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OMG! CONDI (and BUSH & Now SCOTT) Still Thinks IRAQ = 9/11

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 03:51 pm
Lol - Lash - they have investigated - you simply refuse to believe the results - and none of your silly invective makes a bit of difference. It seems you refuse to read the evidence. Shrugs - well, whatever.

As ever, when someone dares to point out the things Americans do wrong, you imagine utterly baselessly, and despite clear information to the contrary, that all Americans are being accused.

I cannot think of any new ways to make this utterly simple point clear to someone who will not listen to reason - and it is clearly a waste of time trying.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 04:01 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Lash,

Quote:
Investigate. You see everything in such black and white terms. All or nothing. That's a bit rigid, isn't it? For one who purports herself to be so flexible...


Who is doing the investigating? The people who are accused of doing something wrong? That has a low chance of ever finding out the truth, and you know it.

Cycloptichorn


Well, despite that incontrovertible problem, they ARE finding out about the abuses.

The first investigation into the atrocities in Afghani prisons was a whitewash - the one the NYT has reported on appears far more thorough - and seems to pull no punches. Good on them.


It is a bit like the fact thet the military's own lawyers and were against the setting up of a shameful place like Gitmo - they believed it utterly contradicted the system of ethical and reasonable behaviour they had set up. They were also against the travesty of the manner in which the guilt of the alleged terrorists was to be determined in the military tribunals in Guantanamo. The rules re these have actually been changed somewhat due to legal and human rights outcries - many of them from America itself.

And some soldiers have stood up against the abuses - bless 'em too. That is a very hard thing to do in structures such as the military - and police etc.

Dealing legally with terrorists IS very difficult because of the nature of their organisations and what they do. Did you see the coming book Beth linked to in another thread somewhere looking at these legal issues?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 05:22 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Lash,

Quote:
Investigate. You see everything in such black and white terms. All or nothing. That's a bit rigid, isn't it? For one who purports herself to be so flexible...


Who is doing the investigating? The people who are accused of doing something wrong? That has a low chance of ever finding out the truth, and you know it.

Cycloptichorn


Incorrect!

Unless you accuse every American soul on duty in these facilities, you can count on the truth being told.

As has been proven in this case.

Your tendency to distrust all American guards underlines the point I made.

And, you can't take the word of detainees against their guards as the sole evidence, either and you know it!

When someone tries to smear all guards by association with code words like 'solid block' and 'consistent atrocities', I take issue. You are trying to lump them, dlowan, smear them all for the behavior of an extreme minorityand you know it!
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 05:44 pm
This doesn't prove or disprove anything, but it shows how prisoner/guard relationships are fertile grounds for abuse.

The participants in the test were 'average Joes,' previously tested to make sure there were no aggressive tendencies. Good American kids. The test was to be for two weeks. It had to be stopped after only six days. Even the originator of the test found that he had come under the influence of power, imaginary power.

I can't understand why anyone could possibly doubt that atrocities are the norm, especially in military prisons.

If we don't stop this and face up to commiting atrocities, we are no better than the people who commited terrorism in New York and Washington, DC. I don't think the "we weren't as bad as they were" holds up in civilized society. An atrocity is an atrocity, regardless of its size.

The Stanford Prison Experiment

http://www.prisonexp.org/slide-1.htm
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 06:01 pm
Face up to who committing atrocities?
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 07:30 pm
Lash wrote:
Face up to who committing atrocities?


Us.
We.
Us.
Nosotros
We.
Us'ens
Ourselves
US

you and me and maybe Bobby McGee.

Joe(Who else is there with whom we would be dismayed?)Nation

PS I've requested several geologists to look over the posts here. They report that while some posts are solid, some are just thick.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 07:42 pm
I believe the word "atrocity" has now lost all proper meaning in this thread.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 11:02 pm
Lash wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Lash,

Quote:
Investigate. You see everything in such black and white terms. All or nothing. That's a bit rigid, isn't it? For one who purports herself to be so flexible...


Who is doing the investigating? The people who are accused of doing something wrong? That has a low chance of ever finding out the truth, and you know it.

Cycloptichorn


Incorrect!

Unless you accuse every American soul on duty in these facilities, you can count on the truth being told.

As has been proven in this case.

Your tendency to distrust all American guards underlines the point I made.

And, you can't take the word of detainees against their guards as the sole evidence, either and you know it!

When someone tries to smear all guards by association with code words like 'solid block' and 'consistent atrocities', I take issue. You are trying to lump them, dlowan, smear them all for the behavior of an extreme minorityand you know it!


How could I KNOW (to use your shout) what is a ridiculously mendacious bit of nonsense?

No matter how you scream and yell, it is still not true.

Wake me when rational debate is possible.

McG - do you consider torturing a detainee to death is an atrocity?

Shall I get the other actions detailed in the military's report for you?


Would torturing an American prisoner to death be an atrocity?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 11:09 pm
Diane wrote:
This doesn't prove or disprove anything, but it shows how prisoner/guard relationships are fertile grounds for abuse.

The participants in the test were 'average Joes,' previously tested to make sure there were no aggressive tendencies. Good American kids. The test was to be for two weeks. It had to be stopped after only six days. Even the originator of the test found that he had come under the influence of power, imaginary power.

I can't understand why anyone could possibly doubt that atrocities are the norm, especially in military prisons.

If we don't stop this and face up to commiting atrocities, we are no better than the people who commited terrorism in New York and Washington, DC. I don't think the "we weren't as bad as they were" holds up in civilized society. An atrocity is an atrocity, regardless of its size.

The Stanford Prison Experiment

http://www.prisonexp.org/slide-1.htm


Is that the Lombardo experiment?

Abuse by guards is an extremely common phenomenon in prisoner/guard situations - unless there is extremely good management and accountability to keep a check on it.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2005 04:26 am
Now we have this kind of talk:

"It's not really an atrocity."
"No?"
"No. More of a shameful action."
"Oh."
"You see?"
"No."
"Look. Atrocities bring a feeling of horror, not shame."
"Well, I was horrified, but you, you were more ashamed?"
"Well, not really, I don't really care."
"So, you're neither horrified nor ashamed."
"I think we have to support the troops."
"Because they were following orders?"
"No. No one gave the order to do any of this."
"They just did it on their own?"
"Yes."
"They committed all these acts without any direction or orders?"
"Absolutely."
"So their officers, who are supposed to train and supervise them....?"
"Absolutely not responsible unless it's that woman General, then..."
"So what you mean is that you support the officers, not the troops."
"Look. Do you want me to spell it out?"
"That would be good if it was spelled a t r o c i t y."
"Well. It's not. Look, we are not going to admit to any imperfection."
"Isn't that the definition of some kind of psychosis?"
"I already said too much."
"You said there might have been shameful acts."
"Yes, and that was wrong. We've done nothing wrong."
"You've done noth...?"
"That's it. We're doing the right thing, we are on the road to freedom!"
"Do you know what the real atrocity is?"
"What?"
"Nevermind."
"No. Tell me."
"No. You tell me when you come to."

Joe(In later years the people who believed said they never saw it coming.)Nation
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2005 05:18 am
Lash wrote:
OE--

If they'd not fought alongside the murderer of innocent Americans, they wouldn't have to worry about Satanic Americans touching their fruity book....or doing anything else to them.

They disrespected human life. We responded.


This is really really too much, Lash. I'd actually like to think that you're simply naive. But this type of factual material is so widely available that such a belief is just not possible.

{the material highlighted in red is especially pertinent to this thread}

Quote:
DAY 1: Rogue GIs unleashed wave of terror in Central Highlands

By MICHAEL D. SALLAH and MITCH WEISS
BLADE STAFF WRITERS c THE BLADE, 2003


QUANG NGAI, Vietnam - For the 10 elderly farmers in the rice paddy, there was nowhere to hide.

The river stretched along one side, mountains on the other.

Approaching quickly in between were the soldiers - an elite U.S. Army unit known as Tiger Force.

Though the farmers were not carrying weapons, it didn't matter: No one was safe when the special force arrived on July 28, 1967.

No one.
With bullets flying, the farmers - slowed by the thick, green plants and muck - dropped one by one to the ground.

Within minutes, it was over. Four were dead, others wounded. Some survived by lying motionless in the mud.

Four soldiers later recalled the assault.

"We knew the farmers were not armed to begin with," one said, "but we shot them anyway."

The unprovoked attack was one of many carried out by the decorated unit in the Vietnam War, an eight-month investigation by The Blade shows.

The platoon - a small, highly trained unit of 45 paratroopers created to spy on enemy forces - violently lost control between May and November, 1967.

For seven months, Tiger Force soldiers moved across the Central Highlands, killing scores of unarmed civilians - in some cases torturing and mutilating them - in a spate of violence never revealed to the American public.

They dropped grenades into underground bunkers where women and children were hiding - creating mass graves - and shot unarmed civilians, in some cases as they begged for their lives.

They frequently tortured and shot prisoners, severing ears and scalps for souvenirs.

A review of thousands of classified Army documents, National Archives records, and radio logs reveals a fighting unit that carried out the longest series of atrocities in the Vietnam War - and commanders who looked the other way.

For 41/2 years, the Army investigated the platoon, finding numerous eyewitnesses and substantiating war crimes. But in the end, no one was prosecuted, the case buried in the archives for three decades.

No one knows how many unarmed men, women, and children were killed by platoon members 36 years ago.

At least 81 were fatally shot or stabbed, records show, but many others were killed in what were clear violations of U.S. military law and the 1949 Geneva Conventions.

Based on more than 100 interviews with The Blade of former Tiger Force soldiers and Vietnamese civilians, the platoon is estimated to have killed hundreds of unarmed civilians in those seven months.

"We weren't keeping count," said former Pvt. Ken Kerney, a California firefighter. "I knew it was wrong, but it was an acceptable practice."

Many details of the period in question are unknown: Records are missing from the National Archives, and several suspects and witnesses have died.

In many cases, the soldiers remember the atrocities and general locations, but not the precise dates.

What's clear is that nearly four decades later, many Vietnamese villagers and former Tiger Force soldiers are deeply troubled by the brutal killing of villagers.

"It was out of control," said Rion Causey, 55, a former platoon medic and now a nuclear engineer. "I still wonder how some people can sleep 30 years later."

Among the newspaper's findings:


Commanders knew about the platoon's atrocities in 1967, and in some cases, encouraged the soldiers to continue the violence.


Two soldiers who tried to stop the atrocities were warned by their commanders to remain quiet before transferring to other units.


The Army investigated 30 war-crime allegations against Tiger Force between February, 1971, and June, 1975, finding a total of 18 soldiers committed crimes, including murder and assault. But no one was ever charged.


Six platoon soldiers suspected of war crimes - including an officer - were allowed to resign during the investigation, escaping military prosecution.


The findings of the investigation were sent to the offices of the secretary of the Army and the secretary of defense, records show, but no action was taken.



Top White House officials, including John Dean, former chief counsel to President Richard Nixon, repeatedly were sent reports on the progress of the investigation.

To this day, the Army's Criminal Investigation Command refuses to release thousands of records that could explain what happened and why the case was dropped. Army spokesman Joe Burlas said last week it may have been difficult to press charges, but he couldn't explain flaws in the investigation.


But one former soldier offers no apologies for the platoon's actions.

William Doyle, a former Tiger Force sergeant now living in Missouri, said he killed so many civilians he lost count.

"We were living day to day. We didn't expect to live. Nobody out there with any brains expected to live," he said in a recent interview. "So you did any goddamn thing you felt like doing - especially to stay alive. The way to live is to kill because you don't have to worry about anybody who's dead."


Battle-tested platoon drew special mission



In a conflict marked by fierce guerrilla warfare, the task force needed a special unit to move quickly through the jungles, find the enemy, and set up ambushes. That role fell to Tiger Force.

Considered an elite arm of the 101st Airborne Division, the platoon - formed in 1965 - often broke into small teams to scout the enemy, creeping into the jungle in tiger-striped fatigues, soft-brimmed hats, with rations to last 30 days.

Not everyone could join the platoon: Soldiers had to volunteer, needed combat experience, and were subjected to a battery of questions - some about their willingness to kill.

The majority of those men were enlistees who came from small towns such as Rayland, Ohio, Globe, Ariz., and Loretto, Tenn.

By the time Tiger Force arrived in the province on May 3, 1967, the unit already had fought in fierce battles farther south in My Cahn and Dak To.

But this was a different place.

With deep ties to the land, the people of Quang Ngai province were fiercely independent.

In this unfamiliar setting, things began to go wrong.

No one knows what set off the events that led to the deaths of untold numbers of civilians and prisoners.

But less than a week after setting up camp in the province, Tiger Force members began to break the rules of war.

It started with prisoners.

During a morning patrol on May 8, the soldiers spotted two suspected Viet Cong - the local militia opposed to U.S. intervention - along the Song Tra Cau River. One jumped into the water and escaped through an underwater tunnel, but the other was captured.

Taller and more muscular than most Vietnamese, the soldier was believed to be Chinese.

Over the next two days, he was repeatedly beaten and tortured. At one point, his captors debated whether to blow him up with explosives, according to sworn witness statements.

One former soldier, Spec. William Carpenter, told The Blade he tried to keep the prisoner alive, "but I knew his time was up."

After he was ordered to run - and told he was free - he was shot by several unidentified soldiers.

The platoon's treatment of the detainee - his beating and execution - became the unit's operating procedure in the ensuing months.

Time and again, Tiger Force soldiers talked about the executions of captured soldiers - so many, investigators were hard pressed to place a number on the toll.

In June, Pvt. Sam Ybarra slit the throat of a prisoner with a hunting knife before scalping him - placing the scalp on the end of a rifle, soldiers said in sworn statements. Ybarra refused to talk to Army investigators about the case.

Another prisoner was ordered to dig bunkers, then beaten with a shovel before he was shot to death, records state.

The killing prompted a medic to talk to a chaplain. "It upset me so much to watch him die," Barry Bowman said in a recent interview.

One Tiger Force soldier, Sgt. Forrest Miller, told investigators the killing of prisoners was "an unwritten law."

But platoon members weren't just executing prisoners: They began to target unarmed civilians.

In June, an elderly man in black robes and believed to be a Buddhist monk was shot to death after he complained to soldiers about the treatment of villagers. A grenade was placed on his body to disguise him as an enemy soldier, platoon members told investigators.

That same month, Ybarra shot and killed a 15-year-old boy near the village of Duc Pho, reports state. He later told soldiers he shot the youth because he wanted the teenager's tennis shoes.

The shoes didn't fit, but Ybarra ended up carrying out what became a ritual among platoon members: He cut off the teenager's ears and placed them in a ration bag, Specialist Carpenter told investigators.

During the Army's investigation of Tiger Force, 27 soldiers said the severing of ears from dead Vietnamese became an accepted practice. One reason: to scare the Vietnamese.

Platoon members strung the ears on shoe laces to wear around their necks, reports state.

Former platoon medic Larry Cottingham told investigators: "There was a period when just about everyone had a necklace of ears."

Records show soldiers began another gruesome practice: Kicking out the teeth of dead civilians for their gold fillings.


For medic Rion Causey, the war was no longer about killing civilians but defending American strongholds as the enemy moved toward Saigon.

As the base camp was overrun and soldiers were dying, he came to a grim conclusion:

"The only way out of Tiger Force was to be injured or killed."

He was right.

On March 6, 1968, he was injured, and as he was lifted by the helicopter, he recalled looking at the Tiger Force soldiers below.

"I remember just kind of saying to myself: ?'God help you guys for what you did. God help you.'"



MORE, IF YOU CAN STOMACH IT AT,

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031022/SRTIGERFORCE/110190168
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 06:43 pm
JTT-- I had no idea such a steaming load was sitting here awaiting my inspection.

Are you under the impression that this impossibly oversized cut and paste has anything to do with anything I said?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 08:30 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
Lash wrote:
Face up to who committing atrocities?


Us.
We.
Us.
Nosotros
We.
Us'ens
Ourselves
US

you and me and maybe Bobby McGee.

Joe(Who else is there with whom we would be dismayed?)Nation

PS I've requested several geologists to look over the posts here. They report that while some posts are solid, some are just thick.


I have never committed an atrocity.

If you have, kindly leave me out of the plea bargain.

There are a multitude of US service personnel who have never committed an atrocity. Stop saying they have. Let individuals be charged for what they have done. I protest the broad brush treatment on innocent men and women.
0 Replies
 
roverroad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 08:53 pm
Didn't Bush say something along the lines of "I have to keep repeating my self so that it will become true"? Rice is just saying what her boss tells her to say.

You see, these people are so brain washed that they only repeat official drivel and they actually believe what they are saying. The bad thing is, there are so many brain dead Americans out there that their minds are like a sponge and it absorbs anything you tell it.

Unfortunately the soldiers in Iraq are only getting part of the story. They are programmed to believe that what they are doing is a good thing because Bush wants them to be killing machines. When they come home they find out what the real truth is, but without the arms and legs that they left in Iraq, they don't have much of a will to speak up and fight for the truth.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 08:59 pm
So anyway, here I am tonight with the telly on (PBS) and someone is interviewing this Army Captain who is just home from Iraq and the interviewer asks the Cap't "Do you think we did the right thing going into Iraq and the Cap't says right to the camera "Well, I believe that everything happens for a reason and since we are in Iraq there must be a good reason, so yeah we did the right thing going into Iraq."
Now this actually is the very best reason I have heard in the past two years about why we invaded Iraq, don't you all agree?
0 Replies
 
roverroad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 09:07 pm
dyslexia wrote:
So anyway, here I am tonight with the telly on (PBS) and someone is interviewing this Army Captain who is just home from Iraq and the interviewer asks the Cap't "Do you think we did the right thing going into Iraq and the Cap't says right to the camera "Well, I believe that everything happens for a reason and since we are in Iraq there must be a good reason, so yeah we did the right thing going into Iraq."
Now this actually is the very best reason I have heard in the past two years about why we invaded Iraq, don't you all agree?


So the guy doesn't know why he is there but thinks everything happens for a reason. What a moron! Rape and murder happen too, is there a good reason for it? You see what they give us to work with here?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 09:08 pm
Lash wrote:
JTT-- I had no idea such a steaming load was sitting here awaiting my inspection.

Are you under the impression that this impossibly oversized cut and paste has anything to do with anything I said?


==============
If they'd not fought alongside the murderers of innocent Palestinians, Vietnamese, Nicaraguans, El Salvadorians, Filipinos, Haitians, Cubans, ..., they wouldn't have to worry about others doing anything to them.

They disrespected human life. Some have responded.
========

This, as I'm sure you're aware, Lash, is called blowback; something that your own agencies warned would happen. I expect that they are still saying this. How can you be so naive? [wouldn't it be nice if it WAS only naivete?]
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 09:12 pm
That was sad.

NPR is doing a Guy In Iraq series these days, and they sort of let the guys just talk for a minute or two. Some are sort of sad--a gung ho guy who likes having the consequence to prove he's a legitimate tough guy--to really thoughtful people who feel that they're doing the hard work in a bid to make the world a safer place.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 09:21 pm
Lash wrote:
That was sad.

NPR is doing a Guy In Iraq series these days, ... to really thoughtful people who feel that they're doing the hard work in a bid to make the world a safer place.


This is much worse than I thought, Lash. It's not naivete; you ARE seriously delusional!

Make the world a safer place. What irony! What a cruel joke! Do you have any idea which country, far and away, is the largest purveyor of military hardware on the planet?

"... doing the hard work in a bid to make the world a safer place".

What a monstrous joke!!!
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 09:27 pm
Everything has not yet been completely engulfed in cynicism.

Iraq is a better place. It's not all flowers and sunshine at the moment--but those people have a much better chance at a great life now.

They will determine the future of that country.

It's no joke.
0 Replies
 
 

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