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Salammbô

 
 
Francis
 
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 10:57 am
The carthaginian girl - the mystery and the unveiled...
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 8,269 • Replies: 159
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 11:40 am
You know, I never understood why Spendius was thrown
into jail....
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 11:42 am
He can't keep things unveiled...
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Mathos
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 03:34 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
You know, I never understood why Spendius was thrown
into jail....


He's from a particular breed 'CJ'


They belong in gaol, no other place for them really, we have experienced problems with them for centuries. We even made attempts at integrating them with immigrants from Asia, in order to see if the problem could be monitored out in a genetic fashion. Alas, no such luck and the results have placed our society in general in total jeopardy.

The 'Tyke' as is the common name for the Spendius araticus, are indeed a disaster to have fallen mankind in general.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2005 04:12 am
Who are we on about here.

Spendius,according to Sainte-Beuve was a real historical figure.He was a Campanian,son of a prostitute and a rhetor (Greek).He was a Roman slave who somehow got free."A strong man,bold to the point of rashness..."

In Flaubert's use of him he escapes from the slave prison in Carthage and teams up with Matho,a giant African who has all the manly qualities except intelligence which Spendius supplied.He is,of course,Flaubert's hero.

This thread is for lovers of the book.Those who are not engage in sniping at their own risk.

As for the Carthaginian girl let us read Flaubert-

"No one as yet was acqainted with her.It was only known that she led a retired life,engaged in pious practices.Some soldiers had seen her in the night on the summit of her palace kneeling before the stars amid the eddyings from kindled perfuming-pans.It was the moon that had made her so pale,and there was something from the gods that enveloped her like a subtle vapour.Her eyes seemed to gaze far beyond terrestial space.She bent her head as she walked,and in her right hand she carried a little ebony lyre."

Any good Calamity Jane?How would you fancy a bit of that.Have you any kindled perfumes because if you have here's where it derives from.It is an atavistic trait in ladies of a certain temperment.
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2005 08:42 am
Spendius, I have read the book many years ago,
and I remember how Matho was taken by Salammbo,
while at the same time being afraid of her. His
every thought was consumed by this women...
There is one passage I recall vividly (I have to look
for it though....)

A frightening thought to be not in control of yourself.

Kindled perfumes? Doesn't any woman have it when
she needs to?
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2005 08:52 am
C.J.

We would all like to hear which passage it was that you "recall vividly".

If it is true then Flaubert must have hit a spot.
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2005 08:58 am
I will. Just give me another hour or so, my little one needs
to go to School now.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2005 09:26 am
C.J.

No rush.I'm off myself shortly.Take your time.Read some more of it.Esp Ch V.

You're a boony looking lass I must say.All Salammbo fans are.Pretty exalted company you know.

You would have a job getting me off to school if I could sit on your knees all day.
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2005 10:27 am
There is a reason why you called yourself Spendius,
isn't there? Wink

Okay, here is the passage that I remembered so vividly,
as it shows how truly weakened Matho is by the love
fo Salammbo, and I had thought to myself, I hope I will
never get into an emotional dependency like this.....

Quote:
Matho, as naked as a corpse, was lying on a lion's skin flat on his stomach, with his face in both his hands; a hanging lamp lit up his armour, which was hooked on to the tent-pole above his head.

"You are suffering?" said the slave to him. "What is the matter with you? Answer me?" And he shook him by the shoulder calling him several times, "Master! master!"

At last Matho lifted large troubled eyes towards him.

"Listen!" he said in a low voice, and with a finger on his lips. "It is the wrath of the Gods! Hamilcar's daughter pursues me! I am afraid of her, Spendius!" He pressed himself close against his breast like a child terrified by a phantom. "Speak to me! I am sick! I want to get well! I have tried everything! But you, you perhaps know some stronger gods, or some resistless invocation?"

"For what purpose?" asked Spendius.

Striking his head with both his fists, he replied:

"To rid me of her!"

Then speaking to himself with long pauses he said:

"I am no doubt the victim of some holocaust which she has promised to the gods?--She holds me fast by a chain which people cannot see. If I walk, it is she that is advancing; when I stop, she is resting! Her eyes burn me, I hear her voice. She encompasses me, she penetrates me. It seems to me that she has become my soul!

"And yet between us there are, as it were, the invisible billows of a boundless ocean! She is far away and quite inaccessible! The splendour of her beauty forms a cloud of light around her, and at times I think that I have never seen her--that she does not exist--and that it is all a dream!"

Matho wept thus in the darkness; the Barbarians were sleeping. Spendius, as he looked at him, recalled the young men who once used to entreat him with golden cases in their hands, when he led his herd of courtesans through the towns; a feeling of pity moved him, and he said--

"Be strong, my master! Summon your will, and beseech the gods no more, for they turn not aside at the cries of men! Weeping like a coward! And you are not humiliated that a woman can cause you so much suffering?"
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 06:10 am
C.J.

Great stuff isn't it even without the context.

I chose my user name from this great character and I used "s" instead of "S" to express my inadequacy as a man compared to him.He is depicted doing something I admire without limit.He dies with a jest.

I find it possible to read Salammbo over and over and still come to passages I don't remember.But I remember the passage you quoted.A dealer in women would not only exploit male weakness but have a profound contempt for it as well.I think that by the time Flaubert wrote this masterpiece he shared this contempt.In that world "love" was seen as a madness.
I was surprised though by this choice.I expected you to "recall vividly" one of the mystical conjurations surrounding Salammbo one of which I used earlier.I thought it appropriate to start my contribution to the thread with-"No one as yet was acquainted with her."--because most threaders are not.Yet.

Isn't "pious practices" a phrase to meditate upon?

If you look at page 8 (in my copy) of Ch 5 you will see a paragraph beginning-"But someone was running".If you read the page without that paragraph nothing is lost to the action.So why is it there?And isn't it just wonderful?

However,what got Francis and I started was differences in translations.I loaned my classy copy to some lady who never returned it and this cheap copy I have has been messed about with.

Nice to have you on here.I hope you continue.It is a book that is almost never completely read.

Best wishes.And to the little one.Is it a little lad?
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 09:01 am
spendius, you're referring to this passage?

Quote:
But something was running behind them under the trees; and Matho, who bore the veil, several times felt that it was being pulled very gently from below. It was a large cynocephalus, one of those which dwelt at liberty within the enclosure of the goddess. It clung to the mantle as though it had been conscious of the theft. They did not dare to strike it, however, fearing that it might redouble its cries; suddenly its anger subsided, and it trotted close beside them swinging its body with its long hanging arms. Then at the barrier it leaped at a bound into a palm tree.


spendius, I'm probably not as excited about Salammbo as you and Francis are. I haven't read it numerous times and although it is a captivating book, I think, it is a story men
find more appealing than women do.

I found this to be true with other books too, i.e Hermann Hesse's Steppenwolf is something most men treasure whereas I barely finished it. Siddharta was my favorite.

I actually answered as Francis opened the thread and
had not gotten any answers initially http://www.mainzelahr.de/smile/schuechtern/icon_blue.gif

So, I leave you two to discuss the translation differences
in Salammbo, but will read along Wink

Thank you for the best wishes - the same to you.
(my little one is a 9 year old girl who's actually a tomboy)
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 09:30 am
C.J.

I just loved that last sentence.
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 11:42 am
The mystery resides in your beliefs. If you believe there's a mystery then there will be one. If you don't believe it, then there's no mystery. People tend to believe, innately or by atavism. Some have reflected a lot on such matters. If you think that the things you don't know are of divine nature than there will be God(s). If you take it more practically and think it's just a subject you don't know yet then mystery will become a question for which you'll search an answer for.
My comment is just a start for the discussion..

<edited to replace "than" with "then".>
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 04:15 am
C.J.

Cancel my sitting on your knees thingy.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 05:00 am
Francis:-

To assume there is a mystery is to underestimate the human race.That has solved all the mysteries already apart from those which it takes billions of dollars to get through.I think you are probably talking about entertainment.

I am for gentler mysteries.Such as why do people think they have "read" a book like Salammbo simply because they have cast their eyes through it at breakneck speed once.That seems to me to be literary tourism.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 05:01 am
Francis:-

The word you want is "then" not "than".
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AngeliqueEast
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 05:26 am
Bravo!
Francis wrote:
The mystery resides in your beliefs. If you believe there's a mystery than there will be one. If you don't believe it, than there's no mystery. People tend to believe, innately or by atavism. Some have reflected a lot on such matters. If you think that the things you don't know are of divine nature than there will be God(s). If you take it more practically and think it's just a subject you don't know yet than mystery will become a question for which you'll search an answer for.
My comment is just a start for the discussion..



Bravo, clapping!!!
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 08:34 am
spendius wrote:
C.J.

Cancel my sitting on your knees thingy.


You're so shallow Laughing
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 09:36 am
C.J.

I know.Great innit?

I bet it's 'orrible being all deep and profound and moody and sensitive and nice.
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