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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 01:36 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Well when you find Christians using churches for military fortresses these days, please feel free to criticize them. I certainly will. And I won't take them seriously that they put any particular value on a holy place either.


Is'nt Bush using the far right evangelicas as a fortress to wage war from? That 'is' his base isn't it?.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 02:35 pm
No Geli, I don't believe it is. The Chrsitian right is part of the base, of course, but IMO the right of center demographics include quite a few non-Chrsitian and/or non-religious even right here on A2K. Even Ican, who has some pretty harsh observations to make about the president, I would guess would vote for Bush over say a John Kerry. I could be wrong, of course, but GWB's base is pretty broad and far reaching. That Christians overall probably voted for Bush more than Kerry does not mean that a substantial number of Christians (several represented here on A2K) did not vote for Kerry. The religious right is a substantial voting bloc but no more than blacks, environmentalist, gays, pro-abortionists, etc. are a substantial voting bloc for the left.'

And even so, what does that even remotely have to do with using church buildings or mosques from which to launch rockets and grenades?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 03:59 pm
ican711nm wrote:

Go to the library and reference the appropriate Britannica Year Books 1992 through 2005. Each such yearbook references the previous year.

The sections of those books titled Britannica World Data, Iraq, Demogaphy, and Vital Statistics are what you clearly need to review. Unfortunately, www.britannica.com , their on-line subscription service, doesn't provide on-line access to these sections.

I subscibe to their old fashion, annual year book mail service, so I don't have to go to the library.


The thread has moved on from this, but I feel the need to address this. You can find all the same stats at the CIA world factbook, where all of the population figures are marked *estimate*. Clear as day. Here's a handy reference. http://library.louisville.edu/government/goodsources/factbook.html

I could go line for line of the whole post, but I think it would be pointless.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 04:04 pm
You're right, Lash and Foxy. They should crate the stained glass windows, and pack away the silverware and the ornaments, and declare a cordon sanitaire, and have their war around and over but not through the most substantial buildings in a town, the churches.
Then you can blow people up, hang them and poison them, bring the buildings down on top of them, young and old, kill them by hunger or thirst or fire or torture or whatever, but the church would still be okay.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 04:13 pm
Congratulations Lash, you've provided all the evidence anyone could ever hope for that the Shrub and his Forty Thieves have absolutely trashed the reputation of the United States. Good work, i'd never have thought you'd go to so much trouble to prove my point.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 04:52 pm
Gels, Actually, GWB screwed up when he took the Shiavo case to the SC; many christians and republicans disagreed with that action, and that's one of the main reasons for his performance rating being so low - below 50 percent. His initiatives on Stem Cell and Social Security will increase his unfavorable performance rating for the next two and a half years. After that, he'll just continue to shoot himself in the foot.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 05:01 pm
The proof I provided shows that the majority of Muslims in the ME support Osama Bin Laden and his murderous methods.

OBL is a psychotic fanatic, as are his supporters.

They murdered our civilians before George Bush did anything to them. LOL!! You are actually trying to transfer blame for 911 from OBL to Bush. Yeah. It didn't really have anything to do with OBL, the 19 Saudi terrorists. They were pawns in Bush's evil, secret plan.... How's Cynthia McKinney lately?

You're quite off today.

By your constant, really pathetic attempts to subvert the facts in this discussion, you are really doing yourself an injustice.

The majority of Muslims in the Middle East support OBL.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 05:19 pm
There may be some truth to the claim that the majority of Muslims hate Americans. I wonder if there is some truth to the fact that the majority of Americans hate Muslims?
*********************

A WAR WE MUST FIGHT - AND WIN
BRAINWASHING MUSLIMS TO HATE THE U.S.


By: John LeBoutillier

The new Gallup Poll which shows an almost 2-1 negative view of the United States by Muslims worldwide is not a surprise.

Most Muslims live in countries with governments innately hostile to the USA. Even in nations with which we have friendly relations - Egypt is a perfect example - the majority of the news media, the educational establishment and the religious community are brainwashing the people against the United States. And this despite the US taxpayers pumping $3 billion per year into that country!

While most Muslims think the September 11 attacks were unjustified and morally wrong, Muslims have an equally unified view on the American retaliatory mission in Afghanistan. An overwhelming number of Muslims think the USA is not justified in its War on Terror in Afghanistan.

The perfect example of how information is distorted and warped by the Muslim media is the view of the September 11 attacks:

"The survey also found that 61 percent said they did not believe Arab groups carried out the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. Of those surveyed, 18 percent said they did believe Arab organizations were responsible."

What sane, rational person could deny that Arab groups were behind the September 11 attacks? Only someone who is not being exposed to truthful information. ** Sound familiar about what has happened to the US news media during Bush's tenure?

What should we do to combat this widespread mis-information?

1) Re-fortify and expand our Voice of America radio program. We need to target the Muslim world for a sustained campaign of truth telling about the United States.

2) Dispatch American leaders to Muslim capitols to make public appearances that explain American policy positions. These speeches and interviews should be un-censored, direct talks to the Muslim populations there explaining American policy.

3) Launch a direct satellite TV operation to broadcast directly into Muslim nations. This operation should not be propaganda; it should merely be showing what we are doing - and why. A straightforward explanation of what we Americans are doing - and why.

4) Present all the evidence of September 11 - publicly - on TV and in print. No editing. Let the Muslim world know what we know: the names and pictures of the 19 Arab hijackers, the telephone intercepts, the emailsÂ…all of it! Make a case in the court of public opinion very much as a court case would be constructed.

All of us - Muslims included - live in a New World. Television, radio and the Internet have made information the crucial commodity of the day.

In fact, information is more powerful than bombs and bullets.

America has a good story to tell. The shame is we have done a poor job of it - and have ceded the story telling to our enemies, who are masters of deception.

This is a war - the War of Ideas - that the United States must win.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 05:25 pm
I guess that as close as I'll get to someone admitting the fact.

And, it is in large part to a propaganda campaign...

...which some Americans are a part of.

Some of the rhetoric here would be enough to brainwash a Muslim on the fence about America. It doesn't take much when you live in a news vaccuum.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 05:38 pm
Lash, I have been willing to post apposing views/articles if I find them on the web - unlike most posters that support only one view. Even then, I have changed my opinion about issues I have supported very few times. I believe we are all capable of deciding for ourselves what the truth is and what isn't. I also have the freedom to conclude that Bush took us into a war without proper justifications, and continued to change them until he hit upon the idea of "bringing democracy to the Middle East" that many Americans now buy into. From Saddam's WMDs and connection to terrorists, bringing democracy to Iraq wasn't even a justification approved by the American People.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 05:43 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Gels, Actually, GWB screwed up when he took the Shiavo case to the SC; many christians and republicans disagreed with that action, and that's one of the main reasons for his performance rating being so low - below 50 percent. His initiatives on Stem Cell and Social Security will increase his unfavorable performance rating for the next two and a half years. After that, he'll just continue to shoot himself in the foot.

CI, he was testing the waters...you know ... trying to see how far he could walk on them. Not very far as it turns out. Them good old boys know he is very susceptible to a 'slam dunk scenario.

Go HERE for the poop on what is supposed to be a secular government ...we deny Iraq a theocracy, not that a theocrasy is good at all, but then Bush shows his hypocrisy with the faith based initiative program .... something taken out of governmental control, would certainly be worthwhile.

Go HERE to find out where billions .... that's with a B .... of tax dollars are given away. You don't bite the hand that puts you on the gravy train.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 06:08 pm
CI--

One of the main problems in a polarized debating environment--as I see it-- is the deep, illogical investment people make toward their main, heartfelt opinions...

An illustration.

Again, we see a ladder of succession to a point no one here can bear to contemplate. So, start at the bottom. ITEM A. See how far you get.

ITEM D--- The war was justified.

ITEM C---The attack on Iraq was planned to fight the war against OBL sympathizers, and create an environment to destroy Islamic fundamentalism by creating a democracy and giving Muslims something to live for, rather than something to die for.

ITEM B-MINUS---The majority of ME Muslims support OBL and hate America. This is all Bush's fault. No matter that timelines and facts don't bear this out.

(Item B makes anti-Bushies nervous, because it makes justification of the attack on Iraq much more easily argued. So, as you have seen done here, reality and an undeniable time line are totally disregarded--and as even you did initially, the facts and statistics regarding overwhelming Muslim support of OBL is refuted, because admitting it brings us closer to where some can't bear to go. So, the anti-Bushies made up a fake ITEM B. We'll call it ITEM B-MINUS.)

ITEM B---The majority of ME Muslims support OBL and hate America. This is no fault of Bush's.

ITEM A---OBL planned and managed an attack on the US without provocation.

--------
And, once again, I am asking people to take a fair look at Item A. It is true.

Look at Item B. It is true.

Item C is for another day.

<smiles>

I just think you all should admit the first two have been proven. I think you're afraid to.

(Except for CI.)

Item C doesn't HAVE to follow--but most of you can't tolerate being that close to it. IMO.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 08:19 pm
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/06/02/opinion/20050603_opchart.gif

If anyone can make this smaller and still legible, have at it.

We were discussing previously about the statistics in Iraq.

Here they are: The good and the bad.

NYT
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 09:21 pm
Lash, Please provide the link for your chart.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 09:38 pm
Link to chart.

Registration required...so I didn't link it before.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 09:47 pm
A fairly non partisan Q&A

Quote:
Was the war about oil?

There are many reasons why the Bush administration decided to march to war in Iraq, one of them being concerns over the global energy supply. Oil is the lifeblood of the global economy. The Middle East has about 65% of the world's total oil resources. With this in mind, it becomes clear that any instability in the Middle East would threaten the global oil trade. If the global oil trade were disrupted, it would cause a shortage in supply which would cause oil prices to skyrocket. Skyrocketing oil prices hamper global economic growth and threaten the world's economies. At worst, it could cause a recession in many of the world's oil dependent countries.

But why invade Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia or Iran?

Saddam Hussein, an individual who at one time wanted to become the leader of a pan-Arab movement, endangered stability in the Middle East. Saddam expressed a desire to harness the outgoing flow of oil in the region, possibly turning it into an economic and military powerhouse with himself at its helm. Such a situation would make oil-importing countries, such as the United States, dependent on the whims of Saddam, a situation that policymakers in Washington sought to avoid.

Therefore, after Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, subsequent US administrations have recognized the danger he posed to their interests and worked to stifle his growth. Finally, with the September 11 attacks, the current Bush administration was able to justify an invasion to remove Saddam Hussein from power by tying Saddam's government to the "war on terrorism."

But wouldn't a US invasion cause more instability?

Indeed, in the run-up to the US invasion of Iraq, oil prices rose sharply as investors feared that instability would ensue following a US attack. But Bush administration officials were quick to reassure investors that a US invasion of Iraq would be good for the economy, as in the long run the Middle East's oil supply would become much more stable.

There was also the hope that a new Iraqi government would release more oil into the global supply, pushing prices down and therefore acting as a boon to the economies of oil dependent countries. As the Economist magazine stated before the invasion of Iraq, "In the short termÂ… cheaper oil would be beneficial for the world economy. At a time when recovery is at best sluggish, anything that helps boost demand would be welcome."

How will the US be able to get Iraq to release more oil than it previously did?

Before the Gulf War in 1991, Iraq was exporting 3.5 million barrels per day - a rate that was limited by UN sanctions. American oil industry executives predicted that after Saddam was removed from power, and Western companies were able to upgrade Iraq's oil infrastructure, the country would be able to produce as many as 5 billion bpd. This prediction caused Larry Lindsey, the former top economic advisor to President Bush, to state last fall: "When there is regime change in Iraq, you could add three million to five million barrels [per day] of production to world supply. The successful prosecution of the war would be good for the economy."

Furthermore, by installing their own government in Iraq, the Bush administration was hoping to guarantee that, on matters of foreign policy, the Iraqi government would toe the US line. Many of the individuals who the administration planned on putting in charge of Iraq, such as Ahmed Chalabi, were Iraqi exiles who had lived in the US for many years and have good relations with senior members of the Bush administration. This would ensure that in matters of oil production, Washington would always have an open ear in Baghdad.

What are the other reasons behind the US invasion of Iraq?

The invasion of Iraq was also launched for strategic reasons. Based upon historical precedent, when the US invades a country, it usually establishes military bases there and in the surrounding area. These military bases can then be used to project US influence into the region. For example, the US invasion of Afghanistan led to the establishment of US military bases throughout the country. It also gave the United States more influence in other Central Asian states, such as Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. This put the United States in a strategically important location in Central Asia, close to the borders of Russia and China. These actions have prompted alarm in Russia, as the country still remains a strategic rival to the United States.

By establishing military bases in Iraq, the Bush administration has been able to remove the burden of stationing troops in Saudi Arabia, a country that frequently placed stipulations on US military operations. With bases in Iraq, the Bush administration has put the US in a good strategic position to influence events all throughout the Middle East. The Bush administration has increased Washington's foreign policy leverage when dealing with other states in the region that are considered potential threats, such as Iran and Syria.

Does the US truly want to help the people of Iraq?

Rarely do heads of state make decisions based upon moral concerns. The United States is interested in creating a stable Iraq not because Washington is concerned about Iraqi society, but because a stable Iraq would work in the interests of the United States. A stable Iraq, built by the guiding hand of Washington, would most likely pursue policies that followed US interests. An unstable, chaotic Iraq would not be in Washington's interests since it would threaten to destabilize the entire region; an unstable Middle East will mean higher oil prices; higher oil prices will hurt the US economy and hamper economic growth.

Will the US be successful in creating a stable Iraq?

The Bush administration has two goals in Iraq: creating a stable Iraq, and having the Iraqi government fit in line with US interests. These two goals may not be mutually exclusive. A stable, democratic Iraq could make decisions that would work counter to US interests. This difficulty is now being realized by the Bush administration, which has been trying to find a way to achieve both of these goals despite the rising anti-American sentiment in the country.

Who is attacking US and coalition forces in Iraq?

The Bush administration has been quick to blame former members of Iraq's Baath Party as being behind attacks against US and coalition troops. While it is certainly plausible that former Baathists are behind some attacks, they are certainly not behind all. Various guerrilla groups in Iraq have told media outlets that they are fighting against the "US occupation" but have nothing to do with Saddam's Baath Party; indeed, these groups claim that they will fight Baathists just as hard as they are currently fighting the US

This implies that in the buildup to the war in Iraq, various repressed political and militant groups were waiting for a power vacuum to develop. Once Saddam's government fell, these groups came out into the open hoping to establish themselves in post-Saddam Iraq and to gain power in any new government that forms.

But what about the accusations that foreign infiltrators are behind the attacks?

Once again, it is quite plausible that foreigners have infiltrated Iraq and are carrying out attacks against US and coalition troops. But this does not mean that there are not also plenty of Iraqi guerrilla groups fighting against the US occupation for their own motives.

Members of the Bush administration continue to assert that the resistance is only made up of former Baathists and foreign fighters simply because it would be a political blunder to have to admit that regular Iraqis were resisting the US occupation.

Why though do the guerrilla groups also target multinational (e.g. Italian) troops, and international organizations, such as the United Nations and the International Committee of the Red Cross?

Guerrilla fighters in Iraq realize that they will not be able to defeat US troops militarily. The technology gap between the two sides is simply too large to overcome. Because of this, guerrilla fighters are hoping to isolate Washington politically. In order to achieve this objective, they have attacked international organizations such as the United Nations and Red Cross with the hopes of causing these groups to leave the country. Indeed, so far this strategy has worked, as the UN and Red Cross have limited their staff in Iraq. By attacking small troop contributing countries, such as Italy, guerrillas are hoping to cause the populations of these countries to demand that their troops be withdrawn.

Through this strategy, it is hoped that international organizations and troop contributing countries will flee Iraq, leaving the United States as the sole enforcer and contributor to the occupation. If this would occur, the US population would become growingly disenchanted with the objectives in Iraq and may demand a withdrawal of US troops.

What would happen if US troops left Iraq?

If US and coalition troops left Iraq, there is a high probability that the country would fall into civil war. Iraq is made up of three distinct ethnic groups: Kurds in the north, Sunni Muslims in the center, and Shiite Muslims in the south. This strange national makeup can be blamed on post-WWI British manipulation of the three Ottoman Empire provinces that now make up modern-day Iraq. Throughout Iraq's modern history, the only leaders that have been able to keep these three disparate groups from fighting have been powerful authoritarian leaders, such as Saddam Hussein. It is not clear whether such a leader would immediately rise following a pullout of US and coalition troops. If no strong leader immediately came to power, the three ethnic groups would likely end up fighting each other in hopes of filling the power vacuum.


IslamOnline.net is not responsible for the content of external linked Web sites.


Source
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 10:09 pm
That seemed more even-handed than a lot of articles I've seen here.

Still. It was conjecture. I thought he was about 80-85% correct. What did you think?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 10:15 pm
Lash, Charts alone usually don't tell the whole story. You left out "... and the unemployment rate, Iraq's economy appears weaker than it was during the Baathist reign.

Much has been made, rightly, of the intensification of the insurgency. Last month's toll on United States troops was well above the average for the last two years, and was the deadliest yet for Iraqi security forces. Still, Iraqis are providing authorities with far more tips on insurgent activities than even a few months ago. And most people remain optimistic about the future. Even Sunni Arabs, who provide the largest pool of recruits for the insurgency, seem slightly more hopeful than a year ago. This optimism is welcome, because with security conditions poor and the economy a mixed bag, the fledgling political process has increasingly become Iraq's main good news - and main hope. "

Comment: Even though "the fledgling political process as become Iraq's main good news" - I wonder how much more Americans willl have to sacrifice in both lives and treasure?
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 10:21 pm
Well, it was'nt propaganda .... I get so sick and damned tired of hearing that from both sides.
We have lost the right to be an American ....... with us or against us my ass
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 10:30 pm
Neither side of this is right all the time, or devoid of all decency, and rationality.

I wish we could talk to one another as thinking people, without wearing our agenda-laden name cards.

But, I find it hard to do for long, myself.
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