9
   

Will anyone defend Trump on this one?

 
 
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2019 08:41 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I see what you are saying here. The problem is that three or the four people in the group he is attacking were born in the United States.

Isn't it nativist to focus on them being born in the US as a reason they should be immune from criticism?

Quote:
Donald Trump's father is the son of immigrants from Western Europe. His mother immigrated herself from Scotland. Donald Trump is no more American than AOC in that regard.

Isn't it nativist to say that someone whose family has been in the US for more generations than someone else is "more American?"

Quote:
The difference is that Trump is White and Protestant with ancestors from Western Europe.

Why are you focused on race here? Why not focus on differences in politics and respect for equality? Are Trump's critics respecting him as an equal or are they attacking him as someone who is inferior to the position of president because of assumptions they have about the presidency as a royal throne and not just a governmental position to be held by an honorable citizen?

Quote:
If you are making an argument about free speech, you know I agree with you. Trump is allowed to make and defend any asinine bigoted statement he wants. But there is no question that these statements that paint White Americans as belonging here and telling others to "go back to their countries" is deeply troubling.

Trump has made speeches about how anyone can become a citizen of the US, but they are supposed to embrace US values. Considering that, doesn't it seem like he might be rejecting these people not because of their ethnicity but because of their attitude toward government and the role of citizens vs. government?

These are people who take an almost Nietchean will-to-power approach to operating within government. They may operate within the rules and laws of the governmental structure, but they do so as part of a strategic effort to maximize power for their interests, removing anything obstructing their pursuits by any means possible. As such, they seek impeachment not because they really think that Trump is obstructing the proper functioning of democracy but because he is obstructing the global social-capitalist interests they favor from having their way with the US by means of eliminating tariffs/etc.

They are supposed to respect others in the republic whose ideas and opinions differ from theirs, not seek to impeach and/or otherwise criminalize whoever obstructs their interests.
0 Replies
 
Real Music
 
  3  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2019 11:35 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
Results would have been very different with Bernie Sanders as Democrat's presidential candidate.

There is no way that any of us can say whether or not the results would have been different. You are making a speculation that you believe to be true.

I too have a speculation that I believe to be true. I believe that if Joe Biden had run and became the nominee, that Trump would have lost that particular election at that specific moment in time to Biden.

I am speculating what I believe to be true, just like you are speculating what you believe to be true.

None of us truly knows what would have happen if either Bernie Sanders or Joe Biden had been the nominee at that specific moment in time in that specific election.

All we do know is that Hillary Clinton lost to Trump. I would also add that I don't believe that it was any one reason (by itself) that cause her to lose. I believe that it was a combination of multiple reasons that caused her to lose.

Some people like to cherry pick one reason for her losing to Trump, while not acknowledging that there was no one reason she lost to Trump.

I believe that if you pick any one reason (by itself), she would not have lost.
And it doesn't matter which one reason (by itself) you pick. Hillary Clinton would have won.

I do find it humorous when I see some people cherry pick their favorite reason and say that that one reason was the sole reason she lost to Trump.
HabibUrrehman
 
  3  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2019 12:57 pm
@Real Music,
I 100% agree with you.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jul, 2019 08:34 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:



I see what you are saying here. The problem is that three or the four people in the group he is attacking were born in the United States.

My impression is that his comments were focused on Omar and he really didn't think about or care whether they might in any way factually apply to the others. I don't believe Trump is a racist, xenophobic or a white nationalist, but I do believe he doesn't care if things he says might be music to the ears of some who are. However, it's disingenuous to suggest that there is a group of politicians craving power from votes who will never pander to the baser nature of voters. It's also disingenuous to think that the voters of one party or the other are all fine upstanding citizens who ooze compassion and tolerance and never surrender to their baser natures.

One of my wife's Great-Aunts was a real dyed in the wool liberal who once had a good bit too much to drink at a wedding. At one point she went on a vicious tirade against Jews that ended with her slobbering that she would like to line them all up against a wall and machine-gun them. I was very new to the family, she was obviously bombed, and so I kept my mouth shut, but I turned and walked away. As I did I looked my father-in-law straight in the eyes and I'm sure my face portrayed my disgust because he sheepishly said to me "She's 66 you know." He was a very decent man and not at all anti-Semitic, but he was deeply loyal to his family.

Obama made comments (albeit far fewer and far more artful and subtle) that I feel certain appealed to the prejudices and bigotry of his supporters. They all do it. I wish Trump did not, but I don't feel like I have the luxury of dismissing all that he has accomplished and, I believe still will, because of his ugliness. I have three grandchildren with two more on the way. DNA tests tell us they are all mixtures of people found virtually everywhere in the world except Far East Asia. Whether or not you agree with me, I am extremely concerned about their American future if the culture continues its descent into the Wonderful World of Woke, and the government is run by leftwing ideologues. My wife and I should be able to ride it out until we leave this vale of tears, but my kids and grandkids won't be able to. There is certainly a redline for me, but Trump hasn't even come close to it. It's an ugly time in America and ugly rhetoric is flowing from both sides of the spectrum. Yes, POTUS should be setting a standard for civil rhetoric, but so should all of our elected representatives. Corey Booker hopes to be our next POTUS and just announced he often wants to punch Trump in the face. How many of his supporters do you think will switch horses because of that comment?


Donald Trump's father is the son of immigrants from Western Europe. His mother immigrated herself from Scotland. Donald Trump is no more American than AOC in that regard.

The difference is that Trump is White and Protestant with ancestors from Western Europe.

Trump and a lot of Americans (including me) think the Squad members are anti-American, and this is not a charge I make lightly as respects fellow Americans who criticize this country. By this, I don't mean that they seek to ruin or destroy America (although I'm not 100% certain of this with Omar), but when you advocate transformative changes to the principles and traditions that America has been built on and maximize our faults and minimize our virtues you are, in my opinion, anti-American . Just so we don't get caught up in issues of color or religion, I think Beto O'Rourke is right there with them, although I don't think he's substantial enough to be anything more than a vacuous spouter of notions he thinks will make people admire him.

You are right though that Trump is no more of an American citizen than AOC or any of the Squad. You're also right that there are people who think that White Americans are more American than a lot of non-White Americans. They are base idiots, but Trump is not one of them. Again I'm not going to defend his comments. If he had left it at something like "If you hate America, you can leave," I'd have been fine with them. "Go back where you came from" does cross a rhetorical red line, however, it's just not enough of a sin to cause me not to vote for him in 2020.


If you are making an argument about free speech, you know I agree with you. Trump is allowed to make and defend any asinine bigoted statement he wants. But there is no question that these statements that paint White Americans as belonging here and telling others to "go back to their countries" is deeply troubling.

I'm not making an argument about free speech, but I have made an argument about double standards. I'm not deeply troubled by them any more than I was deeply troubled about Hillary's deplorable comments or Obama's clinging criticism. Welcome to 21st Century politics in America.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jul, 2019 08:36 am
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

Lawsuit is coming soon against Trump and his administration....

Thank you Captain Nostrodomos Smile
Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jul, 2019 09:00 am
@Finn dAbuzz,

trump is used to dealing with lawsuits... he's had many filed against him over the years...
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jul, 2019 01:28 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Thank you Finn for a thoughtful reply.

1) I do feel that Trump crossed a red line that Obama (and even Hillary) didn't even approach.

2) If you read my other posts, you already know that Trump wasn't going to get my vote before these latest comments. You also would know that I am a big fan of Obama (who I thought was good for the country) and a big critic of Hillary (who I thought was horrible for the country. I understand what you are saying about both sides.

3) I don't think Trump is a racist. I do think Trump is an opportunist. I do think that much of Trumps base is motivated by the idea that America should be White and Protestant. I don't think he cares enough to actually be racist. I think he is using the racial divide in this country as a tool to reach his own political goals in a very intentional way. I don't think Obama or Hillary did this.

4) I have also said that my vote is still in the air... mainly because the Democratic party is pissing me off with their own identity politics. I have stated quite strongly that I will not cast a knee-jerk vote for the Democratic nominee, but instead they have to prove to me that they are significantly better than Trump is despicable.

Trump's latest tweets are taking the wind out of this argument.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Aug, 2019 01:03 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Thank you Finn for a thoughtful reply.

1) I do feel that Trump crossed a red line that Obama (and even Hillary) didn't even approach.

OK, we disagree

2) If you read my other posts, you already know that Trump wasn't going to get my vote before these latest comments. You also would know that I am a big fan of Obama (who I thought was good for the country) and a big critic of Hillary (who I thought was horrible for the country. I understand what you are saying about both sides.

OK, we disagree on Obama

3) I don't think Trump is a racist. I do think Trump is an opportunist. I do think that much of Trumps base is motivated by the idea that America should be White and Protestant. I don't think he cares enough to actually be racist. I think he is using the racial divide in this country as a tool to reach his own political goals in a very intentional way. I don't think Obama or Hillary did this.

I think they both did in ways that passed you by because you agree that a large percentage of the population are ignorant racists.

4) I have also said that my vote is still in the air... mainly because the Democratic party is pissing me off with their own identity politics. I have stated quite strongly that I will not cast a knee-jerk vote for the Democratic nominee, but instead they have to prove to me that they are significantly better than Trump is despicable.

Who are you kidding? You will vote for whatever Dem candidate goes up against Trump. Who among them is someone who would cause you to vote for Trump? If you mean you will stay home on election day...please, please do.

Trump's latest tweets are taking the wind out of this argument.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2019 09:33 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Why are you putting words in my mouth?

You aren't doing a very good job at reading my mind. You know... the liberals on Able2Know think I am as conservative as you are.

oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2019 10:52 am
maxdancona wrote:
Trump told American Congresswomen (all of them American citizens and all but one born in the US) that they should "go back to their countries". If this isn't racism, I don't know what is. Is there anyone who wants to defend Trump for this tweet? I think it is his most inexcusable yet.

Personally I don't see what the big deal is.

I'm not sure if that amounts to a defense of his words or not.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2019 11:06 am
two days before this thread was created, oralloy wrote:
I advise not paying attention to political nonsense to begin with.

I can sum up every day's political news in just three steps:

a) Someone spouted some name-calling at Trump.

b) Trump retaliated by making some tweets.

c) A bunch of people are having a fit over whatever Trump tweeted.

That's it. That is the political news every single day, over and over and over again.

Why bother?

http://able2know.org/topic/267070-875#post-6872319
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2019 11:15 am
@oralloy,
Why bother?

1) Because Trump is the president of the United States (he should know better).

2) We need to defeat Trump in 2020.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2019 01:17 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
he should know better

It's not like what he did was a big deal or anything.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Aug, 2019 11:49 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Why are you putting words in my mouth?

You aren't doing a very good job at reading my mind. You know... the liberals on Able2Know think I am as conservative as you are.




But we both know they are very wrong.

What words did I put in your mouth.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Aug, 2019 11:50 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Why bother?

1) Because Trump is the president of the United States (he should know better).

2) We need to defeat Trump in 2020.



What do you mean "we" kemosabe?
RABEL222
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2019 01:33 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
He means the majority of thinking Americans.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2019 01:34 pm
@RABEL222,
People can think like idiots as you have constantly demonstrated
0 Replies
 
 

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