The following is from materials used recently in a real life workshop, and I didn't take time to try to hunt up links for it. But it pretty well illustrates the mindset of those Ican defines as the malignancy I think.
NOTE: And before some numbnut here decides to interpret this as license to exterminate an entire race or religion, I, and I believe it is safe to say Ican, are quite confident that a tiny minority of people embracing the Islamic religion would even come close to qualifying as the malignancy.
Quote:To push the enemy - the greatest kufr - out of the country is a prime duty. No other duty after Belief is more important than [this] duty. Utmost effort should be made to preapre and instiage the umma [communitiy of Muslims] against the enemy, the American-Israeli alliance - occupying the country of the two Holy Places...
--Osama bin Laden's Declaration of War, published in al-Quds al-Arabi, and Iraqi newspaper published in London: August, 1996
Note that in this quote, it says nothing about Hating Americans or despising who we are. Nothing at all. It merely states that we are their enemies and the greates duty after Beliefs is to get the enemies off of their land. This quote also SPECIFICALLY talks about the American-Israeli alliance and occupation of their holy lands. This lends credence to my argument that they hate our ACTIONS (occupation of holy lands and support of Israel, who is occupying holy lands) and not our PERSONS. Thanks!
Quote:"So we tell the Americans as people, and we tell the mothers of soldiers
and American mothers in general that if they value their lives and the
lives of their children, to find a nationalistic government that will look
after their interests and not the interests of the Jews. The continuation
of tyranny will bring the fight to America, as Ramzi Yousef and others did.
This is my message to the American people: to look for a serious government that looks out for their interests and does not attack others, their lands, or their honor. And my word to American journalists is not to ask why we did that but ask what their government has done that forced us to defend ourselves. It is our duty to lead people to the light."
- Muslim leader Osama bin Laden from the May, 1998 interview of by ABC
reporter John Miller
Yet another quote that re-inforces my argument. OBL is saying here that we should choose a gov't that doesn't mess around in the Middle East. This speaks to ACTIONS being a motivation, not irrational HATE of freedom or of who we are. You couldn't find a better line than this one to support my contention:
And my word to American journalists is not to ask why we did that but ask what their government has done that forced us to defend ourselves.
There can be no doubt that this piece of evidence points to ACTIONS as a motivation; otherwise OBL would have said 'we are coming to kill all of you.' Or 'Our message to the American people is that if they don't convert to Islaam they will be killed.' But he does not. He says to choose a gov't that stops blindly supporting the Jews. Thanks!
Quote:Every Muslim, the minute he can start differentiating, carries hate towards Americans, Jews, and Christians; this is part of our ideology. Ever since I can recall I felt at war with the Americans and had feelings of animosity and hate toward them.
--Osama bin Laden in an interview broadcast on al-Jazira television. December, 1998.
Does he hate us because of what we have done, or because of what we are? It doesn't say here. Immaterial to the discussion.
And from David Zeidan:
Quote:It [The Islamist political movement, Islamic fundamentalism, or Islamism] is partly a reaction to the severe crises of modernity converging with the rise of charismatic prophetic leaders. It is both a religious reform movement and a political ideology that includes a social element of protest by have-nots against an oppressive order, as well as a counter-attack on secularism, which has reduced the power of religion in recent decades.
"The Islamist View of Life as a Perennial Battle," Middle East Review of International Affairs, 5, no. 4 (December 2001).
Another quote that supports my argument; that extremism amongst the Muslims is caused as much by economic reasons as religious reasons. We have, in our lust for oil, supported some very brutal regimes and pitted them against each other for quite some time. This surely can't sit well with the common man of the ME and doubtlessly has lead to reprecussions.
And this from an Islamic sermon preached May 13, 2005:
Quote:Look at modern history. Where has Great Britain gone? Where has Czarist Russia gone? Where has France gone - France, which almost ruled the entire world? Where is Nazi Germany, which massacred millions and ruled the world? Where did all these superpowers go? He who made them disappear will make America disappear too, God willing. He who made Russia disappear overnight is capable of making America disappear and fall, Allah willing.
We have ruled the world before, and by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again. The day will come when we will rule America. The day will come when we will rule Britain and the entire world - except for the Jews. The Jews will not enjoy a life of tranquility under our rule, because they are treacherous by nature, as they have been throughout history. The day will come when everything will be relieved of the Jews - even the stones and trees which were harmed by them. Listen to the Prophet Muhammad, who tells you about the evil end that awaits Jews. The stones and trees will want the Muslims to finish off every Jew.
http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=669
You should probably note that this is a Palestinian sermon given in Palestine, where they have no love for the Jew. As for the 'America falling' portion, they are correct; our country will sooner or later go the way of the other super-powers in the past. It is difficult to 'ride the tiger.'
Given that we fund Israel tremendously, basically making it our outpost in the Middle East, and that Israel persecutes the Palestianians greatly, how can you blame them for hating what we do? We give their enemies money and helicopters and missles to kill them, and you expect them to thank us? Wake up, Fox!
Interesting that you picked that quote and ignored all the others Revel. Your words seem to support the mindset that bin Laden is justified in his campaign to 'punish' America et al. You seem to support the idea that we forced them into it. It is this kind of mindset that many of us think irrational and muddle headed. If they can get enough of you to think this way, they can greatly further their ultimate goal which is to subject the entire world to Islam.
Hey Ican, can you go easy on the bold stuff? Yelling doesn't necessarily make your message any more persuasive, you know.
Thats pretty much the lesson the politicians and clerics were talking about should learn as well.
Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
World Islamic Front Statement, 23 February 1998
Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.
Al-Qaida Statement Warning Muslims Against Associating With The Crusaders And Idols, Jun 09, 2004
Once again, we repeat our call and send this clear message to our Muslim brothers, warning against fellowship with the Crusaders, the Americans, Westerners and all idols in the Arab Gulf. Muslims should not associate with them anywhere, be it in their homes, complexes or travel with them by any means of transportation.
Prophet Muhammad said "I am free from who lives among idols".
No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.
Everything related to them such as complexes, bases, means of transportation, especially Western and American Airlines, will be our main and direct targets in our forthcoming operations on our path of Jihad that we, with Allah's Power, will not turn away from.
A booklet by the Pakistani jihadist group Lashkar-e-Taiba (Army of the Pure), believed to be linked to the recent London bombings, declares
the U.S., Israel and India as existential enemies of Islam and lists eight reasons for global jihad. These include the restoration of Islamic sovereignty to all lands where Muslims were once ascendant, including Spain, "Bulgaria, Hungary, Cyprus, Sicily, Ethiopia, Russian Turkistan and Chinese Turkistan. . . Even parts of France reaching 90 kilometers outside Paris." Blaming the U.S. for the delusions of these admittedly small groups confers a degree of legitimacy on Islamist extremists and undermines moderate Muslim struggling for the soul of their faith.
...
I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped
...
No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.
...
eight reasons for global jihad. These include the restoration of Islamic sovereignty to all lands where Muslims were once ascendant
...
The following is from materials used recently in a real life workshop
...
Quote:We have ruled the world before, and by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again. The day will come when we will rule America. The day will come when we will rule Britain and the entire world – except for the Jews. The Jews will not enjoy a life of tranquility under our rule, because they are treacherous by nature, as they have been throughout history. The day will come when everything will be relieved of the Jews - even the stones and trees which were harmed by them. Listen to the Prophet Muhammad, who tells you about the evil end that awaits Jews. The stones and trees will want the Muslims to finish off every Jew.
Fox and ican will never understand the motivations for young Muslims to turn to violence, but an article in today's San Jose Mercury News is spot on. I will only post excerpts from it. The title is "Another view - Is their bombing worse than ours?"
I dare say we both undestand the motivations of those young Muslims turned to violence by their elders. In my case I've seen and heard, and did not merely read, all this crap before about alleged undestanding of the motivations of the young: circa 1940, Nazis Gemany, The Hitler Youth!
By Saree Makdisi, a professor of English literature at UCLA.
"... Suicide bombing is merely a tactic used by those who lack other means of delivering explosives. What happened in London occurs every time a US or British warplane unloads its bombs on an Iraqi village. ..."
... This is a war between one form of zealotry and another, one form of ignorance and another, one form of barbarism and another. More of the same will not yield solutions. The time has come to be human, and - motivated by sympathy, actuated by reason - to think and act as human beings, not unthinking brutes. ..."
Bunkum Slop!
This is the time to face reality! This is the time to set aside platitudes and pleasant dreams of what has historically never worked! This is the time to recognize that the adherents of the doctrine DAMD cannot be dissuaded by displays of our sympathy, our willingness to talk, our willingness to commisserate, and our willingness to negotiate. This is the time to really think about how we can really rectify the danger malignancy presents to the human race. This is the time to defend ourselves by exterminating malignancy before it exterminates us.
More hot air. You really should get control of yourself before typing if you wish to be taken seriously...
Cycloptichorn
What's the point of responding rationally to an irrational rant? There's no reward in it.
Cycloptichorn
The latter, call 'em lallers, will claim that no adherents to any religion on the face of this earth have a god-given-right to any area on the surface of this earth. They'll claim that rights to any area on the face of this earth are derived from rights secured by mutually agreed human rules of law.
Quote:The latter, call 'em lallers, will claim that no adherents to any religion on the face of this earth have a god-given-right to any area on the surface of this earth. They'll claim that rights to any area on the face of this earth are derived from rights secured by mutually agreed human rules of law.
Just as an aside, do these people then support the Palestinian stuggle for the return of their homelands?
Those arabs residing in Palestine do not have any god-given-right to Palestine. Any rights they do have to reside in Palestine are theirs only by the rule of law. Whose law? ---standby!
Those jews residing in Palestine do not have any god-given-right to Palestine or to Israel within Palestine. Any rights they do have to reside in Palestine are theirs only by the rule of law. Whose rule of law? ---standby!
Whose rule of law? Human rules of law! In the case of the jews and arabs any and all pre-20th century claims to Palestine or part of Palestine were obtained by the imposed rules of law governing conquests. Each had prior to the 20th century conquered Palestine or part of it and been in turn conquered by others who conquered Palestine or part of it.
In the case of the Palestinian arabs their original homeland was Arabia. In the case of the jews (hebrews), I guess their original homeland was where Abraham resided when his first child was born.
It seems to me that the Jews have become DAMDers according to your definitions, as they certianly don't allow non-Jews to become citizens of their country and don't even allow Palestinians free access to their holy sites.
If you are correct about what the jews allow and disallow, and additionally the jews have declared their intention to murder and do murder civilians, and not merely kill terrorists in self-defense, you have a valid point. But even if the jews do not murder civilians, they are wrong to disallow non-jews to become citizens of Israel with the full privileges and obligations of such citizenship. Whatever needs to be done to rectify that should be done.
Just an aside, mind you
Yeah, right!![]()
Cycloptichorn
Interesting that you picked that quote and ignored all the others Revel. Your words seem to support the mindset that bin Laden is justified in his campaign to 'punish' America et al. You seem to support the idea that we forced them into it. It is this kind of mindset that many of us think irrational and muddle headed. If they can get enough of you to think this way, they can greatly further their ultimate goal which is to subject the entire world to Islam.
Just as an aside, do these people then support the Palestinian stuggle for the return of their homelands?
It seems to me that the Jews have become DAMDers according to your definitions, as they certianly don't allow non-Jews to become citizens of their country and don't even allow Palestinians free access to their holy sites.
Just an aside, mind you
It seems to me that Israeli rules governing citizenship are no more restrictive than any non-dictatorship or non-totalitarian government, and are perhaps more open than most. You will note they do not prohibit even the Palestinians from application for citizenship.