Cycloptichorn wrote:I understand that this is your opinion; but they disagree with you and I'm sure could provide very convincing arguments as to why their system of life is superior to ours.
I agree with you that they need to stop searching for scapegoats; so why should we so convienently provide them with one?
Cycloptichorn
CI-- I am responding to this post, which references the "quite irrational cultural antipathy for us and what we represent" in yet another post.
We are hated because of the Saud's duplicitous relationship with the Wahhabis--where we are used as a scapegoat by both of them. The Saudis could not possibly--and still cannot provide the manpower to run what feeds their country. They asked us to help. It's been downhill since then.
If all these lawyers can't do anything about the mistreatment of our prisoners at Gitmo, I'm not sure who can.
From NYT:
May 30, 2005
In Rising Numbers, Lawyers Head for Guantánamo Bay
By NEIL A. LEWIS
WASHINGTON, May 29 - In the last few months, the small commercial air service to the naval base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, has been carrying people the military authorities had hoped would never be allowed there: American lawyers.
And they have been arriving in increasing numbers, providing more than a third of about 530 remaining detainees with representation in federal court. Despite considerable obstacles and expenses, other lawyers are lining up to challenge the government's detention of people the military has called enemy combatants and possible terrorists.
A meeting earlier this month in New York City at the law firm Clifford Chance drew dozens of new volunteer lawyers who attended lectures from other lawyers who have been through the rigorous process of getting the government to allow them access to Guantánamo.
The increase in lawyers for Guantánamo detainees was set in motion last June when the Supreme Court ruled against the Bush administration and said the prisoners there were entitled to challenge their detentions in federal courts.
The rate at which lawyers have stepped forward for the task may be a reflection of the changing public attitudes about Guantánamo Bay and its mission.
"In the beginning, just after 9/11, we couldn't get anybody," said Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, a group based in New York that is coordinating the assigning of lawyers to prisoners. The earliest volunteers, Mr. Ratner said, were those who regularly handled death-penalty clients and were accustomed to representing the reviled in near-hopeless cases.
But in recent months, some of the nation's largest and most prominent firms have enlisted in the effort and devoted considerable resources to it, including Wilmer, Cutler, Pickering, Hale & Dorr; Clifford Chance; Covington & Burling; Dorsey & Whitney; and Allen & Overy.
"People are now eager to take this on," Mr. Ratner said. The law firms are bearing all the expenses, he said.
The influx of defense lawyers at Guantánamo Bay also seems to have had some impact on the character of the detention facility. Some of the lawyers say that it was likely a factor in the authorities' decision to end most of the interrogations in recent months. In addition, some lawyers and human rights officials say that the lawyers' presence has reduced reports of abusive treatment by guards and interrogators that previously were the subject of complaints from the Red Cross and the F.B.I.
Maj. Gen. Geoffrey C. Miller, who was the commander of the base for nearly three years, until August 2003, said during his tenure that the system was designed to make the prisoners as compliant as possible in order to make them thoroughly dependent on their interrogators. An important ingredient in accomplishing that, he and other military officials at the base said, was isolation from the outside world.
The arrival of defense lawyers at Guantánamo is an irreversible disruption of that isolation. The lawyers represent the detainees' access not only to federal courts but also to the international news media; the only other authorized visitors, foreign officials and representatives of the Red Cross, do not generally speak publicly about the detainees.
The lawyers' efforts at Guantánamo Bay have not yet resulted in any detainee gaining freedom, but the prisoners' cases are moving slowly through the courts.
In March, James E. Dorsey and John W. Lundquist, partners at the firm of Fredrikson & Byron in Minneapolis, along with Nicole M. Moen, an associate lawyer, traveled to Guantánamo Bay to meet for the first time with their client, an Algerian named Achene Zemiri. After arriving at the base, they were put in drab quarters on the other side of Guantánamo Bay from the main base and prison camp.
The next morning, they traveled by ferry and van to a small prison compound called Camp Echo, which was constructed to handle lawyer-client meetings and is outside the regular prison camp. Each brightly lighted cell is divided in two, with a table and chairs on one side of a heavy metal grate and the inmate's bed and toilet on the other. Mr. Dorsey said that Mr. Zemiri was at first wary and sat with his arms folded tightly around him. But by the end of two days of meetings, Mr. Dorsey said, Mr. Zemiri thanked them warmly and seemed to accept they were there to help him.
He said Mr. Zemiri's wife, who is Canadian, had given them phrases to establish their credibility. "One was the name of a strange soft drink," he said.
Mr. Dorsey, who practices civil law, said he was eager to help "the effort on the part of the bar to see that there are meaningful and just processes." While the firm agreed to the initial representation, partners balked at taking on a second client, who was a reputed Taliban field commander.
Tina Foster, a lawyer at the constitutional rights center who is coordinating the recruitment effort, said that of the 300 lawyers who have signed up, most have not yet been to Guantánamo Bay because the process of getting security clearance is onerous. "Some of the detainees don't even yet know they have attorneys," Ms. Foster said.
The first detainees to get lawyers are those whose families have made an effort. Sometimes, Ms. Foster said, the center learns of a detainee's wish to be represented through letters from other detainees to their lawyers.
Some lawyers have said that interrogators at Guantánamo Bay have tried to discourage prisoners from trusting them. They have said that some inmates have been sharply questioned after their lawyers depart and that others have been told they should not trust lawyers who are Jewish.
One issue the lawyers have had to deal with is advising their clients whether to participate in tribunals being conducted for each detainee to determine whether he is no longer a threat and could be released.
Douglas Cox, a lawyer with Allen & Overy in New York, which represents 14 Yemenis at Guantánamo Bay, said that he had advised his clients to appear before the three-member panels even though they could not be accompanied by their lawyers. "We think that on balance our clients could be helped if they appear," Mr. Cox said.
He said there was an assumption among lawyers that the intent of the new set of tribunals was to release prisoners and reduce population at the base.
Scott Sullivan, a lawyer with Allen & Overy, said that after reviewing the evidence against one of the Yemenis who was arrested in Pakistan, including classified documents, he concluded that "there was nothing to support the case that he was an enemy combatant."
Setanta wrote:So, Tico, you think a hood of the type seen in those photographs, unattached to any other piece of clothing--you think that's military standard issue?
What about white sheets with hoods, and eyeholes . . . you suppose those are quartermaster issue, too? 'Twould be appropriate, though . . .
You were in the military, Set, so you can answer better than I. You ever have any problem procuring what you needed? I've heard tell someone with a needle and thread can actually sew a hood.
I'm not over there -- I've absolutely no idea how easy or hard it is to get your hands on fungible goods. Are you suggesting it takes a CO to procure a hood in Iraq?
Ticomaya wrote:Setanta wrote:So, Tico, you think a hood of the type seen in those photographs, unattached to any other piece of clothing--you think that's military standard issue?
What about white sheets with hoods, and eyeholes . . . you suppose those are quartermaster issue, too? 'Twould be appropriate, though . . .
You were in the military, Set, so you can answer better than I. You ever have any problem procuring what you needed? I've heard tell someone with a needle and thread can actually sew a hood.
I'm not over there -- I've absolutely no idea how easy or hard it is to get your hands on fungible goods. Are you suggesting it takes a CO to procure a hood in Iraq?
It takes a sharp eye to spot a hand sewn hood.... they just seem to break faster in a hand sewn.
Ask your CO about the new 'FUNGIBLE' hood. (requires some assembly ... twelve volt battery not included.)
Besides perhaps some more dozen deaths by two suicide bombings today ...
Quote:U.S. forces arrest Iraqi Sunni leader, party saysMon May 30, 2005
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. troops arrested the leader of one of Iraq's main Sunni Arab political parties at his house in Baghdad on Monday, party officials said.
The U.S. military had no immediate comment on the arrest of Mohsen Abdul-Hamid, head of the Iraqi Islamic Party.
The party officials said it was not clear why he was arrested.
The party boycotted Iraq's January 30 elections but was among several Sunni Arab groups that signalled this month that they were ready to take a greater role in the country's politics.
Iraq's parliament, dominated by Shi'ites and Kurds, has been trying to involve more Sunni Arabs in politics and the drafting of a new constitution, in an effort to defuse sectarian tensions and undermine the insurgency.
Source
Quote:Ticomaya wrote:
Quote:Setanta wrote:
So, Tico, you think a hood of the type seen in those photographs, unattached to any other piece of clothing--you think that's military standard issue?
What about white sheets with hoods, and eyeholes . . . you suppose those are quartermaster issue, too? 'Twould be appropriate, though . .
.
You were in the military, Set, so you can answer better than I. You ever have any problem procuring what you needed? I've heard tell someone with a needle and thread can actually sew a hood.
I'm not over there -- I've absolutely no idea how easy or hard it is to get your hands on fungible goods. Are you suggesting it takes a CO to procure a hood in Iraq?
No, I don't think he is suggesting that, but if I remember right we had a bunch of fellas would come around and check on what we were doing. We had stripes and they didn't, and boy howdy they were a picky bunch. Always wanting it to be exactly the way they told us to do things and not opposed to yelling and getting in our faces to get it done.
There was this one Colonel, and I have to tell you, if he found a hood laying around where there shouldn't be a hood laying around, he would have some things to say about it and there wouldn't be much we could do but do things his way.
And here's the thing: we weren't allowed much thinking on our own, even if we had really, really, really good ideas, we had to check first with them fellas before we could do anything, because it was their job to be in charge, you see?
So, if there was a hood, homemade or otherwise, my CO woulda known about it, and if he didn't know it was because he wasn't doing his fuggin job. Okay? Either way, it's on him, that's why they didn't give him no stripes, because he's in charge, damnit.
Joe(and we had to stand real still when they came into a room)Nation
Isn't it ironic how totalitarian the military is? Thank buddah some, like Joe, don't lose the ability to think. Others, even smart people, just become YES men, players who are willing to put aside morality just to stay part of the team.
Ci that is encouraging news.
Gel, so according to the article we are making too much of the ethnical differences with regards to the insurgents and the bombings? They just more or less want to kill everyone who has anything to do with the Iraqi occupation as they see it?
I am way over here in Kentucky and am not even terribly learned to boot, but it seems to be me :wink: that it would be almost logical for the ousted Sunni's to become insurgents. They would have had to known that if there was an election they would not be in power in anymore since the Shiite's were/are such a large majority.
As for the foreign jihadist, they are fighting America and we are there and Iraq is seen as Bush's project so it has to be a failure. Everything else seems not to be important.
At least that is how I have been interpreting what I have been reading about everything which could be 100% wrong.
From the NYT:
May 30, 2005
Bush Says Finishing Mission Is Best Memorial to Fallen
By RICHARD W. STEVENSON
ARLINGTON, Va., May 30 - President Bush paid a Memorial Day tribute today to generations of Americans who have given their lives for the nation, saying that while the United States has always been a "reluctant warrior," its soldiers have been willing to give their all to rid the world of oppressors and spread the ideals of freedom.
Speaking at Arlington National Cemetery across the Potomac River from Washington after laying a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknowns, Mr. Bush saluted all those who have died in uniform, singling out the more than 400,000 Americans who died in World War II. The United States, he said, "will always honor the character and the achievements of your brave generation."
When Bush pays tribute to our soldiers, I want to puke. He still hasn't heard or cared about the 1,000 vets at the DC hospital where benefits have been cut or reduced and have filed a class-action suit against Rummy, and he has the gall to stand up in front of the National Cementary to spill BS. Are Americans that stupid?
"Things are getting worse by the day." E-mail this
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Dahr Jamail, Electronic Iraq, 30 May 2005
The mayhem continues in Iraq, with today at least 40 people dead, including five US soldiers in Diyala province as the meltdown of the failed US-led occupation continues.
Two suicide bombers detonated themselves after walking into a crowd of police officers in Hilla, south of Baghdad. The policemen were demonstrating outside the mayor's office to protest a government decision to disband their Special Forces unit.
In yet another horrible PR move (or attempt to raise sectarian tensions?) by the US military the head of Iraq's largest Sunni political party, Mohsen Abdul Hamid was detained from his home early this morning in western Baghdad. Of course his head was promptly bagged and his hands tied before he was taken away to be interrogated. His three sons were also detained with him. Stun bombs and bullets were said to be used during the raid, according to his wife.
It just so happens that his party, the Islamic Party, opposes the new US-backed security operation now engulfing Baghdad because they believe the security forces will disregard the rights of innocent Iraqis.
Later today he was released and the military admitted it made a mistake.
The military statement concerning the matter said, "Coalition forces regret any inconvenience and acknowledge (Abdul-Hamid's) cooperation in resolving this matter."
Abdul Hamid refused their apology in the Arab media, and stated that he was humiliated when US soldiers held their boots on his head for 20 minutes. It was also stated that he accused American soldiers of removing items from his home, including a computer. This is standard operating procedure with home raids-I can't tell you how many Iraqis I've interviewed after their homes were raided who complained of money, jewelry and other belongings being looted by American soldiers. The Islamic Party released a statement after the release of Abdul Hamid which said, "The U.S. administration claims it is interested in drawing Sunnis into the political process but it seems that their way of doing so is by raids, arrests and violating human rights."
At least 740 Iraqis have been killed since the new "government" took power in late April, and with the ongoing operations sparking more attacks each day, it doesn't look like there is an end in sight. Keep in mind, the vast majority of the Iraqi security forces are either Shia or Kurdish battling against a primarily Sunni resistance (for now). It can easily be argued that we are witnessing a US-backed Iraqi government who is deliberating using its power to wage a civil war.
On that note, today Major General Ahmed al-Barazanchi, a Kurdish man who was the director of internal affairs of Kirkuk province died this morning after being shot yesterday.
My sources in Baghdad also said there have been fierce clashes today in the al-Amiriya district of Baghdad between resistance fighters and Iraqi and US soldiers. "Open gun battles in the streets," as one friend told me, "And as soon as the Iraqi and US soldiers leave the area, the resistance takes it back over."
Keep in mind that all of this is against the backdrop of well over 50% unemployment, horrendous traffic jams, and an infrastructure in shambles that continues to degrade with next to no reconstruction occurring in Baghdad.
"Electricity shut offs drive us crazy in this hot summer," one of my friends wrote me recently, "Even we can't read at night because of long hours of electricity cuts and because the outside generators can't withstand running these long hours and we have to turn these generators off for some time to cool them!"
He continues, "Two years of occupation...for God sake where is the rebuilding, where the hell are these billions donated to Iraq? Even not 1% improvement in services and electricity! They say again and again the terrorists are to blame and I would accept this, but why they do not protect these facilities? Do the American camps have cuts of electricity? No, no, and nobody will allow this to happen...but poor Iraqis, nobody would be sorry for them if they burn with the hell of summer, small kids and old men they get dehydrated because no electricity, no cold water, etc. Have you heard about the tea that is mixed with iron particles? It is real in our life. People have to make sure their tea is not mixed with iron by use of magnets."
He concluded his email with, "Things are getting worse day by day. Iraq has become a country not for its people, every day thoughts jump into the mind that sooner or later we have to leave this country, searching for another. And there is a saying, "your home is where you sleep safe," but this is not true in Iraq anymore."
He sent me that email three days ago.
Yesterday the Iraqi government announced that it may decrease subsidies for fuel and electricity, despite a severe shortage of both in the country, according to the electricity minister who warned Iraqis to prepare for more blackouts this summer.
Ongoing fuel, electricity and drinking water shortages persist, and only 37% of Iraqis have a working sewage system.
As so many of my Iraqi friends continue to say, "This is the freedom and democracy that America has brought us."
(c)2004, 2005 Dahr Jamail. More writing, photos and commentary at dahrjamailiraq.com.
What else can you do but weep after reading that?
One thing would be to check other sources to verify what he said...
Some of those statistics and statements are contrary to other reports I've read.
I guess you'd have to get a consensus.
Lash, There have been other reports that says the same thing; the infrastructure of Iraq is in worse shape today than it was during Saddam's tenure. My memory isn't all that good, but there's been enough different sources saying the same thing; where have you been all this time? FYI, more Iraqis have been killed during the past month than any time after 'major combat operations is over.'
Lash wrote:One thing would be to check other sources to verify what he said...
Some of those statistics and statements are contrary to other reports I've read.
I guess you'd have to get a consensus.
In three days time, Lash will give us an unbiased consensus based on statistics and statements of the actual conditions on the ground in Iraq.
We thank you in advance.
Joe(Never a doubt)Nation
Until then, we'll just believe every account that comes out of Iraq.
c.i. wrote:
Quote: Are Americans that stupid?
Unthinking, accepting without question, submissive, subservient, sheep.
Don't be so hard on them, sumac. They are interested in fact checking.
I don't usually respond to command performances, but I did want to check the statistics of improvements that have been made during rebuilding.
Lets take a look at some of the claims made by this man.
Things are getting worse by the day.
50% unemployment--(possibly)
next to no reconstruction occurring
Not 1% improvement in services and electricity
37% of Iraqis with sewage system
Some of them may be correct or close. Some may be wrong. Suggesting someone check facts is a good thing.
I don't mind being the one to do it. I don't know the facts as they are on the ground--but I have read accounts that say the infrastructure was in horrible shape before we got there--and we have made significant improvements.
But, let's just look at it together.
We can start with the information from the World Bank:
Graphs, stats, pdf.
Improvements are shown.
I never thought of sheep being interested in fact checking. Pigs, maybe.
I can't imagine why the sheep would be interested in the pigs, but I'm sure you know your barnyard relationships.
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Iraq's water system has been an emergent concern of the ICRC since the mid-1990's. Don't think we're hanging that one on Bush or the war.
They're getting a better one than they've had for at least 15 years.
The ICRC is a little biased against the military option--and say the Iraq water system wasn't fixed by Saddam because he didn't have the money-- but don't explain why he was able to build several multi-million dollar palaces, but no water system.
Saddam...water...
