Debra_Law wrote:I can't take your diatribes seriously.
Presenting facts and historical citations are a diatribe? Seems to me when people make assertions the rules of this board ask for specific references to back up one’s claims
Quote:Rules of the forum:
* Verify your claims...differentiate facts and opinions
Claims you want to argue in your posts ought to be clearly stated, but specific and not unhelpfully generalized. Try to find examples. If your claim isn't something you are able to verify, note that it is your opinion only. Where you can verify, show the sources so others can check. Provide links wherever they are aidful.
Debra_Law wrote:
You don't answer my queries about your hypocrisy.
Another unsubstantiated accusation?
Debra_Law wrote:
I have pointed out your glaring inconsistent stance on the interpretation and application of constitutional provisions.
Quote: rules of the forum:
* Be specific
Few things are more intellectually irritating (not to mention worthless) than reading some uncautious and poorly thought out claim…
My stance? What I have repeatedly referred to is the most fundamental rule of constitutional construction.
Debra_Law wrote:
With respect to the Fourth Amendment, you choose to be guided by the spirit of the constitutional provision and give it a broad construction -- a construction not necessarily intended by the "framers" as set forth in the actual language they used and the evil they sought to limit as amply discussed by Justice Black in his dissent in Katz. And yet, you insist the only way to interpret the Constitution is to ascertain the framers' intent.
Quote: rules of the forum:
* Be specific
Few things are more intellectually irritating (not to mention worthless) than reading some uncautious and poorly thought out claim…
Perhaps you ought to quote my words to which you refer before making such comments. Then I might be able to respond.
Debra_Law wrote:
Therefore, I ask again the question that you keep avoiding. What interpretation of the Fourth Amendment do you embrace? Do you approve of the interpretation and application of the amendment set forth by the majority in Katz? or do you approve of the "framers' intent" interpretation set forth by Justice Black in his dissent in Katz?
I support whatever the intent was of the framers and ratifiers of the Fourth Amendment as ascertained by a review of the historical record giving birth to the amendment, and basing that intent upon a preponderance of the evidence.
Debra_Law wrote:
With respect to the Fourteenth Amendment, you insist on giving it an extremely narrow construction that would only protect former slaves and no one else despite the amendment framers' use of language that broadly includes all citizens and all persons within the jurisdiction of a state.
Post my words in which I insist as you have claimed. Fact is, I merely agree with the most fundamental rule of constitutional construction…which is to carry out the intent of the constitution as contemplated by those who framed it and the people who adopted it.
I even went so far as to provided you with
numerous citations concerning this most fundamental rule, and even suggested that you consult Am Jur vol. 16, Constitutional Law, “Rules of Construction” starting with “Uniformity“ which begins:
Quote:
Constitutions do not change with the varying tides of public opinion and desire. The will of the people therein recorded is the same inflexible law until changed by their own deliberative actions. Thus, a cardinal rule in dealing with constitutions is that they should receive a consistent and uniform interpretation, so that they shall not be taken to mean one thing at one time and another thing at another time, even though the circumstances may have so changed as to make a different rule seem desirable. In accordance with this principle, a court should not allow the facts of the particular case to influence its decision on a question of constitutional law, nor should a statute be construed as constitutional in some cases and unconstitutional in others involving like circumstances and conditions. Moreover, the courts should never allow a change in public sentiment to influence them in giving a construction to a written constitution not warranted by the intention of its founders. [multiple citations omitted].
Unfortunately, instead of doing your homework, and learning the fundamentals of our constitutional system, and then engaged in an intelligent discussion, you prefer to misdirect the subject matter from a discussion concerning these rules, misdirecting it to your beliefs concerning how the constitution ought to be interpreted.
Debra_Law wrote:
I have made it clear that I am an advocate of liberty and equality. I believe the framers and ratifiers of our Constitution intended a broad construction of the language that they chose and approved in order to secure the blessings of liberty for ALL.
What you believe may very well not be what the framers and ratifiers intended.
Do you understand how the terms “liberty” and “equality” fit into our constitutional system? The term liberty, in general, refers to the unalienable rights of mankind which preceded the creation of government and are those freedoms which mankind may exercise in his natural state of being. Freedom of movement, freedom of association, freedom to acquire, own, utilize and dispose of property, and freedom to contract are some of the freedoms which together constitute “liberty” as mentioned in our constitutions, state and federal. However, there are intended restrictions on the meaning of “liberty” as used in our constitutions and those restrictions in general are to prohibit one individual in the exercise of their liberty from abridging the inalienable rights of another. For example, although people have an inalienable right to contract with each other, every individual has an inalienable right to refuse to contract with whomever they please, and so, contracting must be by mutual agreement. In addition, although two or more parties have an inalienable right to contract, they may not, under our constitutional system, contract in such a manner as would abridge the unalienable rights of another individual..
Indeed, our government was created to protect the unalienable rights of mankind and I would hope those who say they are an advocate of liberty would not waiver in protecting such rights within their intended constitutional meaning.
As to being an advocate of “equality”, perhaps you meant to say you believe in the equal application of the law, assuming that “the law” does not violate constitutional protections. In addition, and within the framework of our constitutional system, laws vary from state to state and although the people in one state may rightfully choose different law than another state, the people have agreed to such an allowance so long as state law does not violate a proscription contained in our federal constitution.
In any event, your statement concerning “equality” is far too broad for me to understand the context in which you intended to use the word.
Debra_Law wrote:
Depending on your agenda (and the result you desire), you are either an advocate of originalism (as evidenced by your narrow interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment) or you are an advocate of the living Constitution (as evidenced by your expansive interpretation of the Fourth Amendment). It's your inconsistent stance on constitutional interpretation and your resulting hypocrisy that I abhor.
Now, how about being specific and quote my words from which you have gleaned the charge of hypocrisy.
JWK