Underhanded American administrations....

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In response to one of our newest members posts, I thought I'd start a thread that will allow members to contribute incidences of "covert operations", "clandestine operations", or whatever fuzzy names they're called that would provoke a relatively sane and logical individual to pass judgements of conspiracies uopn this government.

I know, I know, Dr. Phil isn't always the best individual to quote, but he always says "past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior". So what in the past has made people believe that the government might in fact have a hand in 9/11?

...and let's not jump on me for the "sane and logical individual" assessment. I'm hoping for something of substance...so McG, here's your chance to bang on the left, if they have been guilty of some shady dealings in the past.

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Are we this desparate for new threads?

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Well, this is "ask the experts" DrewDad.
I have a question and I am hoping for some honest replies.

Seems to me conspiracy theorists are as old as them there hills. I'm just wondering if there is any evidence based in the historical record that would lead one to believe the American goverenment would be either willing or capable of undertaking operations that are morally or politically antithetical to their surface politics.

In my searches, I frequently end up at the undesirable sites not2know cites as reliable resources...and I am merely looking for redirection.
If none exist, fine.
If any do, lead on.

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Re: Underhanded American administrations....

candidone1 wrote:

...So what in the past has made people believe that the government might in fact have a hand in 9/11?

When very dangerous people are really trying to kill us, this is, to say the least, counter productive. Let's all waste our time looking for clues that FDR is secretly on Hitler's payroll while the real enemy strives to defeat us.

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What are you people so afraid of talking about?

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

What are you people so afraid of talking about?

Cycloptichorn

Would it have been wise during WW2 to put a lot of energy into speculations that FDR was in Hitler's employ? It's not related to fear. It's related to what sane people consider counter productive when you really are in danger.

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You mean like Iran Contra? Or, Iran / Iraq War support in the '80's and pics of Rumsfeld smiling and shaking hands with Saddam? Or, supporting the Taliban during the Soviet / Afgan war? Or, recent documents stating that the war really was planned before it was planned?

That kinda stuff?

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Our discussions on a message board aren't productive or counterproductive to ANY effort on a national level. So your argument isn't valid in the slightest.

And, you aren't in danger sitting at your computer desk in Central Florida, and neither am I here in Austin. Don't let the fearmongers scare you into being unable to discuss whatever you want!

Cycloptichorn

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People are trying to kill us. What shall we do? I know, let's attack each other. Let's accuse each other of bizarre conspiracy theories while the real enemy makes its plans for our destruction.

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Re: Underhanded American administrations....

Brandon9000 wrote:

When very dangerous people are really trying to kill us, this is, to say the least, counter productive. Let's all waste our time looking for clues that FDR is secretly on Hitler's payroll while the real enemy strives to defeat us.

Given the frequency with which you contribute to A2K, and looking at the threads to which you contribute, you're clearly not overly concerned with these dangerous people trying to kill you.
If my making such an inquiry is counterproductive, then your response to this thread is evidently not productive at all.
I'm merely asking sane and logical individuals to help me understand if there have been occasions in the past where the US has in fact covertly operated counter to their moral and political principles, then I too can simply write these conspiracy theorists off as loons as easily as you do.

Why is this such a mental obstacle? It seems pretty straight forward. But you guys think that I'm out to get your country or your prized president, when in fact I'm attempting to make more sound judgements toward conspiracy theorists based on your responses.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Our discussions on a message board aren't productive or counterproductive to ANY effort on a national level. So your argument isn't valid in the slightest.

And, you aren't in danger sitting at your computer desk in Central Florida, and neither am I here in Austin. Don't let the fearmongers scare you into being unable to discuss whatever you want!

Cycloptichorn

If a couple of WMD are used in major US cities, the impact will soon be felt nationwide. Furthermore, I don't want my country to be successfully attacked even if I personally am not killed. When people are actually trying to kill one, accusing each other of bizarre conspiracies (e.g. Bush is behind 9/11) is simply stupid. The rest of us will try to work for the good of the country while you look for evidence that Bush was secretly raised by hyenas.

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Brandon - Do you seriously think that discussing or not discussing our government in not so great terms in any way alters whether or not terrorists continue their plans?

Ya think if we were all united 100% that it would stop Osama from planning attacks? Or, stop insurgents in Iraq?

Ya really think if we all 100% agreed with our government and said nothing but nice things about it the terrorists are gonna go "Wait, this is a really nice government. Look how the people are united behind their administration. We shouldn't do anything to change that. Let's all go back to grazing our sheep and goats."

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Brandon9000 wrote:

People are trying to kill us. What shall we do? I know, let's attack each other. Let's accuse each other of bizarre conspiracy theories while the real enemy makes its plans for our destruction.

I have now written you off as a loon Brandon.
I've never heard anything so rediculous...nor have I ever met someone so paranoid.
As you hammer away on your keyboard in your bomb shelter in your infinite wisdom, I'm going to learn about a few things I know nothing about.

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Re: Underhanded American administrations....

candidone1 wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
When very dangerous people are really trying to kill us, this is, to say the least, counter productive. Let's all waste our time looking for clues that FDR is secretly on Hitler's payroll while the real enemy strives to defeat us.

Given the frequency with which you contribute to A2K, and looking at the threads to which you contribute, you're clearly not overly concerned with these dangerous people trying to kill you.

Nice to know that you're more expert about my experience than I am.

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Unless we turn out to be right, in which case asking questions does more to help the country than not asking questions.

It's NEVER bad to look for the truth and ask questions. Instead of making this thread about Bush, why not talk about KNOWN ways that older admins lied and misled people about what was going on?

Just to jump start the discussion, we have the good ol' Iran-Contra scandal, with the Enterprise that Noone seemed to actually know anything about, During the Reagan era. Huge deception there.

Cycloptichorn

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squinney wrote:

You mean like Iran Contra? Or, Iran / Iraq War support in the '80's and pics of Rumsfeld smiling and shaking hands with Saddam? Or, supporting the Taliban during the Soviet / Afgan war? Or, recent documents stating that the war really was planned before it was planned?

That kinda stuff?

Yes, that sort of thing.
I have some reading to do.
Thank you.

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candidone1 wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
People are trying to kill us. What shall we do? I know, let's attack each other. Let's accuse each other of bizarre conspiracy theories while the real enemy makes its plans for our destruction.

I have now written you off as a loon Brandon.
I've never heard anything so rediculous...nor have I ever met someone so paranoid.
As you hammer away on your keyboard in your bomb shelter in your infinite wisdom, I'm going to learn about a few things I know nothing about.

Well, given two bombings of the World Trade Center, the bombing of the Cole, bombings of our embassies in Africa, the shoe bomber, and the prevented Millenium bomb plot, plus actual statements made by Al Qaeda weekly, I think that it is a reasonable conlusion that our enemies are making plans for our destruction. It doesn't require much imagination. I find it hilarious that someone looking for evidence that Bush was behind 9/11 is calling me a loon.

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squinney wrote:

Brandon - Do you seriously think that discussing or not discussing our government in not so great terms in any way alters whether or not terrorists continue their plans?

Ya think if we were all united 100% that it would stop Osama from planning attacks? Or, stop insurgents in Iraq?

Ya really think if we all 100% agreed with our government and said nothing but nice things about it the terrorists are gonna go "Wait, this is a really nice government. Look how the people are united behind their administration. We shouldn't do anything to change that. Let's all go back to grazing our sheep and goats."

Not at all, but I do believe it engenders the wrong atmosphere to attack each other, while we are in serious danger from a real, very lethal enemy.

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Can you answer my post, Brandon? Really curious how a discussion or questioning of our government might change terrorist behavior.

EDIT:

Posted at same time.

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The AQ bombings suck,

But the suppression of Freedom is the TRUE enemy.

It must suck to be fighting for the enemy, Brandon

Cycloptichorn

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Underhanded American administrations....

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