FBI tortures US citizens?

Forums: Politics
Email this Topic • Print this Page

They are taking it to the next level, folks.

Chicago Tribune:

Quote:

FBI accused of turning blind eye to torture by ally
2 U.S. citizens allege abuse in Pakistan

By Kamran Khan and John Lancaster
The Washington Post
Published May 25, 2005

KARACHI, Pakistan -- Two U.S. citizens of Pakistani descent charged Tuesday that Pakistani security forces tortured them during eight months of secret detention and that FBI interrogators were aware of the mistreatment but did not intervene.

Zain Afzal, 23, alleged that he and his older brother, Kashan, were repeatedly tortured after their August arrest in Karachi on suspicion of Al Qaeda ties.

In a telephone interview from his Karachi home Tuesday, Zain Afzal said he and his brother were questioned by FBI agents who made no effort to stop the abuse and claimed they had no authority to help them. The brothers, who have acknowledged having links to a radical Pakistani group, were born in the United States but have spent most of their lives in Pakistan.

"The FBI didn't torture us directly, but it can't be a coincidence that we were beaten severely, kept awake all night or hung upside down by Pakistani agents before each of about 10 interrogation sessions by FBI agents," Afzal said.

The brothers, whose accounts could not be independently verified, said they were moved to various facilities in Karachi and possibly elsewhere before they were released in April. They did not allege that U.S. agents were present when they were tortured.

Afzal and his brother described their experiences in detail to New York-based Human Rights Watch, which released a report on their case Tuesday. The group accused FBI agents of failing in their obligation to end the torture, to insist that the Pakistani government produce the men in court or to arrange for consular support normally provided U.S. citizens imprisoned in foreign jails.

Instead, the report said, the agents "threatened the men with being sent to the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, if they did not confess to involvement in terrorism." The two men, who were never charged, were released April 22.

In Washington, an FBI spokesman acknowledged that agents interviewed the Afzal brothers but could not say how many times. "Any assertion that the FBI condoned or directed torture is false," the bureau said in a statement.

A U.S. Embassy official in Islamabad, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, said that U.S. consular officials in Karachi learned of the case in October from local news reports, at which point they contacted relatives and local police. But the official declined to provide further information, citing privacy considerations.

Pakistan's interior minister, Aftab Sherpao, who is responsible for domestic security, asserted that the brothers "were never arrested in the country."

Human-rights groups have accused the Bush administration of overlooking excesses by its allies in the war on terrorism, and in some cases subcontracting the interrogation of terrorism suspects to countries where U.S. officials know that torture is routinely practiced.

In its 2004 human-rights report, the State Department cited reports that Pakistani security personnel employed such methods as "burning with cigarettes; whipping the soles of the feet; prolonged isolation; electric shock" and "hanging upside down," among other methods.

This is what Extraordinary Rendition means, folks. That we disappear people and take them to other countries where we look the other way while they are tortured.

It surprises me that some of you actually support this practice.

Cycloptichorn

Topic Stats
Top Replies
Link to this Topic

Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 1,440 • Replies: 25

No top replies

They are of Pakistani descent, lived most of their lives in Pakistan and admitted to being associated with a radical Pakistani group.

Why would anyone here care about them being tortured?

It's not like they were "REAL" citizens. It's not like they're white guys picked up in Iowa and abused by the FBI.

0 Replies

Re: FBI tortures US citizens?
Chicago Tribune:

Quote:

FBI accused of turning blind eye to torture by ally
2 U.S. citizens allege abuse in Pakistan

Zain Afzal, 23, alleged that he and his older brother, Kashan, were repeatedly tortured after their August arrest in Karachi on suspicion of Al Qaeda ties.

"The FBI didn't torture us directly, but it can't be a coincidence that we were beaten severely, kept awake all night or hung upside down by Pakistani agents before each of about 10 interrogation sessions by FBI agents," Afzal said.

The brothers, whose accounts could not be independently verified, said they were moved to various facilities in Karachi and possibly elsewhere before they were released in April. They did not allege that U.S. agents were present when they were tortured.

...

In Washington, an FBI spokesman acknowledged that agents interviewed the Afzal brothers but could not say how many times. "Any assertion that the FBI condoned or directed torture is false," the bureau said in a statement.

A U.S. Embassy official in Islamabad, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, said that U.S. consular officials in Karachi learned of the case in October from local news reports, at which point they contacted relatives and local police. But the official declined to provide further information, citing privacy considerations.

0 Replies

Clearly another over-reaction.

Clearly, we have no jurisdiction and the FBI did not directly "torture" anyone involved.

0 Replies

Were you interested, you could also probably find a number of "America did something good" or "these Americans did something good" news items to post, but that doesn't appear to be an interest of yours.

0 Replies

The three of you might check out Cycliptichorns other thread.

Click Here Please

0 Replies

Brandon9000 wrote:

Were you interested, you could also probably find a number of "America did something good" or "these Americans did something good" news items to post, but that doesn't appear to be an interest of yours.

If you wanted, you could at least express enough curiousity to consider or investigate such a story for yourself, but that's not an interest of yours. You're only interested in immediately dismissing or defending any possible hint of misbehavior on the part of the USA.

You're just as reactionary as your opposite number buddy.

0 Replies

Brandon9000 wrote:

Were you interested, you could also probably find a number of "America did something good" or "these Americans did something good" news items to post, but that doesn't appear to be an interest of yours.

If you wanted, you could at least express enough curiousity to consider or investigate such a story for yourself, but that's not asn interest of yours. You're only interested in immediately dismissing or defending any possible hint of misbehavior on the part of the USA.

You're just as reactionary as your opposite number buddy.

0 Replies

blueveinedthrobber wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Were you interested, you could also probably find a number of "America did something good" or "these Americans did something good" news items to post, but that doesn't appear to be an interest of yours.

If you wanted, you could at least express enough curiousity to consider or investigate such a story for yourself, but that's not asn interest of yours. You're only interested in immediately dismissing or defending any possible hint of misbehavior on the part of the USA.

You're just as reactionary as your opposite number buddy.

No matter what my faults or good points, it is nonetheless a fact, and an interesting fact, that many of you post only condemnations of the United States. This strikes me as kind of odd, since most people have some sort of positive feeling for their own country, and you certainly could find positive things to post too. I may be wrong, but in addition to the simple fact that you do post virtually nothing about America that is not a condemnation or expose, it also seems to me that you usually do so with gleeful triumph.

What I do or don't do is a separate subject. I actually start very few political threads, and some of the ones I do post are "tongue in cheek." I would never defend the US if it committed activities I considered wrong, although I might put such activities in perspective if I thought there was a point to be made. An example would be my position that the people who mistreated prisoners at Abu Ghraib Prison should be severely punished, but that I would not blame anyone higher up without real evidence that they were involved. I do not blame the US for most things related to Iraq for the simple reason that I approve of the invasion.

0 Replies

The world (as we know it) ended yesterday at 3:56 p.m. but since it wasn't good news it remains unpublished. Oh, and the drinking water in central florida was reported to be contaminated with arsnic to fatal levels but due to concerns that the public would find it depressing the information was not released.

0 Replies

Brandon9000 wrote:

I do not blame the US for most things related to Iraq for the simple reason that I approve of the invasion.

I really don't think that
those who blame the US for most things related to Iraq do so for a simple reason (for instance that they disapprove of the invasion
but they have thought about and discussed it, considered it e.g. a wrong doing, illegal etc. .

0 Replies

dyslexia wrote:

The world (as we know it) ended yesterday at 3:56 p.m. but since it wasn't good news it remains unpublished. Oh, and the drinking water in central florida was reported to be contaminated with arsnic to fatal levels but due to concerns that the public would find it depressing the information was not released.

That explains why I've been so sleepy.....

0 Replies

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
I do not blame the US for most things related to Iraq for the simple reason that I approve of the invasion.

I really don't think that
those who blame the US for most things related to Iraq do so for a simple reason (for instance that they disapprove of the invasion
but they have thought about and discussed it, considered it e.g. a wrong doing, illegal etc. .

Huh?

0 Replies

Brandon9000 wrote:

blueveinedthrobber wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Were you interested, you could also probably find a number of "America did something good" or "these Americans did something good" news items to post, but that doesn't appear to be an interest of yours.

If you wanted, you could at least express enough curiousity to consider or investigate such a story for yourself, but that's not asn interest of yours. You're only interested in immediately dismissing or defending any possible hint of misbehavior on the part of the USA.

You're just as reactionary as your opposite number buddy.

No matter what my faults or good points, it is nonetheless a fact, and an interesting fact, that many of you post only condemnations of the United States. This strikes me as kind of odd, since most people have some sort of positive feeling for their own country, and you certainly could find positive things to post too. I may be wrong, but in addition to the simple fact that you do post virtually nothing about America that is not a condemnation or expose, it also seems to me that you usually do so with gleeful triumph.

What I do or don't do is a separate subject. I actually start very few political threads, and some of the ones I do post are "tongue in cheek." I would never defend the US if it committed activities I considered wrong, although I might put such activities in perspective if I thought there was a point to be made. An example would be my position that the people who mistreated prisoners at Abu Ghraib Prison should be severely punished, but that I would not blame anyone higher up without real evidence that they were involved. I do not blame the US for most things related to Iraq for the simple reason that I approve of the invasion.

Artifact of the debate process here, and in most places, I suspect, Brandon.

I think it quite natural in a debate forum such as this for people to take far more entrenched sides than they do in real life (except for the real nuts from either side!)

Thing is, a kind of ritual dance develops - one's opponents irritatingly keep posting stuff you don't like - so you post stuff to counter their views, and one often gets quite keen to disabuse them of their wrong views!!!

Here, I am often accused of being very anti-American - cos I react to what seems to me to be the nutty stance of so many right wing Americans here that their country is the pinnacle of human goodness.

This makes them think that I believe the US is the nadir of human badness, and they try harder to convince me of how right they are, and how wrong anyone who criticises their country is. See the dance beginning?

Amusingly, in real life I am generally considered to be ridiculously pro-American - because I similarly try to counter what I believe to be ridiculous and un-balancedly negative views of the US. The arguments I get into in my real world are often as fierce - but not as nasty - as the ones you see here. (My friends and work-mates and I do not insult each other.)

I think the same thing applies to those from America that get into the same dance.

0 Replies

dlowan wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Were you interested, you could also probably find a number of "America did something good" or "these Americans did something good" news items to post, but that doesn't appear to be an interest of yours.

If you wanted, you could at least express enough curiousity to consider or investigate such a story for yourself, but that's not asn interest of yours. You're only interested in immediately dismissing or defending any possible hint of misbehavior on the part of the USA.

You're just as reactionary as your opposite number buddy.

No matter what my faults or good points, it is nonetheless a fact, and an interesting fact, that many of you post only condemnations of the United States. This strikes me as kind of odd, since most people have some sort of positive feeling for their own country, and you certainly could find positive things to post too. I may be wrong, but in addition to the simple fact that you do post virtually nothing about America that is not a condemnation or expose, it also seems to me that you usually do so with gleeful triumph.

What I do or don't do is a separate subject. I actually start very few political threads, and some of the ones I do post are "tongue in cheek." I would never defend the US if it committed activities I considered wrong, although I might put such activities in perspective if I thought there was a point to be made. An example would be my position that the people who mistreated prisoners at Abu Ghraib Prison should be severely punished, but that I would not blame anyone higher up without real evidence that they were involved. I do not blame the US for most things related to Iraq for the simple reason that I approve of the invasion.

Artifact of the debate process here, and in most places, I suspect, Brandon.....I think the same thing applies to those from America that get into the same dance.

I see that you have a smooth justification for any activity, including posting nothing but accusations against one's own country, triumphal gloating at every military setback, etc., but virtually never posting anything in its favor. I, however, would call it, while perhaps not treasonous, extraordinarily unpatriotic. Doing nothing but throw dirt on your country, and crowing with glee when its army has a reversal, is, in fact, not patriotic.

0 Replies

Lol - wow. And I thought you quite balanced before.

Damn.

0 Replies

Brandon,

Pure Hogwash!

Criticizing one's country is not anything close to "unpatriotic". Criticizing the war in Iraq the US is waging is not unpatriotic. Criticizing the use of torture against prisoners under US auspices is certainly not unpatriotic.

I love my country at least as much as you do.

I think the war is wrong. I think the US treatment of prisoners, from the torture to what I see as unjustified of prisoners without due process is incredibly immoral.

That these things which I find immoral are being done in my name by my government is incredibly frustrating. There is scant little I can do right now except for expressing my distaste loudly and prominantly. But as a citizen in a democracy, protesting what I see as grave injustices is not just my right, it is my responsibility and an act of patriotism.

There is plenty good about American and plenty I am damn proud of.

At the top of this list is the tradition of the free press. The fact that the press can report on torture allegation is not only incredible, it acts as one of the best checks against wrongdoing and our last best hope of acting justly in any circumstance.

The fact that you continue to codemn the freedom of expression that is one of our best traditions and our best hope to live up to our ideals, is lamentable.

The fact that you accuse me of being "unpatriotic" for using this freedom is offensive.

0 Replies

dlowan wrote:

Lol - wow. And I thought you quite balanced before.

Damn.

Arguments which are solely ad hominem indicate at most that the poster suspects he cannot argue the actual case.

0 Replies

ebrown_p wrote:

Brandon,

Pure Hogwash!

Criticizing one's country is not anything close to "unpatriotic".

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of people who don't read, or at least don't take a moment to think about posts before responding to them. I never said that criticizing one's country is unpatriotic. I said that someone who only says bad things about his country, and does that frequently, but never says anything at all favorable, or essentially never, even though he could, is unpatriotic. This is not the same as saying that any criticism is unpatriotic. And guess what? Only throwing dirt on one's country actually is unpatriotic.

0 Replies

Brandon9000 wrote:

dlowan wrote:
Lol - wow. And I thought you quite balanced before.

Damn.

Arguments which are solely ad hominem indicate at most that the poster suspects he cannot argue the actual case.

Or that the poster sees yawning the huge ayss between two points of view and considers them unbridgeable.

I have argued my views about the ridiculousness and irrationality of most manifestations of patriotism - particularly fervent ones - at weary length on this forum and do not wish to do it again.

Your outburst against people posting negative news about the US confirms my view of the general undesirability of patriotism.

0 Replies

FBI tortures US citizens?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know