0
   

US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 08:51 pm
Gelisgesti wrote:
Quote:


Thursday, August 11, 2005

Mother's peace vigil gains support

SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER STAFF AND NEWS SERVICES

The mother of a fallen U.S. soldier who started a quiet roadside peace vigil near President Bush's ranch last weekend is drawing supporters from across the nation, including the Pacific Northwest. ...


If this mother succeeds, a great many more not less mothers will see their children "fall." Too many people here in the US think the primary problem is the Bush Administration. While there are certainly problems with the Bush Administration, these problems are trivial to that problem caused by the adherents to DAMD. Adherents to DAMD do not adhere to DAMD because of the Bush Administration any more than they adhered to DAMD because of the Clinton administration. They adhere to DAMD because they have become convinced that working for death is a shorter route to paradice than working for living.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 05:02 am
Are you trying to tell me there is a religion that offers life after death as a reward for living your life for their God?
I see what you mean by 'the life of the damned' ....

Who would proffer such an agreement into slavery?
Who would accept?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 08:06 am
Distributed by American Committees on Foreign Relations, ACFR NewsGroup No. 591, Friday, August 12, 2005; the author wrote:

The conveyor belt of extremism
Shiv Malik
The New Statesman
Monday 18th July 2005
< http://www.newstatesman.com/200507180005 >

Terror in the UK -- Hizb ut-Tahrir sells itself as a community group. Its
members become part of a viral network spreading word of a holy struggle.
Shiv Malik talks to one of its recruiters


While the growth and operation of terrorist cells in the UK remain largely
unknown, the growth of extreme Islamist organisations in Britain has been
obvious. After the bombings in London on 7 July, the New Statesman made
contact with a former member of the radical Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir.

Walid -- not his real name: he did not want to be identified -- recently
quit the party. During the past five years, he has worked as a recruiter
across the north of England, including work in the Leeds area. Like many
recruits to Hizb ut-Tahrir (Hizb for short), he is highly educated.
Recruited while still at university, he soon began running workshops and
distributing leaflets. Walid says that on a number of occasions he
leafleted the Leeds Grand Mosque, the same mosque where it is likely that
one of the London bombers would have prayed. "The manner in which
recruitment is done is pretty aggressive," he says. Hizb has also begun
using new methods in its push to recruit the young. "There is a kind of
reinvigoration of the idea that it's the youth who really need to be
targeted."

Hizb is banned in countries throughout the world including Germany and
Holland, but in Britain, where the group's world communications hub is
located, it operates with impunity. Officially Hizb denounces violence, and
there is no evidence to suggest this stance would ever change. Walid says
that if you approached the group saying you wanted to carry out a suicide
bombing "they would dissuade you". However, there is reason to believe that
Hizb acts as a conveyor belt for terrorism: in other words, members of Hizb
take their intellectual indoctrination with them and graduate to other, even
more extreme UK groups that do condone violence, such as al-Muhajiroun,
which was supposedly dissolved last September, but is still active.

Walid says that the UK contains "enough radical preachers who offer a
violent vision", and makes the point that the British would-be bomber Omar
Sharif, the 27-year-old from Derby who tried to help blow up a pub in Tel
Aviv in 2003, graduated from reading Hizb literature to joining
al-Muhajiroun, and then attempted his suicide mission. Hizb is the largest
extreme Islamist group in Britain, but exact numbers have been hard to
obtain. Walid says that, as far as he is aware, the organisation has
between 2,000 and 3,000 members in the UK.

Hizb's actions and recruitment methods give a telling insight into how the
four most recent British-born suicide bombers might have also come to be
recruited. There is no typical recruit to Hizb, says Walid. The profiling
of those who commit terrorist acts as middle class and well educated does
not match up to his experience as a recruiter in the north. That is just a
"media red herring". "The majority of members in Leeds and Bradford, for
example, were not professional: it was mainly guys who were either
unemployed or never received a university education, and who probably hadn't
even done A-levels," he says.

Walid finds it "shocking and scary" that the London bombers lived in the
Pakistani community in Britain. So why do young British Muslims join such
groups? The former recruitment man cites a number of factors. First is the
way in which Muslim clerics in this country, who are mostly foreign-born,
fail to engage with British Muslims. These imams are, as he put it,
"disconnected from the challenges of growing up in modern British society".
"They were brought up to parrot-learn the Koran. And they discuss things
like the correct manner to perfect your prayer. It doesn't resonate with
the youth."

Radical Islamist parties are far more in touch with the issues that affect
second- and third-generation British Muslims. It's an open goal, one into
which radical groups have been scoring time and time again. They don't
enforce "orthodoxy", such as dress codes, long beards and prayer five times
a day. "They can talk to you on your own terms and in your own lingo,"
Walid says. "It offers an alternative to the mosques, which are, as I say,
disconnected." Such groups also generally have a women's wing, which also
adds to their image of being modern and inclusive.

He says the solution that they offer -- a return to a wider political
Islamic state known as the caliphate -- is another attraction, holding
promise and acting as a "tangible goal", which members are always made to
believe is "on the horizon". They also play upon the idea that the
worldwide Muslim community or Umma is a whole; thus, by joining Hizb,
members will be directly helping to solve the problems of the Muslim world.

"Groups like Hizb have really cultivated this idea of the Muslims being one
body, this idea of the Umma. I think that dynamic is very, very,
important. It feeds the groups by allowing them to make you feel as though
you are taking active, individual involvement... To alleviate the suffering
of Muslims.

"The rhetoric of these groups is loaded and is very militant sometimes...
They will say, 'Work for the caliphate. The caliphate is the one that will
restore honour to your mothers and your sisters.' Or 'it's the caliphate
that will bring the criminals' -- as in Bush and Blair -- 'to account',"
Walid says.

But radical Islamist parties don't recruit in a bubble. Hizb holds
recruitment meetings and reading circles around the country, from Essex to
Edinburgh. Their methods at meetings are very personal and direct. "If you
came to the meeting I'd try to win you over," Walid explains. "Say for
example that you're having a marriage breakdown. I'll use that: 'Your wife
is leaving you because of problems that stem from the fact that Islam isn't
present in the world today.'"

Hizb has also started to employ new tactics in order to raise the group's
profile. For example, Walid says that recently the Muslim community in
Stoke was worried about a shop selling pornographic material opening up in
the area. He says that Hizb members pushed themselves to the front of the
protest campaign. The idea is to gain status in the community. Walid says
members of the local group use this increased prestige "as a springboard to
win new recruits". Even if this does not happen, members will at least win
"active support for its ideas".

Hizb has begun to use other novel methods in its push to recruit the young.
Walid described how the party has set up Muslim football tournaments, the
aim of which is to preserve religious identity and make the young more
susceptible to the message.

"It shows Muslim youth that you can follow Islam right - so you can pray
five times a day, but at the same time you can play football and lead a
normal life. When you play football you do so within kind of Islamic
etiquette - so you don't swear, for example. And you do so in a kind of
atmosphere of mutual brotherhood. But of course all of this is designed to
turn these guys into future members."

In its attempt to avoid watchful council authorities and the ban by the
National Union of Students on Hizb activities in universities, the group
books rooms under mild-sounding aliases such as "youth forum". Once it has
got permission, it goes ahead with a full-scale event.

And that is the problem. Hizb is a group of intelligent manipulators who
are used to competing for recruits against other radical Islamist
organisations. It is not easy for ordinary Muslims to combat them, but are
they doing anything at all? The New Statesman can also reveal that
al-Muhajiroun, an Islamist group that condones violence and advocates the
overthrow of western governments, is still operating openly in Derby despite
having been officially disbanded eight months ago. Abdullah, a member of
al-Muhajiroun, told me: "Yeah, we still meet and I have a stall on Normanton
Road on Saturdays."

Abdullah knew Omar Sharif as a fellow member based in Derby. Was there any
communal involvement in what he tried to do? "There's some support in
Derby. I think when people commit martyrdom operations to attack the enemy,
this is the only method they have." I asked him, as we stood outside the
city's main mosque, what he thought of the London bombings.

"When you enter a country, you enter into a covenant with the country. You
have to abide by the law of the land," Abdullah said. "But someone could
also have come from outside this country. If someone came from Iraq - what
then?

"This country has been asking for it. Like George Galloway says, if you go
and attack people indiscriminately, you're going to pay the price for it. I
don't care who you are."

As I leave in my car Abdullah waves me off. And he stays on the pavement,
chatting to a group of teenagers.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 08:15 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Are you trying to tell me there is a religion that offers life after death as a reward for living your life for their God?
I see what you mean by 'the life of the damned' ....

Who would proffer such an agreement into slavery?
Who would accept?


The answers to your questions will be found below:

Osama Bin Laden "Declaration of War Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places"-1996; and,
Osama Bin Laden: Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans-1998
http://www.mideastweb.org/osambinladen1.htm
[scroll down to find them both]


Al-Qaida Statement Warning Muslims Against Associating With The Crusaders And Idols; Translation By JUS; Jun 09, 2004
Al-Qaida Organization of the Arab Gulf; 19 Rabbi Al-Akhir 1425

Quote:
Al-Qaida Statement Warning Muslims Against Associating With The Crusaders And Idols
Jun 09, 2004
Translation By JUS

Once again, we repeat our call and send this clear message to our Muslim brothers, warning against fellowship with the Crusaders, the Americans, Westerners and all idols in the Arab Gulf. Muslims should not associate with them anywhere, be it in their homes, complexes or travel with them by any means of transportation.

Prophet Muhammad said "I am free from who lives among idols".

No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.

Everything related to them such as complexes, bases, means of transportation, especially Western and American Airlines, will be our main and direct targets in our forthcoming operations on our path of Jihad that we, with Allah's Power, will not turn away from.

We confirm and repeat this statement in support of the Ummah (Islam nation), caring for our Muslim brothers' blood for who we undertake these operations, to defend them, their religion, honor and lands and to be free from those who disobey Allah's Orders and continue to live with the Crusaders thereby gaining an evil omen.

We further repeat our warning to the officials and those who guard the American complexes and who stand with America and its hired help, who takes up arms against the Mujahideen for defending for them and their interests such as the Saudi government and others who choose to support the idol’s regime over the Islamic one. We call them to repent, separate and to hate idols by fighting them with money, tongues and arms.

Our prayer to Allah is that we may assist His religion and spread His word and we ask to be given His enemies. Allah alone is sufficient and the end belongs to the pious believers. There is no aggression except upon oppressors. Praise be to Allah is our last worship.

Al-Qaida Organization of the Arab Gulf
19 Rabbi Al-Akhir 1425
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 08:54 am
Sory, I've been conditioned by you'r endless tomes .....I can't deal with more than 4 or 5 pages.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 09:13 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
hbg, I think you just touched the surface of trying to force western style democracy on a middle east country like Iraq....

I, for one, would like to see a democracy established in Iraq. Democracy is a universal ideal rather than only a western one. However, if the new Iraqi constitution incorporates religious law, it could hardly be called a democratic constitution.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 10:50 am
wandel, That is only your westernized personal opinion. You need to ask Iraqi's if they want western-style democracy. IMHO, I don't think so. That's the reason why they are struggling to create a constitution. These disagreements may end up as a civil war.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 10:57 am
c.i.,
you should know by now that i like to think of myself as "cosmopolitan" Smile

anyway, india has a democracy and china is experimenting with democracy!
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 01:45 pm
wj wrote : " anyway, india has a democracy and china is experimenting with democracy! ".

wj, you are right, of course. but keep in mind how long it took india to become a democracy; also remember the thousands of people that were killed (i don't want to do a look-up) before india became a democracy, and no other state went in to bomb the heck out of them when things didn't go smoothly. the struggle between india, pakistan and eventually bangladesh was a long and bloody one.

i'm not suggesting that nothing should have been done about iraq, but imo saddam would not have been able to hold out much longer and would have had to give up power.(but that's water under the bridge now).

when the united states decided to go into iraq they had to know the obstacles they would face. there were plenty of warnings by asia experts out there - but they were ignored because they did not fit into the "plan". remember the how the united states expected the iraqis to welcome the u.s. soldiers with "open arms" - and even flowers perhaps ?
whoever came up with that stuff must have been absent during lessons about the middle east.(again, that's water under the bridge now).

having come this far, the united states seems to be floundering and at a loss on how to deal with this mess.

(all this was discussed extensively on able2know about a year ago).

when u,s. troops are unable to protect the very iraqis who may be able to put iraq back together again, police personnel, administrators, physicians , government officials ... there is something seriously wrong. i understand that educated iraqis (such as physicians) are leaving iraq at an accelararted rate every day because they fear for their lives; there is little hope for a new iraq that has lost the very people who might put the pieces back together. hbg.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 02:44 pm
hbg, All good points. The very people who could potentially help Iraq return to 'normalcy' are leaving in droves. The professional class will be a big void in Iraq, and all the other players are die-hard politicians that will probably not be very good for Iraq. It's a mixed bag with lots of nothings inside to make it look half full, but I wouldn't put my money to argue the point that "thhings are progressing in Iraq" as this administration keeps telling the world.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 03:23 pm
erased
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 03:44 pm
Gelisgesti wrote:
Are you trying to tell me there is a religion that offers life after death as a reward for living your life for their God?
I see what you mean by 'the life of the damned' ....

Who would proffer such an agreement into slavery?
Who would accept?

Gelisgesti wrote:
Sory, I've been conditioned by you'r endless tomes .....I can't deal with more than 4 or 5 pages.


In their booklet, the Pakistani jihadist group Lashkar-e-Taiba (Army of the Pure) wrote:


eight reasons for global jihad. These include the restoration of Islamic sovereignty to all lands where Muslims were once ascendant, including Spain, "Bulgaria, Hungary, Cyprus, Sicily, Ethiopia, Russian Turkistan and Chinese Turkistan. . . Even parts of France reaching 90 kilometers outside Paris."



In their fatwahs,al Qaeda wrote:

...
Our youths believe in paradise after death. They believe that taking part in fighting will not bring their day nearer; and staying behind will not postpone their day either.[1996]

These youths believe in what has been told by Allah and His messenger (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) about the greatness of the reward for the Mujahideen and Martyrs; Allah, the most exalted said: {and -so far- those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish. He will guide them and improve their condition. and cause them to enter the garden -paradise- which He has made known to them}. (Muhammad; 47:4-6). Allah the Exalted also said: {and do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay -they are- alive, but you do not perceive} (Bagarah; 2:154).[1996]

I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped [1998]
...
No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.[2004]
...
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 04:52 pm
Are you anxious to die for your reward, Ican?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 04:58 pm
Gelisgesti wrote:
Are you anxious to die for your reward, Ican?

No! Are you? Laughing
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 05:01 pm
[i][b]malignancy [/b][/i]in their booklet by the Pakistani jihadist group Lashkar-e-Taiba (Army of the Pure) wrote:


eight reasons for global jihad. These include the restoration of Islamic sovereignty to all lands where Muslims were once ascendant, including Spain, "Bulgaria, Hungary, Cyprus, Sicily, Ethiopia, Russian Turkistan and Chinese Turkistan. . . Even parts of France reaching 90 kilometers outside Paris."



[i][b]malignancy [/b][/i]in their fatwahs wrote:


[1996]
Our youths believe in paradise after death. They believe that taking part in fighting will not bring their day nearer; and staying behind will not postpone their day either.

These youths believe in what has been told by Allah and His messenger (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) about the greatness of the reward for the Mujahideen and Martyrs; Allah, the most exalted said: {and -so far- those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish. He will guide them and improve their condition. and cause them to enter the garden -paradise- which He has made known to them}. (Muhammad; 47:4-6). Allah the Exalted also said: {and do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay -they are- alive, but you do not perceive} (Bagarah; 2:154).

[1998]
I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped.
...
[2004]
No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.
...
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 05:12 pm
the u.s. , the u.n. and us
wj : of course i had to check up on india/pakistan/bangladesh.her are some facts on that bloody confrontation:

"Whatever the "causes" of the partition, the brute facts cannot be belied: down to the present day, the partition remains the single largest episode of the uprooting of people in modern history, as between 12 to 14 million left their home to take up residence across the border. The estimates of how many people died vary immensely, generally hovering in the 500,000 to 1.5 million range, and many scholars have settled upon the nice round figure of 1 million. There is nothing nice or comforting about this somewhat agreed-upon figure, and it is interesting as well that few scholars, if any, have bothered to furnish an account of how they came to accept any estimate that they have deemed reasonable. We know only that hundreds of thousands died: in South Asia, that is apparently the destiny of the dead, to be unknown and unaccounted for, part of an undistinguished collectivity in death ....THE BLOODY PARTITION...

furthermore my old but trusty 1999 TIME ALMANAC states that when bangladesh separated from pakistan "1,000,000" people died in that conflict ... and i don't believe anyone intervened.

while i would not to be seen as condoning saddam's crimes, it seems to me that "very selective" approaches to solving the problems of the world are being used - i wonder how these "selective approaches" are decided upon. hbg
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 05:48 pm
Actually, Hamburger, the Indian Army intervened in a big way when East Pakistan broke away to become Bangladesh. It was very much to the political advantage of India to assure the effective separation of those two states.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 05:59 pm
Re: the u.s. , the u.n. and us
hamburger wrote:

...
my old but trusty 1999 TIME ALMANAC states that when bangladesh separated from pakistan "1,000,000" people died in that conflict ... and i don't believe anyone intervened.

while i would not to be seen as condoning saddam's crimes, it seems to me that "very selective" approaches to solving the problems of the world are being used - i wonder how these "selective approaches" are decided upon. hbg


1999? That happened on Clinton's watch! I wonder what the US would have done if Bush were president at that time?

From Wikipedia:

At the beginning of the [March 20,] 2003 invasion of Iraq [the al Qaeda aligned, Ansar al Islam, formed in December 2001] controlled about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northern Iraq on the Iranian border.
...
When the US invaded, it attacked [the alQaeda aligned, Ansar al Islam] training camps in the north, and the organization's leaders retreated to neighboring countries. When the war in the north settled down, the militants returned to Iraq to fight against the occupying American forces.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 06:32 pm
bangladesh separarted from pakistan in 1971.

fromTIME ALMANAC :
...civil war broke out , and with the help of indian troops in the last few weeks of the war, east pakistan(now bangladesh) defeated west pakistan(now pakistan) on dec 16, 1971. an estimated one million bengalis were killed in the fighting or later slaughtered. ten million more took refuge in india...

if it would have happenend now, do you believe the president would have sent in the united states forces "to make peace" ? hbg
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 07:33 pm
If you are asking me, Hamburger, i'd opine that as the Bengalis are dirt poor, and have no oil fields, Bush wouldn't even be able to find it on a map, and certainly wouldn't care.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.11 seconds on 07/20/2025 at 10:31:49