0
   

Letter to Steve41oo from Tony Blair. Truth on Iraq war.

 
 
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 06:24 am
More on Tony's letter in a minute..

At last the truth is out. Courtesy af leaked documents, incautious remarks by British Defence Secretary Hoon and probing by Liberal Democrat spokesman Menzies Campbell.

As we all knew, regime change was the objective from the start.

July 2002 meeting in London has revealing statement by Hoon that the US has "already begun 'spikes of activity' to put pressure on the regime"

That is bombing Iraq and the start of the war began in May 2002 not March 03.

Campbell illicited from the MoD ordnance figures.

March 2002 no bombs on Iraq
April 0.3 tonnes
May 7.3 tonnes
June 10.4
July 9.5
August 14.1
September 54.6
October 17.7
Nov 33.6
Dec 53.2

In the early hours of 5 Sept 2002 more than a hundred allied aircraft attacked airfield H3 the main air defense site in western Iraq. It was destroyed to allow special forces operating in Jordan to enter Iraq undetected.

Nine weeks later Bush and Blair went to the UN to try and pursuade them to allow the use of military force.

The number of raids shot up from 4 to 30 per month, allied aircraft repeatedly returning to sites they had hit to finish them off.

The briefing paper for the July 2002 meeting stated categorically that

"When the Prime Minister discussed Iraq with President Bush at Crawford in April 2002 he said that the UK would support military action to bring about regime change."

also that

"Regime change per se is not a proper basis for military action under international law"

and it was therefore necessary to

"...create the conditions in which we could legally support military action"

the leaked British documents have found their way to the US political debate. They are just as damaging for Bush.

Under the US constitution only Congress has the power to authorise war, AND IT DID NOT DO SO UNTIL 11 OCTOBER 2002.

Military action to oust Saddam before that would constitute a serious abuse of power by the president.

Above based on article in New Statesman by Michael Smith.

And my letter from Tony?

It begins

Dear Mr Steve41oo

I wanted to write to you as soon as I could after polling day.....

and ends

Everything this government has achieved and will achieve in the future is down to people like you.

Yours sincerely

TB

Rt Hon Tony Blair MP

Leader of the Labour party


and in the middle it says

Please send money.
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 3,033 • Replies: 56
No top replies

 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 06:47 am
This shows that Bush is a lying ars*hole
And Blair is a lying ars*hole
And that Congress and Parliament were duped
And that the war was illegal.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 06:51 am
Bookmark
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 01:34 pm
I wish stories like this could get world wide interest and a snowball started on them. Maybe then there would be enough interest from the public in the US to demand that congress actually hold hearings and do congressional investigations.

But I live in this world and I know it never happen.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 02:30 pm
Come on, McTag, you can do better than that.

And there is nothing new here, Steve, except that you got solicited by a politician? Is that new?

I am such a sucker when invited to participate in a thread.

We must stop meeting like this, Steve.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 02:48 pm
It's natural that Bush et al wanted to invade Iraq, because it was strongly indicated by the circumstances. I and others wanted to see an invasion for years before it occurred. If Bush went through the motions of taking lesser measures, giving Iraq more chances to cooperate and giving the UN other chances to enforce its previous declarations, so what?

The invasion of Iraq was necessary for two reasons. First and foremost because the exact state of its WMD programs was unknown, but what was known was that Hussein had built WMD, had used them, and had misled inspectors seeking them. Either he still had WMD and development programs or he didn't, and we didn't know which. He had been given too many chances to obey his Gulf War 1 surrender treaty, in which he promised to disarm and prove it. The very first time he violated it and the UN failed to enforce it, we would have been justified in invading.

Secondarily, Hussein was, of course, a brutal dictator who raped and murdered his own people, so it was kind of satisfying to get him out of the way while we were there.

You libs are so fond of acting as though you've uncovered some monstrous conspiracy, but it's of significance only in your own wishful thinking. The people didn't believe your absurd horror stories about Bush on election day, and this is more of the same.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 02:54 pm
fine sumac

but it got ya eh?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 03:04 pm
I can't do any better than that. The truth is simply told. They lied. It was a crime. It is a disaster, the full scale of which is not yet known.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 03:08 pm
no doubt they lied

I'm sure it would be criminal if the lawyers were allowed to get their teeth into it.

It is certainly verging on the disaster end of the spectrum of military adventures.

And of course we do not know the outcome yet.

so yes McTag cant fault your logic.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 03:15 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
The people didn't believe your absurd horror stories about Bush on election day, and this is more of the same.


You might not be aware of it - but actually this isn't just an election issue for US-Americans (or UK citizens) but e.g. bringing DEMOCRACY to an invaded country.

And there are some more people than just "libs" (e.g. all conservatives I now, which aren't just a few), who don't consider this as "absurd horror stories".
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 03:24 pm
It is politics raised to the level of fascism. Democracy? Not even close.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 03:26 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
The people didn't believe your absurd horror stories about Bush on election day, and this is more of the same.


You might not be aware of it - but actually this isn't just an election issue for US-Americans (or UK citizens) but e.g. bringing DEMOCRACY to an invaded country.

And there are some more people than just "libs" (e.g. all conservatives I now, which aren't just a few), who don't consider this as "absurd horror stories".

Well, if you're so right, why don't you argue against my specific logic? My theory is that you cannot.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 03:28 pm
Diane wrote:
It is politics raised to the level of fascism. Democracy? Not even close.

Where is the actual argument which supports these slogans?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 03:31 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:

Well, if you're so right, why don't you argue against my specific logic? My theory is that you cannot.


No, of course I can't: only US citizens voted in that election (resp. UK-citizens in the United Kingdom).
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 03:32 pm
Actually even though this more than US elections, it is true that on election day most Americans still bought into Bush's hogwash regarding Iraq. However they have since changed their minds.

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

However, I don't hold out hope that there is going to some kind of big outcry to start holding hearings.
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 03:45 pm
Fascism: recognize any of these symptoms?

Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3


Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

From Liberty Forum

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_constitution&Number=642
109&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=-1
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 04:14 pm
Diane wrote:
Fascism: recognize any of these symptoms?

Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3


Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

From Liberty Forum

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_constitution&Number=642
109&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=-1

Fascinating. Would you mind posting a reference of at least 100 pages, and not explaining how any of it applies to your argument?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 07:58 pm
Diane wrote:
Fascism: recognize any of these symptoms?

Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3


Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

From Liberty Forum

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_constitution&Number=642
109&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=-1


That also describes the leadership of my country very accurately, Diane! Sad But then, should one be surprised?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 11:44 pm
Diane, you sure managed to make Brandon look stupid there! Good post.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 May, 2005 01:09 am
Thanks, Diane, for that post.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Letter to Steve41oo from Tony Blair. Truth on Iraq war.
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/24/2024 at 04:42:28