Homeland security

au1929 wrote:

Brandon wrote

Quote:
I regard terrorists as being people who deliberately target noncombatants. Had he merely tried to assassinate Castro, and confined himself to this activity, I would not consider him to be a terrorist?

Based upon that definition had he or anyone attempted to assassinate Bush they would not be considered a terrorist. Is that what you believe? Or are there different rules for Bush?

That is correct, such a person would be an enemy of the United States, but not a terrorist. I suppose if the goal were specifically to create terror, and the assasination of Bush were a secondary goal, he might be a terrorist, but I really reserve the term for people who deliberately target non-combatants. A person who targets combatants, no matter how much I object to what he is trying to accomplish, is not generally what I would call a terrorst.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html

More later

Cycloptichorn

If these figures are correct, and if the reasons for the killings are accurate (the children didn't do something to put Israelis in direct fear for their lives like throw grenades), then the soldiers in question should be rounded up like dogs, given scrupulously fair trials, and then hanged from the nearest trees and left to rot in the sun.

However, knowing the character of the Palestinian advocates, it will take more than this to convince me the accusation is true.

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Yeah, whatever. What DO you need as proof? Is there ANY proof that would convince you?

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Yeah, whatever. What DO you need as proof? Is there ANY proof that would convince you?

Cycloptichorn

Yes. Some amount of proof would convince me. It would help if it were from non-Palestinian sources, since I do not place a lot of faith in people who actually do what these soldiers may have done.

Also, if it is actually true, I would like to know if the orders come from above, or even if those above know about it and wink at it. If these children were killed deliberately while engaging in innocuous activities not likely to really endanger Israelis, everyone responsible along the entire chain of cause and effect should be hanged.

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I suggest you start doing some research, then, because you will be surprised at what you find, Brandon.

How can you say 'since I do not place a lot of faith in people who actually do what these soldiers may have done.' But the people writing the sites and stats AREN'T killers. You are tarring the whole Palestinian people with the same brush. Not good.

Cycloptichorn

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The numbers and statistics come from:

http://rememberthesechildren.org/

Which chronicles both Israeli and Palestinian children killed in the conflict. They have extensive links to where they get their info from and don't take a stance on anything else about the conflict.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

I suggest you start doing some research, then, because you will be surprised at what you find, Brandon.

How can you say 'since I do not place a lot of faith in people who actually do what these soldiers may have done.' But the people writing the sites and stats AREN'T killers. You are tarring the whole Palestinian people with the same brush. Not good.

Cycloptichorn

Probably most of the Palestinians are the same as people everywhere, and many are innocent pawns. However, as far back as I can remember, the Palestinians have been making their case by machine gunning school buses and so on. As a political force, it is their characteristic method of self-expression. When people involved with the Palestinian cause accuse Israeli soldiers of being baby-killers, I am going to have to see some pretty good proof to believe it.

However, if this were as presented in your link, every single complicit person would be guilty of crimes against humanity, and I would advocate the death penalty, whether the participation was active or only in a support capacity.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

The numbers and statistics come from:

http://rememberthesechildren.org/

Which chronicles both Israeli and Palestinian children killed in the conflict. They have extensive links to where they get their info from and don't take a stance on anything else about the conflict.

Cycloptichorn

I just looked at your link very quickly, and I find it immensely suspicious that they are not including the murder of Israelis by Palestinian suicide bombers.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

I just looked at your link very quickly, and I find it immensely suspicious that they are not including the murder of Israelis by Palestinian suicide bombers.

Perhaps there's something wrong with your computer or your internet connection, Brandon?

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They count the number of dead children on either side, yo!

You have to read a little deeper if you want to find the listings of Israeli children killed by suicide bombers, because the number is FAR, FAR lower than the number of Palestinian children killed by Israeli troops.

http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2001.html

Scroll about halfway down and you'll see this gem

Quote:

28
March 2001

Naftali Lanzkorn, 13,
of Petah Tikva,
killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber.

Eliran Rosenberg-Zayat, 15,
of Givat Shmuel,
killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber.

You have to actually read things to find out the information they contain, Brandon...

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

You have to read a little deeper

... or just look at the left site/go with the cursor over the pics (at least here it is so).

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To be fair, the mouse-overs are on the index page, which wasn't the first page I saw when I went.

The link I originally found to the site was to the 'about' page.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

They count the number of dead children on either side, yo!

You have to read a little deeper if you want to find the listings of Israeli children killed by suicide bombers, because the number is FAR, FAR lower than the number of Palestinian children killed by Israeli troops.

http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2001.html

Scroll about halfway down and you'll see this gem

Quote:
28
March 2001

Naftali Lanzkorn, 13,
of Petah Tikva,
killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber.

Eliran Rosenberg-Zayat, 15,
of Givat Shmuel,
killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber.

You have to actually read things to find out the information they contain, Brandon...

Cycloptichorn

Okay. I am at work, and my time is not entirely my own. However, everyone should be judged by exactly the same set of rules. Any soldier, be he Nazi, American, Israeli, or an Iraqi insurgent who murders non-combatants who are not any real threat, particularly children, has, in my opinion, commited a death penalty offense, and that goes for accomplices too.

If Israeli soldiers are gunning down Palestinian children in large numbers without any provocation, I find it amazing that the news media are not making it widely known. I look at a lot of news, and I have not seen this before. In my experience, based on a lifetime of news I have seen, it has been the Palestinians who do this kind of thing in which innocents are the intended target, not accidental victims. Nobody should get a pass on this type of atrocity.

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Quote:

If Israeli soldiers are gunning down Palestinian children in large numbers without any provocation, I find it amazing that the news media are not making it widely known. I look at a lot of news, and I have not seen this before. In my experience, based on a lifetime of news I have seen, it has been the Palestinians who do this kind of thing in which innocents are the intended target, not accidental victims. Nobody should get a pass on this type of atrocity.

One of the reasons for this is the way the Israelis have managed the American media so well over the last twenty years.

How? The same exact way the 'information packages' that the White House puts out get put into news broadcasts: they film the material (Israeli TV), proffessionally, narrate it, provide story and links etc., and then send it to American news services for free. The news services love it because it's news, that looks well-done and sharp, but it didn't cost them a thing. The fact that the Palestinian casualties and the real situation over there is never really presented, well; that very well may be the point...

I never knew anything about this until I read a few years ago about a young girl who had been shot something like 30 times after some people threw rocks at soldiers, and then ran into a building. Then I started doing research.

I know you don't believe me, and I don't expect you to, but plz do the research for yerself; the situation over there is not good.

Cycloptichorn

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Brandon9000 wrote:

If Israeli soldiers are gunning down Palestinian children in large numbers without any provocation, I find it amazing that the news media are not making it widely known. I look at a lot of news, and I have not seen this before. In my experience, based on a lifetime of news I have seen, it has been the Palestinians who do this kind of thing in which innocents are the intended target, not accidental victims. Nobody should get a pass on this type of atrocity.

What Cyclo says.

We get it here, news from Palestine as well as from Israel ('naturally' more from the latter).

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