disservice to all of those people who came here the right way.

Illegal immigration is a problem. Living in Boston gives you a different perspective on the issue then those who live in Border States. The jobs illegals take are indeed jobs Americans would take. I know when I was working as a carpenter I couldn't get a job as a framer due to the fact that only illegals were getting the jobs. I would have been the only white English speaking person on a framing crew. That is sad when I can't get a job in my own country because an illegal gets first pick. Is it any wonder why some Americans won't or can't get certain jobs here in the US?

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Cicerone,

Other than the obvious fact that they are both technically violations of the law, there is very little in common between the bank robbery and crossing the border without permission..

In bank robbery (or any other kind of robbery), the perpetrator forceably takes something that belongs to another part. No one accepts being robbed. There are no political groups that want bank robbers kept out of jail.

The laws against robbery and the penalties specifically protect a private party against the direct action of another private party against them. Every American appreciates the protection of the law and near every American supports the police forces work to prevent these crimes.

When someone crosses the border, they are technically breaking a law, but there is no direct victim. Who are these laws designed to protect? You can make a general argument that they are to protect American citizens in general, but unlike bank robbery, many citizens are willing to act against these laws.

Many citizens benefit when immigrants cross the border. This is why many American citizens are perfectly happy to break immigration law for both reasons of business and reasons of humanity. My life has been personally enriched by people in my community who have crossed the border illegally.

The biggest difference is a moral difference. The fact is that immigrants are here is because they many citizens both accept and benefit from their presence. Without this acceptance, immigration would not happen (nor would we have these arguments.

Because of this, harsh treatment of immigrants... especially a draconian penalties that break families and condemn people to poverty are simply immoral, and many Amerians understand this.

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I also want to point out again that Americans haven't have Au's view of the law on many issues.

From the Boston Tea Party, to Thoreau, to hiding runaway slaves, to gin running, to the Civil Rights movement, to interracial marriages, to Rosa Parks.... over and over again American's who have had less than a strict legalistic attitude toward the law are now celebrated, often for issues of morality and compassion.

Laws that have widespread public acceptance, are seen as fair and have reasonable consequences are generally enforced.

Laws that are irrational, harsh and unjust are often ignored. That's the way it works in our democracy.

If we can come up with a reasonable fair and humane immigration policy, I will support it wholeheartedly. As it is now, I am happy to support people who defy it. I have found that my life has been enriched by people who do.

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ebrown_p is right. Historically, we have always admired, supported and cheered certain lawbreakers. The conductors on the Underground Railroad certainly broke the law. Rosa Parks was arrested for breaking a law. John Brown, Harriet Tubman, David Thoreau -- lawbreakers all. It is disingenuous to somehow equate bank robbery with clandestine border crossings. The two have nothing whatever in common.

I can hear the neocons yelling, "Yes, there are victims in this illegal crossing. How about the American citizens whose jobs have been taken by the 'illegals'?" They wuill cite Baldimo's example of not being able to get a job as a framer because he's not Hispanic. I'm fairly sure that the reason they wouldn't you, Baldy, is because, as a bona fide citizen, you could complain about bad working conditions and less than industry standard wages. The undocumented can't do this. They are hired bacause they'll work for less and have no recourse to avenues of redress because they'll be deported if they complain. Is this fair? No. Not to the American citizen and not to the undocumented worker. But let's not blame the victim for the crime. Go after the employers, not the employees.

When laws are unfair, there are only two things a concerned citizen can do: first, disobey them; second, work to change them.

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ebrown_p:

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I also want to point out again that Americans haven't have Au's view of the law on many issues.

Are you sure about that? I know not every one agrees with things like the death penalty but you have to admit that we all think it is wrong to break the law and would like to see harsher punishment for certain crimes. Would you like to see a child molester get out after only 5 years?

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From the Boston Tea Party, to Thoreau, to hiding runaway slaves, to gin running, to the Civil Rights movement, to interracial marriages, to Rosa Parks.... over and over again American's who have had less than a strict legalistic attitude toward the law are now celebrated, often for issues of morality and compassion.

Where is the moral argument for illegal immigration? Mexico isn't willing to fix its economy issues so they send their problems north? Is that the right thing to do? Shouldn't they take care of their own people instead of making sure their #1 import is money sent there from America? Shouldn't they make sure their people have jobs? I know if it were the US you would make sure the American president had jobs for people, I know this because it was said over and over and over again how Bush was doing poorly on jobs for Americans. How many illegals take jobs from Americans?

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Laws that have widespread public acceptance, are seen as fair and have reasonable consequences are generally enforced.

That's part of the problem, the laws aren't enforced and people such as yourself don't want them to be enforced. You claim "enrichment" by the lawbreakers and don't want them to be punished. Well how well do laws work that when broken are not enforced? If murders weren't sent to prison do you think murder laws would work?

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Laws that are irrational, harsh and unjust are often ignored. That's the way it works in our democracy.

So are laws that aren't enforced, such as immigration laws.

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If we can come up with a reasonable fair and humane immigration policy, I will support it wholeheartedly.

We have a fair immigration policy. What you want is an illegal immigration policy. We have one of those as well; it just isn't enforced and is spit on by lawbreakers.

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As it is now, I am happy to support people who defy it.

Stop helping the lawbreakers. It is because of people like you that the laws don't work.

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I have found that my life has been enriched by people who do.

The reason the laws don't work.

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Merry Andrew
Why is it unfair to tell 11 million people and counting you are tresspassing and are not a welcome guest in my house.

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Au,

They are welcome guests. Many Americans including businesses and myself have invited them to stay.

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Because another 11 million people are saying "welcome to my home."

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Sure businesses want them so that they can be exploited for cheap labor they provide. Your reasons I am aware of from previous discussions on the same subject.
As to being welcome guests. That is your opinion. If they were the gates would be open and the welcome sign hung out.

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We're all exploiting cheap labor. Look at this article from Reuters.

China blasts EU, U.S. over textile curbs By Tamora Vidaillet and Lucy Hornby
1 hour, 41 minutes ago

BEIJING/SHANGHAI (Reuters) - China hit out on Monday at the United States and the European Union for curbing Chinese textile exports, saying the restrictions were justified neither by trade law nor by statistics.

Commerce Minister Bo Xilai said Washington and Brussels had failed to prove their domestic markets had been disrupted by an increase in Chinese exports since a 40-year-old system of quotas on developing countries' exports of textiles expired on Jan 1.

Bo said China was willing to hold talks, but he was scathing about the "double standards" of rich countries that flew the flag of free trade but rushed to throw up barriers when poor nations started to exploit their comparative advantage of cheap labor.

"The EU and the United States should spend more time on the development of high technology -- Airbus or Boeing airplanes, and advanced modern machinery -- rather than spending time quarrelling with us on issues like shirts, socks and trousers."

Bo was speaking hours after China said it would scrap export tariffs on 81 textile products, making good on its threat to roll back the taxes if the West imposed curbs on its goods.

The tit-for-tat move followed a formal request on Friday by the European Union for talks with China over surging shipments of T-shirts and flax yarn, which have fanned fears of widescale bankruptcies and lay-offs in the 25-member bloc.

China now has 15 days to limit this year's increase in exports of the two products to 7.5 percent over 2004 levels, otherwise the EU will enforce the limits itself.

Washington imposed similar quotas on Chinese-made trousers, underwear, shirts and other goods in mid-May.

Bo said the measures violated World Trade Organization rules and discriminated against China. He also disputed the evidence marshaled by the two governments to justify the curbs.

"The EU and U.S. imposed quotas on Chinese textiles based on primary data obtained in a short period of just three or four months and made a cursory decision. They are groundless and unscientific," Bo said. "In our opinion this move lacks legal grounding and therefore is incorrect."

IMMEDIATE RISK

The EU immediately rejected Beijing's charge.

"We have shown that not only is there a surge in imports from China but also ... that there is an immediate risk for (European) companies," European Commission spokeswoman Claude Veron-Reville said in Brussels.

In Europe, the flood of Chinese imports has crystallized fears that the EU is failing to protect jobs and was a background factor in French voters' rejection on Sunday of a new EU constitution.

But Bo said textiles were more important to China, where 19 million people depended on the industry for their living. Exports of $2.3 billion were at risk due to the U.S. and EU curbs.

Against this background, he said China had no choice but to scale back the export taxes it had voluntarily introduced.

"Since the U.S. and the EU have already decided to take quantitative restrictions against Chinese exports of textiles, how can the Chinese government possibly reimpose export duties on those products?" he asked.

EU figures show imports of Chinese T-shirts rose 187 percent in the first quarter of 2005, while imports of flax yarn, used to make linen cloth, rose 56 percent.

Bo said China's analysis of the market differed sharply.

He said that Chinese textile exports in the first four months of 2005 rose 18.4 percent from a year earlier to $31.2 billion.

Not only was this rise 5 percentage points smaller than the increase recorded in the same period of 2004, but it lagged the 35 percent jump in overall Chinese exports for January to April this year.

The row over textiles has added fuel to a debate over the value of the yuan, which has been pegged near 8.3 per dollar for a decade. Law-makers and manufacturers in the United States, as well as many independent economists, believe the peg undervalues the currency, giving China's exporters an unfair advantage.

Bo gave no clues as to Beijing's thinking on a shift in the currency, saying only that when the government decides it will consider China's needs and the stability of the global economy. (Additional reporting by Lu Jianxin in Shanghai)

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Baldimo,

Let's take an honest look at things. The current situation is a stalemate, and in many ways it just doesn't make sense. But that is just a symptom of how politics are played.

You keep screwing up my attempts to make sure that people who are here (legally or illegally) are treated with dignity and respect.

I keep screwing up your attempts to make life miserable for these people. I oppose unfair enforcement of laws I see as unjust. And, as much as possible, l make polticians or police chiefs who break up families or enact harsh penalties pay politically.

So we are at our stalemate. You keep on yelling for enforcement of the laws, I keep on yelling the the laws are unjust. I think you know deep down that these laws as they are now, will never be fully enforced. We, the American people, will simply not accept that.

You have successfully barred (for now) immigrant families from driving, and have made it near impossible for many of them to become legal.

We are keeping local police from enforcing immigration laws. We are making sure that illegal immigrants have the opportunity to give their children a good education and decent health care.

All your whining won't change that the reason these laws aren't enforced. Many American's are ambivalent about this issue.

Personally I feel pretty good right now, I don't mind continuing to slug it out politically.

I think that we have enough people in enough states to push things toward what I see as more rights and justice for undocumented workers. I also believe that the more the anti-immigrant groups can be portrayed as extreme, the better we will do... and thank God these groups are doing the job for us. (Factually, for all my public disdain, I secretly appreciate the Minutemen and the wonderful work they are doing for our side.)

But, by pointing out the law should be changed, I was really suggesting a compromise. If a large part of us Americans feel the law is unreasonable, a compromise that changed this law seems at least politically a good idea.

The McCain-Kennedy bill is a good example of this. If a portion of both the pro-immigration, and the anti-illegal-immigration sides can agree to sign on to this type of bill, it seems like it would be a good thing for the country.

But if this isn't possible, I don't mind to continue slugging it out like this.

The fact that I think you are morally wrong isn't really the most important thing. The fact that you don't have the political strength to force your opinions on the country is. And don't forget, My simple strategy will be to show America how extreme your side is, the more you help us in this regard, the better.

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au1929 wrote:

Merry Andrew
Why is it unfair to tell 11 million people and counting you are tresspassing and are not a welcome guest in my house.

I think you are in the minority here, au. Sure, they are unwelcome guests for some. But, in reality, most people either welcome them or don't give a rat's patootie one way or t'other. Many of the nay-sayers are talking out of both sides of their mouths. They pay lip-service to the concept of enforcing immigration laws, and sometimes they're the most vociferous in this respect. But they're the same people who gladly hire nannies and gardeners and yardmen and other types of labor, knowing full well their employees don't have a green card. Those who do the hiring don't want the illegal immigration to stop. And they don't want to legalize those already here because then they won't have the threat of deportation to hold over their heads. And then, of course, there are the people like ebown_p and myself, who have humanitarian reasons for opposing strict enforcement of the laws.

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Let's take an honest look at things. The current situation is a stalemate, and in many ways it just doesn't make sense. But that is just a symptom of how politics are played.

Lets do take a look.

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You keep screwing up my attempts to make sure that people who are here (legally or illegally) are treated with dignity and respect.

I don't have a problem with people who are here legally. It is the illegal people who get my goat. It is people such as you who blur the line. I haven't heard a single person on this board or in person who has said close down all immigration period. You blur that line by lumping together those who follow the laws and those who don't. Let those who are legal drive, get jobs and even receive limited social services. As long as they follow the rules they can stay.

People who don't follow the laws and respect our laws shouldn't be allowed to stay.

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I keep screwing up your attempts to make life miserable for these people.

People who are here illegally only make life miserable for themselves. If they were legal they wouldn't have any issues.

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I oppose unfair enforcement of laws I see as unjust.

You mean unfair enforcement such as finding illegal aliens and sending them home? Why is that unfair? They are not supposed to be here in the first place so we send them home. If they want to stay stop giving the money to the coyotes who rob them and could leave them for dead, instead apply that money to citizenship and stop waiting for some politician to put forth amnesty.

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And, as much as possible, l make politicians or police chiefs who break up families or enact harsh penalties pay politically.

It isn't the politicians or the police chiefs who are breaking the laws; it is the illegal aliens who are breaking the laws.

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So we are at our stalemate. You keep on yelling for enforcement of the laws, I keep on yelling the the laws are unjust.

I would like to know how the laws are unjust. Legal immigrants are not subjected to the same laws as the legal immigrants. I would call that fair.

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I think you know deep down that these laws as they are now, will never be fully enforced. We, the American people, will simply not accept that.

It isn't the people who don't want them enforced it is the illegal immigrant pressure groups and people such as yourself who don't want them. Phrase questions differently for different people and you get a different reaction. Ask a question about immigration and pose the same question about illegal immigration and I bet you would get different answers. It is about blurring the line and the illegal pressure groups are very good about that.

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You have successfully barred (for now) immigrant families from driving, and have made it near impossible for many of them to become legal.

We haven't made it near impossible, they have but not being here legally in the first place. Flow the rules and things are way different.

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We are keeping local police from enforcing immigration laws.

Don't we to many people in that statement. Most people want the laws enforced.

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We are making sure that illegal immigrants have the opportunity to give their children a good education and decent health care.

If they want those things they should come into the country the legal way and they will have all sorts of options.

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All your whining won't change that the reason these laws aren't enforced. Many American's are ambivalent about this issue.

I think people are more on the side of legality then anything else.

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Personally I feel pretty good right now, I don't mind continuing to slug it out politically.

I'm happy you're happy.

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I think that we have enough people in enough states to push things toward what I see as more rights and justice for undocumented workers.

What rights, they are breaking the law. Why should people who break the law receive special rights?

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I also believe that the more the anti-immigrant groups can be portrayed as extreme, the better we will do... and thank God these groups are doing the job for us. (Factually, for all my public disdain, I secretly appreciate the Minutemen and the wonderful work they are doing for our side.)

You once again are blurring the line between the legal and illegal groups. We are not against legal[/b] immigration. They are two different things and you don't help the situation. I think you do it on purpose to further your political aims.

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But, by pointing out the law should be changed, I was really suggesting a compromise. If a large part of us Americans feel the law is unreasonable, a compromise that changed this law seems at least politically a good idea.

I think some Americans want a compromise because nothing has been done and they want something to happen.

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The McCain-Kennedy bill is a good example of this. If a portion of both the pro-immigration, and the anti-illegal-immigration sides can agree to sign on to this type of bill, it seems like it would be a good thing for the country.

Don't you mean the pro-illegal-immigration and anti-illegal-immigration groups? You are once again blurring the line between legal and illegal immigration. That is part of the reason some people are confused.

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But if this isn't possible, I don't mind to continue slugging it out like this.

You like the inaction for lawbreakers. I happen to think my people have been prejudiced against in the form of anti-mafia attacks. I think we should change the laws so that my people can continue their illegal action in this continues.

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The fact that I think you are morally wrong isn't really the most important thing. The fact that you don't have the political strength to force your opinions on the country is. And don't forget, My simple strategy will be to show America how extreme your side is, the more you help us in this regard, the better.

I'm not being immoral, I want everyone to have the same chances in this country and you can't have that as long as people are trying to bypass the laws. Why should one group of people have to follow the laws and another group of people not? Isn't that being unfair?

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Baldimo, I love you.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Baldimo, I love you.

Sorry I'm already taken. :wink:

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Baldimo, I must admit your argument makes a whole lot of sense. We have many immigrants in this country who try to become citizens legally - making all the efforts necessary to do the right thing. That has to be worth something in this country over the illegals that want the benefits of citizenship while coming over our borders illegally. It lessens the legal standing of those that make every effort to follow our laws. Something is drastically wrong if illegals end up with the same rights in short order over those that work to become legit citizens. Sentiment is nice, but it's unfair.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Baldimo, I must admit your argument makes a whole lot of sense. We have many immigrants in this country who try to become citizens legally - making all the efforts necessary to do the right thing. That has to be worth something in this country over the illegals that want the benefits of citizenship while coming over our borders illegally. It lessens the legal standing of those that make every effort to follow our laws. Something is drastically wrong if illegals end up with the same rights in short order over those that work to become legit citizens. Sentiment is nice, but it's unfair.

I agree completly.

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Merry Andrew
Yes. On this subject I am in the minority. That of course is no surprise since in general the majority of people on this thread are left of center. And apparently believe that the only laws that need to be enforced and adhered to are those that they agree with

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It's also a very emotional issue for many of us. I don't think it's difficult to understand each side's concerns (those living in the border states that face the consequences of thousands entering illegally on a daily basis), and those of us deeply concerned at the perils many of those desperate to cross over for a better life face.

These people are willing to risk their lives (and many lose their lives) in order to live here, work hard, and provide a better existence for themselves and their families.

A radio news station replayed a 911 call that a dispatcher in a border state received from a man lost in the desert with a dozen or so "illegals". He was begging to be rescued as they were all dying of thirst, had no idea where they were and were running out of time.

I haven't heard the outcome of that tragic instance, but can only pray that they were found in time.

There's no easy solution and this is one of many threads on the subject that have been started and abandoned for that very reason.

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JW, There's a sense in all of us that wants the best for all humans. My only qualm are those that I have stated in my previous posts. On the other side of the coin are the absolute non and qui; I still have mixed emotions about this topic, because I want to understand both sides of the issue not only from a humanitarian perspective, but because there are issues of legality and limits concerning our ability to continually cover the social costs with limited resources. We now have over 45 million Americans without health care. Illegals get health care at our community hospitals. What is the correct balance? I'm still not sure.

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