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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 12:37 pm
blatham wrote:
bethie

Some of us have been arguing since months before the war began that permanent bases in Iraq were a fundamental intention of this enterprise.


That, and the OIL! Don't forget the oil Smile

<Now, where in blazes is that dang tanker?>
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 12:38 pm
blatham, Isn't is amazing that most people buy the rhetoric coming out from this administration that we'll leave as soon as they tell us to? We're building the largest embassy in Iraq, and about a half dozen or so military bases to we can "leave" when asked to do so. Shows how smart the American People are.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 01:01 pm
*edit*

The miltary bases... good strategic move. Also, wasn't it 12 bases that were going to be built? I know I remember someone of the liberal persuasion going on about that in the past.

Finally, did you guys happen to catch the last paragraph that says "A source at the Iraqi defence ministry said: "We expect these facilities will ultimately be to the benefit of the domestic forces, to be handed over when the US leaves.""?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 01:40 pm
I wonder what else has been 'expected.' We 'expected' to be done with the whole place long ago, we 'expected' the fighting to die down quickly....

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 01:44 pm
Yeah, we're building new bases in Iraq while we close the ones in the US. If any American wants a job, just go to Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 01:47 pm
McGentrix wrote:
We are not "building" the largest embassy, we are converting an existing structure that happens to be very large.


So all the reports about a request is for $658 million to build the world's largest embassy, the fortress-like Baghdad super-bunker embassy are wrong and it has been there for decades?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 02:18 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
We are not "building" the largest embassy, we are converting an existing structure that happens to be very large.


So all the reports about a request is for $658 million to build the world's largest embassy, the fortress-like Baghdad super-bunker embassy are wrong and it has been there for decades?


Last I had read, they were going to fortify the palace they were in. Did not know those plans had changed.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 02:23 pm
"Last I had read..." That's very funny. It's really easy to find what's happened, and what's going on with the US Embassy in Iraq. I've highlighted some of the article so you won't miss it.


"Published on Thursday, July 8, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
New US Embassy, Baghdad: Mother of All Dead Time Factories?
by John Brown

"The embassy is going to have a thousand people hunkered behind sandbags. I don't know how you can conduct diplomacy in that way."
- Edward L. Peck, U.S. Ambassador to Iraq from 1977 to 1980; cited in Boston Globe, June 26, 2004

One of the better known secrets of the Foreign Service is the amount of dead time imposed on its officers. Dead time waiting for congressional delegations to arrive at the airport. Dead time attending overlong meetings to coordinate embassy activities. Dead time handling the advance teams sent to posts by the White House to arrange for presidential visits. Dead time dealing with a ludicrously complicated personnel system in Washington.

Lots and lots of dead time which keeps Foreign Service Officers (FSOs) from doing what the taxpayer pays them to do while abroad: look out for American interests, observe the society around them, keep in touch with its most important elements, provide fresh information and new ideas with which policy can be formulated, and negotiate with the host government on bilateral or multilateral issues.

True, FSOs in the administrative "cone" of the State Department focus on internal embassy management and personnel matters. But their work aims to abolish dead time, not expand it. In Baghdad, they're facing an uphill battle to control this grave impediment to foreign service work -- as are their colleagues in the political, economic, consular and public diplomacy cones.

Based on over twenty years of experience in the Foreign Service, I see several reasons why the American mission in Baghdad -- which will cost in 2005 up to $1 billion to operate, not including the construction of a new embassy -- will create a dead time environment that will complicate if not denigrate the work of the 140 Foreign Service Officers assigned to it by the end of the year.

First, take the sheer size of the Embassy. It will have a staff of 1,500, including over 500 Iraqis designated as Foreign Service Nationals (FSN). Such a large number of people -- more than half civil servants -- will inevitably demand enormous personnel coordination and organization. With so many bodies around, it'll be difficult to determine exactly who does what, and an inordinate amount of dead time will be spent deciding upon assignments and responsibilities. Even Ambassador Francis Ricciardone, who set up the Baghdad embassy, acknowledges "there are technical problems, issues of different management cultures, different ways of keeping records and communicating and doing money and assigning people," while diplomatically stating that "the two lead agencies -- Defense and State -- have been really partnering.wonderfully." (Federal Times, June 28)."
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 02:24 pm
It had passed Senate in April, if I remember correctly.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 02:44 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
We are not "building" the largest embassy, we are converting an existing structure that happens to be very large.


So all the reports about a request is for $658 million to build the world’s largest embassy, the fortress-like Baghdad super-bunker embassy are wrong and it has been there for decades?


My concerns about many here and elsewhere do not relate to my perceptions of their feelings about Bush and his administration. My concerns relate to what appears to me to be their excessive focus on Bush and his administration's alleged and demonstrated errors and bungles and blunders, and too little focus on the real threat to Americans and others. That real threat consists of the AQ's (i.e., al Qaeda's) accelerating mass murders of civilians. Since AQ's inception in August 1988, in its original Afghan jihad against the Russians, it has grown rapidly in size and in total number of murders. AQ's growth did not begin its rapid growth only after our invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. That growth began in 1988.

That growth rate was facilitated by among other things those governments that tolerated and did not resist AQ occupying bases and camps in their countries. To end that growth rate and end AQ, the US must, among other things, ultimately remove those governments that tolerate and do not resist AQ occupying bases and camps in their countries.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 02:49 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
"Last I had read..." That's very funny. It's really easy to find what's happened, and what's going on with the US Embassy in Iraq. I've highlighted some of the article so you won't miss it.


"Published on Thursday, July 8, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
...


Sorry ... you lost me at the commondreams.org reference.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 03:56 pm
The following link provides the best analysis of the facts of the run-up to the war given the revelations of the Downing Street memo.

Save this in on your hard drive or on paper as it will go behind the 'pay for' wall soon.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18034
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 06:06 pm
blatham wrote:
The following link provides the best analysis of the facts of the run-up to the war given the revelations of the Downing Street memo.
Save this in on your hard drive or on paper as it will go behind the 'pay for' wall soon.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18034


I assume that much of this article, "The Secret Way to War", is valid. I have assumed for a very long time that the key allegations in this article are true. I among many others have from the day of the start of the invasion of Iraq had come to the conclusion that these allegations, while valid, are nonetheless irrelevant to the question of whether or not the US and Britain should have invaded Iraq. In plain words, these allegations are a "red herring." My argument to support this assertion has been posted here many times. Here it is again.

LEST YE FORGET

ican711nm wrote:
THE GENERAL ARGUMENT

Al Qaeda was/is a self declared agressor against the US. The governments in whose countries al Qaeda was/is based are accomplices to this agressor. It is al Qaeda and the governments in whose countries al Qaeda was/is based that must be stopped in our own self-defense.

Nothing the Bush&Adm or the Blair&Adm intended or didn’t intend, said or didn’t say, conspired or didn't conspire, or otherwise did or didn’t do can change these facts. The truth of the existence or non-existence of ready-to-use "WMD" in Iraq, or of a "link" between Iraq and al Qaeda cannot change these facts.

Pre-empting a tyrant consists of stopping him from hurting you more before he hurts you more. That is what we are attempting to do in Afghanistan and that is what we are attempting to do in Iraq


Foxfyre wrote:
There are some, however, who think you must be seriously hurt or killed before you are allowed to protect yourself. The frightened wife must not get a restraining order against the man she knows will hurt or kill her until he actually does the deed. They are more concerned about the feelings of the young thug on the corner than they are about the fears of the driver who offends him when he locks the car door. The civil rights of the criminal are more important than the rights of innocent people to not be threatened by him. The rights of a terrorist to not be embarrassed or made uncomfortable are more important than the need of an innocent victim about to be beheaded. So, a pre-emptive strike against a country with a track record for terrorist acts and that is on the record as having intentions to hurt you must not be touched until they commit the act.
...


ican711nm wrote:
The US invasion of Iraq and the US invasion of Afghanistan were both pre-emptive wars by both US and British govenment declarations, and by valid logic in order to prevent future murderers of US and British citizens. Al Qaeda declared war against Americans in four different fatwas in 1992, 1996, 1998, and 2004. These fatwas (except the 2004 fatwa) and the war they repeatedly declared were actually perpetrated against Americans prior to our invasions of Afghanistan in October 2001 and Iraq in March 2003.


9/11 Commission wrote:
The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States Report, i.e., The 9-11 Commission Report alleged, 8/21/2004 in CHAPTERS 1, 2.4, 2.5, 3.1: Before we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, al Qaeda et al perpetrated the following mass murders of Americans:
1. 2/1993 WTC in NYC--6 dead Americans;
2. 11/1995 Saudi National Guard Facility in Riyadh--5 dead Americans;
3. 6/1996 Khobar Towers in Dhahran--19 dead Americans;
4. 8/1998 American Embassy in Nairobi--12 dead Americans;
5. 12/2000 Destroyer Cole in Aden--17 dead Americans;
6. 9/11/2001 WTC in NYC, Pentagon, Pennsylvania Field--approximately 1500 dead Americans plus approximately 1500 dead non-Americans.


9/11 Commission wrote:
The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States Report, i.e., The 9-11 Commission Report alleged, 8/21/2004 in CHAPTERS 10.0, 10.2: President Bush announced to the nation, Tuesday night, 9/11/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that "harbor" terrorists. President Bush announced to the nation, to Congress and to the rest of the world, Thursday night, 9/20/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that "support" terrorists.


ican711nm wrote:
The US subsequently attempted to pre-empt further attacks by al Qaeda and remove al Qaeda training bases and camps by invading and replacing the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq, because of the failures of the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq to remove al Qaeda training bases and camps from their respective countries.

The real objective (all the contrary political propaganda not withstanding) of the invasion of Afghanistan was removal of the al Qaeda training bases and camps in Afghanistan and the replacement of the Taliban regime with a government that would not allow al Qaeda bases and camps to be re-established in Afghanistan once the US left Afghanistan.

The real objective (all the contrary political propaganda not withstanding) of the invasion of Iraq was removal of the al Qaeda training bases and camps in Iraq and the replacement of the Saddam regime with a government that would not allow al Qaeda taining bases and camps to be re-established in Iraq once the US left Iraq.

THE BASIC ARGUMENT

1. President Bush announced to the nation, Tuesday night, 9/11/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that “harbor” terrorists. President Bush announced to the nation, to Congress and to the rest of the world, Thursday night, 9/20/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that “support” terrorists. [Reference A, G]

2. Al Qaeda terrorist bases are necessary for the successful perpetration by al Qaeda terrorists of al Qaeda terrorism. [Reference A]

3. The US must remove those governments that persist in knowingly providing sanctuary for al Qaeda terrorist bases. [Reference A]

4. On 9/11/2001 there were terrorist training bases in Afghanistan. The terrorist training bases in Afghanistan were established in 1988 after the Russians abandoned their war in Afghanistan.

5. We invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 without obtaining UN approval and removed Afghanistan's tyrannical government, because that government refused to attempt to remove the terrorist bases from Afghanistan. [Reference A]

6. Terrorist training bases in Iraq were re-established in December 2001 after the Kurds had defeated them a couple of years earlier, and after we invaded Afghanistan in October 2001.[References A, B, C, D, F]

7. We invaded Iraq in March 2003 without obtaining UN approval and removed Iraq's tyrannical government, because that government refused to attempt to remove the terrorist bases from Iraq. [References A, B, D, E, F]

8. We are attempting to secure a democratic government of the Afghanistan people’s own design in Afghanistan primarily because such a government is presumed less likely to permit the re-establishment of terrorist bases there. [Reference A]

9. We are attempting to secure a democratic government of the Iraq people’s own design in Iraq primarily because such a government is presumed less likely to permit the re-establishment of terrorist bases there. [Reference A]

10. I think that only after this enormously difficult work is completed successfully, will the US again possess sufficient means to seriously consider invasions to remove any other tyrannical governments that refuse to attempt to remove terrorist bases from their countries.

REFERENCES

A. 9-11 Commission, 9/20/2004
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

B. Secretary of State, Colin Powell’s speech to UN, “sinister nexus,” 2/5/2003:
NEW LINK:
http://www.state.gov/secretary/former/powell/remarks/2003/17300.htm

C. “The Encyclopedia Britannica, Iraq”
www.britannica.com

D. "American Soldier," by General Tommy Franks, 7/1/2004
“10” Regan Books, An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers

E. Charles Duelfer's Report, 30 September 2004
www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/Comp_Report_Key_Findings.pdf

F. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org

G. Osama Bin Laden “Declaration of War Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places”-1996, and, Osama Bin Laden: Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans-1998
(scroll down to find them both)
http://www.mideastweb.org/osambinladen1.htm
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 08:31 pm
T
Quote:
he following link provides the best analysis of the facts of the run-up to the war given the revelations of the Downing Street memo.


Blatham, I seldom check in here anymore but I must agree with you that this memo says it all. The admin was full of outrage at Newsweek for getting (or not getting) some facts wrong. What a delicious sick irony.

The Downing Street memo leads into everything that is happening today. We look back two years and see that what the US did triangulated the Axis of Evil. Iran and North Korea saw that the US knew that Iraq did not have nukes so we attacked them. Aha. If one has nukes, one is not attacked.

Great piece in the Economist last week:

Iran and North Korea

Return of the axis of evil

May 12th 2005
From The Economist print edition


An embarrassment for George Bush, and a test for his critics

YOU do not hear George Bush talk much about the "axis of evil" these days. That is no surprise. Rather a lot has gone wrong in the three years since America's president told Congress that it would be catastrophic to allow Iraq, Iran or North Korea to acquire weapons of mass destruction. From the beginning, the melodramatic phrase never travelled well. And after the intelligence fiasco in Iraq, which was discovered after being invaded not to have any especially sinister weapons after all, Mr Bush cannot be eager to cry wolf again.

But despite the phrase, despite Iraq and despite the understandable desire of Mr Bush to change the subject, the fact remains that the wolves are indeed at the door. In the coming days or weeks, the world may face a double nuclear challenge from the axis's surviving members. From North Korea, which quit the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) in 2003, have come reports that the regime is preparing its first nuclear test. And Iran has just informed Britain, France and Germany that after six months during which it had suspended these activities, it will shortly resume converting yellowcake into the uranium-hexafluoride gas that can be enriched for a nuclear bomb (see article). It would still be several years from making such a weapon, but it would be back on the way.

If you want a multipolar world, do something
Should either or both of these events come to pass, note please that it is the world and not just America that will have to rise to the challenge. A lot of Mr Bush's critics will not see it that way. They will take satisfaction in his failure to achieve an aim he put at the forefront of his foreign policy in 2002?-and they will argue that the example America made of Saddam Hussein turns out to have fed rather than curbed the nuclear appetite of Iran and North Korea. But that argument is magnificently beside the point. The point now is that both Iran and North Korea are unpredictable regimes whose possession of nuclear weapons would be dangerous in its own right and might also persuade other countries in their neighbourhoods to go nuclear as well. Whatever can reasonably be done to stop this proliferation nightmare should be done. And this, for all the talk of a unipolar world with one superpower, is not a job that America should have to do, or probably is able to do, alone.

After the war in Iraq, the British, French and Germans started to talk to Iran about a history of nuclear cheating under the NPT that stretches back 20 years and has cast deep suspicion over the regime's claim that it is interested only in peaceful nuclear energy. One European motive was to see whether there was a better way than American pre-emption to discourage rogue regimes from acquiring nuclear weapons. If the Iranians ignore last-minute pleas and resume converting yellowcake or enriching uranium, the European three will not necessarily have "failed" (though, again, some American critics of Euro-wimpery will say gleefully that they have): the Europeans can justly claim that it was a success of sorts to have talked Iran into stopping for a period. But it would be a failure to leave it at that. To be taken even half seriously in future, the Europeans must do just what they have promised to do in such circumstances, which is to refer Iran to the United Nations Security Council, with an eye to imposing sanctions.

During Mr Bush's first term, the Americans expressed private exasperation with the Europeans. They were impatient for action in the Security Council. Now that America may at last get its way, it will rediscover that the UN is no panacea. The Iranians, after all, have a case to make. They admit to having bent the rules of the International Atomic Energy Agency, which supervises the NPT, but say that they have come clean and have every right to enrich uranium for peaceful ends. Iran's story of innocence is pretty tall, but it is one that powerful members of the Security Council may pretend to believe. Russia wants to sell Iran its reactors, China and Japan to buy its oil and gas. With oil at $50 a barrel, this is not the ideal moment to cut off one of the world's biggest suppliers. If the UN imposes sanctions at all, they are likely at first to be modest.

What, though, is the alternative? The Americans and Europeans have a bad habit of trying to scare the Iranians by threatening them with the Israelis: Congress, as it happens, has just approved the sale of bunker-busting bombs to Israel's highly capable air force. But although the Israelis do not rule out pre-emption as a last resort, they say they would prefer other countries to solve the problem politically. A military strike against Iran's dispersed, buried and concealed nuclear facilities might not succeed, and even if it did could provoke retaliation?-with missiles against Israel or by other means against the American project in Iraq. As for North Korea, which is capable of flattening South Korea's capital even without using the nuclear bombs it may already possess, there is no military means of disarming it that does not look prohibitively dangerous.

In theory, the absence of promising military options should be welcome news to Russia, China and the countries of Europe that took such exception to Mr Bush when he seemed to claim a general right of American military pre-emption. But it also obliges them to find another way. China has helped to organise a desultory series of six-country talks with North Korea, and the European three squeezed that six-month freeze out of Iran. What the Europeans and Chinese have yet to do is show that they take the proliferation threat seriously enough to take any risks or make any sacrifices to avert it.

Now is their chance
In the end, there may be no way to persuade countries that are sufficiently paranoid to forgo nuclear weapons. But Iran needs access to world markets?-not least in Europe?-to provide jobs for a fast-growing population that has fallen out of love with the Islamic revolution, and a pauperised North Korea depends on China for almost all its energy. If these regimes faced credible economic threats at the same time as being offered the right sort of security assurances by the United States, the nuclear genie might yet be pushed back into the bottle. But this will take unity, co-ordination and statecraft of a kind the world has not seen for many years. And time is running out.


Copyright © 2005 The Economist Newspaper and The Economist Group. All rights reserved.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2005 10:15 pm
Kara,
Jim Lehrer on PBS' news tonight had a segment on Iran. The situation does not look good at all.

I find the piece by "The Economist" to be overly optimistic in what they imply is possible, even though it is conceded to be extremely difficult and/or risky.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2005 12:51 am
Not really politics (or may be: cerainly politics?):



Quote:
At least 8,000 treasures looted from Iraq museum still untraced

By Louise Jury, Arts Correspondent
24 May 2005


Evidence of how quickly and irretrievably a country can be stripped of its cultural heritage came with the Iraq war in 2003.

The latest figures, presented to the art crime conference yesterday by John Curtis of the British Museum, suggested that half of the 40 iconic items from the Iraq National Museum in Baghdad still had not been retrieved. And of at least 15,000 items looted from its storerooms, about 8,000 have yet to be traced.

About 4,000 of the objects taken from the museum had been recovered in Iraq. But illustrating the international demand for such antiquities, Dr Curtis said around 1,000 had been confiscated in the US, 500 pieces had been impounded in France, 250 in Switzerland and 200 or so in Jordan.

Other artefacts have been retrieved from surrounding countries such as Syria, Kuwait, Iran and Turkey. None of these objects has yet been sent back to Iraq.

Other items had been destroyed or stolen from enormously important archaeological sites such as those at Nimrud and Babylon. "Some of them resemble minefields there are so many holes," Dr Curtis said.

Random checks on Western soldiers leaving the area had found some in illegal possession of ancient artefacts.

But he said: "I don't think large numbers of antiquities from these sites have been passing through London. I'm not aware of large amounts being in the salerooms in London."

The full extent of the damage has been impossible to gauge so far because of the deteriorating security situation.

The director of the Iraq National Museum has been forced to seal his storerooms because it is currently too dangerous for his staff to start work on an inventory of the material that has been returned.

An international mission planned under the auspices of Unesco, the United Nations' cultural organisation, with advice from experts at the British Museum, has been unable to start work for similar reasons.

The delays all make it more likely that material will continue to be lost from the country's archaeological sites, some of which have been permanently damaged by war.

Two years ago, the BBC documentary-maker and historian Dan Cruickshank suggested that museum staff had been involved in, or permitted, the looting . But Dr Curtis said he thought staff had nothing to do with the thefts. There was confusion, he said, because museum staff had emptied cases of transportable goods and hidden them in secret storerooms before war broke out.

A spokesman for the London market said everyone in Britain was acutely aware of the dangers of buying goods from Iraq and there were very strong deterrents. The Cultural Objects (Offences) Act of 2003 meant anyone trading in illicit objects facedup to seven years in jail.
Source
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2005 05:58 am
Quote:
"
5-17-04: News at Home

Historians vs. George W. Bush
By Robert S. McElvaine
Mr. McElvaine teaches history at Millsaps College. He is the author of EVE'S SEED: BIOLOGY, THE SEXES AND THE COURSE OF HISTORY (McGraw-Hill).


Although his approval ratings have slipped somewhat in recent weeks, President George W. Bush still enjoys the overall support of nearly half of the American people. He does not, however, fare nearly so well among professional historians.

A recent informal, unscientific survey of historians conducted at my suggestion by George Mason University's History News Network found that eight in ten historians responding rate the current presidency an overall failure.

Of 415 historians who expressed a view of President Bush's administration to this point as a success or failure, 338 classified it as a failure and 77 as a success. (Moreover, it seems likely that at least eight of those who said it is a success were being sarcastic, since seven said Bush's presidency is only the best since Clinton's and one named Millard Fillmore.) Twelve percent of all the historians who responded rate the current presidency the worst in all of American history, not too far behind the 19 percent who see it at this point as an overall success.

Among the cautions that must be raised about the survey is just what "success" means. Some of the historians rightly pointed out that it would be hard to argue that the Bush presidency has not so far been a political success?-or, for that matter that President Bush has not been remarkably successful in achieving his objectives in Congress. But those meanings of success are by no means incompatible with the assessment that the Bush presidency is a disaster. "His presidency has been remarkably successful," one historian declared, "in its pursuit of disastrous policies." "I think the Bush administration has been quite successful in achieving its political objectives," another commented, "which makes it a disaster for us."

Additionally, it is, of course, as one respondent rightly noted, "way too early to make a valid comparison (we need another 50 years)." And such an informal survey is plainly not scientifically reliable. Yet the results are so overwhelming and so different from the perceptions of the general public that an attempt to explain and assess their reactions merits our attention. It may be, as one pro-Bush historian said in his or her written response to the poll, "I suspect that this poll will tell us nothing about President Bush's performance vis-à-vis his peer group, but may confirm what we already know about the current crop of history professors." The liberal-left proclivities of much of the academic world are well documented, and some observers will dismiss the findings as the mere rantings of a disaffected professoriate. "If historians were the only voters," another pro-Bush historian noted, "Mr. Gore would have carried 50 states." It is plain that many liberal academics have the same visceral reaction against the second President Bush that many conservatives did against his immediate predecessor.

Yet it seems clear that a similar survey taken during the presidency of Bush's father would not have yielded results nearly as condemnatory. And, for all the distaste liberal historians had for Ronald Reagan, relatively few would have rated his administration as worse than that of Richard Nixon. Yet today 57 percent of all the historians who participated in the survey (and 70 percent of those who see the Bush presidency as a failure) either name someone prior to Nixon or say that Bush's presidency is the worst ever, meaning that they rate it as worse than the two presidencies in the past half century that liberals have most loved to hate, those of Nixon and Reagan. One who made the comparison with Nixon explicit wrote, "Indeed, Bush puts Nixon into a more favorable light. He has trashed the image and reputation of the United States throughout the world; he has offended many of our previously close allies; he has burdened future generations with incredible debt; he has created an unnecessary war to further his domestic political objectives; he has suborned the civil rights of our citizens; he has destroyed previous environmental efforts by government in favor of his coterie of exploiters; he has surrounded himself with a cabal ideological adventurers . . . ."

Why should the views of historians on the current president matter?

I do not share the view of another respondent that "until we have gained access to the archival record of this president, we [historians] are no better at evaluating it than any other voter." Academic historians, no matter their ideological bias, have some expertise in assessing what makes for a successful or unsuccessful presidency; we have a long-term perspective in which to view the actions of a current chief executive. Accordingly, the depth of the negative assessment that so many historians make of George W. Bush is something of which the public should be aware. Their comments make clear that such historians would readily agree with conclusion that then-Democratic presidential hopeful Richard Gephardt pronounced a few months ago: the presidency of George W. Bush is "a miserable failure."

The past presidencies most commonly linked with the current administration include all of those that are usually rated as the worst in the nation's history: Nixon, Harding, Hoover, Buchanan, Coolidge, Andrew Johnson, Grant, and McKinley. The only president who appeared prominently on both the favorable and unfavorable lists was Ronald Reagan. Forty-seven historians said Bush is the best president since Reagan, while 38 said he is the worst since Reagan. Almost all of the historians who rate the Bush presidency a success are Reagan admirers. Indeed, no other president (leaving aside the presumably mostly tongue-in-cheek mentions of Clinton) was named by more than four of the historians who took a favorable view of the current presidency.

Ronald Reagan clearly has become the sort of polarizing figure that Franklin Roosevelt was for an earlier generation?-or, perhaps a better way to understand the phenomenon is that Reagan has become the personification of the pole opposite to Roosevelt. That polarization is evident in historians' evaluations of George W. Bush's presidency. "If one believes Bush is a ?'good' president (or great)," one poll respondent noted, he or she "would necessarily also believe Reagan to be a pretty good president." They also tend to despise Roosevelt. "There is no indication," one historian said of Bush, "that he has advisors who are closet communist traitors as FDR had. Based on his record to date, history is likely to judge him as one of America's greatest presidents, in the tradition of Washington and Lincoln."

The thought that anyone could rate the incumbent president with Washington and Lincoln is enough to induce apoplexy in a substantial majority of historians. Among the many offenses they enumerate in their indictment of Bush is that he is, as one of them put it, "well on his way to destroying the entire (and entirely successful) structures of international cooperation and regulated, humane capitalism and social welfare that have been built up since the early 1930s." "Bush is now in a position," Another historian said, "to ?'roll back the New Deal,' guided by Tom DeLay."

Several charges against the Bush administration arose repeatedly in the comments of historians who responded to the survey. Among them were: the doctrine of pre-emptive war, crony capitalism/being "completely in bed with certain corporate interests," bankruptcy/fiscal irresponsibility, military adventurism, trampling of civil liberties, and anti-environmental policies.

***

The reasons stated by some of the historians for their choice of the presidency that they believe Bush's to be the worst since are worth repeating. The following are representative examples for each of the presidents named most frequently:

REAGAN: "I think the presidency of George W. Bush has been generally a failure and I consider his presidency so far to have been the most disastrous since that of Ronald Reagan--because of the unconscionable military aggression and spending (especially the Iraq War), the damage done to the welfare of the poor while the corporate rich get richer, and the backwards religious fundamentalism permeating this administration. I strongly disliked and distrusted Reagan and think that George W. is even worse."

NIXON: "Actually, I think [Bush's] presidency may exceed the disaster that was Nixon. He has systematically lied to the American public about almost every policy that his administration promotes." Bush uses "doublespeak" to "dress up policies that condone or aid attacks by polluters and exploiters of the environment . . . with names like the ?'Forest Restoration Act' (which encourages the cutting down of forests)."

HOOVER: "I would say GW is our worst president since Herbert Hoover. He is moving to bankrupt the federal government on the eve of the retirement of the baby boom generation, and he has brought America's reputation in the world to its lowest point in the entire history of the United States."

COOLIDGE: "I think his presidency has been an unmitigated disaster for the environment, for international relations, for health care, and for working Americans. He's on a par with Coolidge!"

HARDING: "Oil, money and politics again combine in ways not flattering to the integrity of the office. Both men also have a tendency to mangle the English language yet get their points across to ordinary Americans. [Yet] the comparison does Harding something of a disservice."

McKINLEY: "Bush is perhaps the first president [since McKinley] to be entirely in the ?'hip pocket' of big business, engage in major external conquest for reasons other than national security, AND be the puppet of his political handler. McKinley had Mark Hanna; Bush has Karl Rove. No wonder McKinley is Rove's favorite historical president (precedent?)."

GRANT: "He ranks with U.S. Grant as the worst. His oil interests and Cheney's corporate Haliburton contracts smack of the same corruption found under Grant."

"While Grant did serve in the army (more than once), Bush went AWOL from the National Guard. That means that Grant is automatically more honest than Bush, since Grant did not send people into places that he himself consciously avoided. . . . Grant did not attempt to invade another country without a declaration of war; Bush thinks that his powers in this respect are unlimited."

ANDREW JOHNSON: "I consider his presidency so far to have been the most disastrous since that of Andrew Johnson. It has been a sellout of fundamental democratic (and Republican) principles. There are many examples, but the most recent would be his successful efforts to insert provisions in spending bills which directly controvert measures voted down by both houses of Congress."

BUCHANAN: "Buchanan can be said to have made the Civil War inevitable or to have made the war last longer by his pusillanimity or, possibly, treason." "Buchanan allowed a war to evolve, but that war addressed a real set of national issues. Mr. Bush started a war . . . for what reason?"

***

EVER: The second most common response from historians, trailing only Nixon, was that the current presidency is the worst in American history. A few examples will serve to provide the flavor of such condemnations. "Although previous presidents have led the nation into ill-advised wars, no predecessor managed to turn America into an unprovoked aggressor. No predecessor so thoroughly managed to confirm the impressions of those who already hated America. No predecessor so effectively convinced such a wide range of world opinion that America is an imperialist threat to world peace. I don 't think that you can do much worse than that."

"Bush is horrendous; there is no comparison with previous presidents, most of whom have been bad."

"He is blatantly a puppet for corporate interests, who care only about their own greed and have no sense of civic responsibility or community service. He lies, constantly and often, seemingly without control, and he lied about his invasion into a sovereign country, again for corporate interests; many people have died and been maimed, and that has been lied about too. He grandstands and mugs in a shameful manner, befitting a snake oil salesman, not a statesman. He does not think, process, or speak well, and is emotionally immature due to, among other things, his lack of recovery from substance abuse. The term is "dry drunk". He is an abject embarrassment/pariah overseas; the rest of the world hates him . . . . . He is, by far, the most irresponsible, unethical, inexcusable occupant of our formerly highest office in the land that there has ever been."

"George W. Bush's presidency is the pernicious enemy of American freedom, compassion, and community; of world peace; and of life itself as it has evolved for millennia on large sections of the planet. The worst president ever? Let history judge him."

"This president is unique in his failures."

And then there was this split ballot, comparing the George W. Bush presidencies failures in distinct areas. The George W. Bush presidency is the worst since:

"In terms of economic damage, Reagan.

In terms of imperialism, T Roosevelt.

In terms of dishonesty in government, Nixon.

In terms of affable incompetence, Harding.

In terms of corruption, Grant.

In terms of general lassitude and cluelessness, Coolidge.

In terms of personal dishonesty, Clinton.

In terms of religious arrogance, Wilson."

***

My own answer to the question was based on astonishment that so many people still support a president who has:

* Presided over the loss of approximately three million American jobs in his first two-and-a-half years in office, the worst record since Herbert Hoover.
* Overseen an economy in which the stock market suffered its worst decline in the first two years of any administration since Hoover's.
* Taken, in the wake of the terrorist attacks two years ago, the greatest worldwide outpouring of goodwill the United States has enjoyed at least since World War II and squandered it by insisting on pursuing a foolish go-it-almost-alone invasion of Iraq, thereby transforming almost universal support for the United States into worldwide condemnation. (One historian made this point particularly well: "After inadvertently gaining the sympathies of the world 's citizens when terrorists attacked New York and Washington, Bush has deliberately turned the country into the most hated in the world by a policy of breaking all major international agreements, declaring it our right to invade any country that we wish, proving that he'll manipulate facts to justify anything he wishes to do, and bull-headedly charging into a quagmire.")
* Misled (to use the most charitable word and interpretation) the American public about weapons of mass destruction and supposed ties to Al Qaeda in Iraq and so into a war that has plainly (and entirely predictably) made us less secure, caused a boom in the recruitment of terrorists, is killing American military personnel needlessly, and is threatening to suck up all our available military forces and be a bottomless pit for the money of American taxpayers for years to come.
* Failed to follow through in Afghanistan, where the Taliban and Al Qaeda are regrouping, once more increasing the threat to our people.
* Insulted and ridiculed other nations and international organizations and now has to go, hat in hand, to those nations and organizations begging for their assistance.
* Completely miscalculated or failed to plan for the personnel and monetary needs in Iraq after the war, so that he sought and obtained an $87 billion appropriation for Iraq, a sizable chunk of which is going, without competitive bidding to Haliburton, the company formerly headed by his vice president.
* Inherited an annual federal budget surplus of $230 billion and transformed it into a $500+ billion deficit in less than three years. This negative turnaround of three-quarters of a trillion dollars is totally without precedent in our history. The ballooning deficit for fiscal 2004 is rapidly approaching twice the dollar size of the previous record deficit, $290 billion, set in 1992, the last year of the administration of President Bush's father and, at almost 5 percent of GDP, is closing in on the percentage record set by Ronald Reagan in 1986.
* Cut taxes three times, sharply reducing the burden on the rich, reclassified money obtained through stock ownership as more deserving than money earned through work. The idea that dividend income should not be taxed?-what might accurately be termed the unearned income tax credit?-can be stated succinctly: "If you had to work for your money, we'll tax it; if you didn't have to work for it, you can keep it all."
* Severely curtailed the very American freedoms that our military people are supposed to be fighting to defend. ("The Patriot Act," one of the historians noted, "is the worst since the Alien and Sedition Acts under John Adams.")
* Called upon American armed service people, including Reserve forces, to sacrifice for ever-lengthening tours of duty in a hostile and dangerous environment while he rewards the rich at home with lower taxes and legislative giveaways and gives lucrative no-bid contracts to American corporations linked with the administration.
* Given an opportunity to begin to change the consumption-oriented values of the nation after September 11, 2001, when people were prepared to make a sacrifice for the common good, called instead of Americans to ?'sacrifice' by going out and buying things.
* Proclaimed himself to be a conservative while maintaining that big government should be able to run roughshod over the Bill of Rights, and that the government must have all sorts of secrets from the people, but the people can be allowed no privacy from the government. (As one of the historians said, "this is not a conservative administration; it is a reckless and arrogant one, beholden to a mix of right-wing ideologues, neo-con fanatics, and social Darwinian elitists.")

My assessment is that George W. Bush's record on running up debt to burden our children is the worst since Ronald Reagan; his record on government surveillance of citizens is the worst since Richard Nixon; his record on foreign-military policy has gotten us into the worst foreign mess we've been in since Lyndon Johnson sank us into Vietnam; his economic record is the worst since Herbert Hoover; his record of tax favoritism for the rich is the worst since Calvin Coolidge; his record of trampling on civil liberties is the worst since Woodrow Wilson. How far back in our history would we need to go to find a presidency as disastrous for this country as that of George W. Bush has been thus far? My own vote went to the administration of James Buchanan, who warmed the president's chair while the union disintegrated in 1860-61.

Who has been the biggest beneficiary of the horrible terrorism that struck our nation in September of 2001? The answer to that question should be obvious to anyone who considers where the popularity ratings and reelection prospects of a president with the record outlined above would be had he not been able to wrap himself in the flag, take advantage of the American people's patriotism, and make himself synonymous with "the United States of America" for the past two years.

That abuse of the patriotism and trust of the American people is even worse than everything else this president has done and that fact alone might be sufficient to explain the depth of the hostility with which so many historians view George W. Bush. Contrary to the conservative stereotype of academics as anti-American, the reasons that many historians cited for seeing the Bush presidency as a disaster revolve around their perception that he is undermining traditional American practices and values. As one patriotic historian put it, "I think his presidency has been the worst disaster to hit the United States and is bringing our beloved country to financial, economic, and social disaster."
Some voters may judge such assessments to be wrong, but they are assessments informed by historical knowledge and the electorate ought to have them available to take into consideration during this election year."
http://hnn.us/articles/5019.html
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2005 06:10 am
Ah, Ges, that was wonderful . . . here is one of the humiliating observations:

One of the historians interviewed wrote:
(In a comparison to President Warren Harding) "Oil, money and politics again combine in ways not flattering to the integrity of the office. Both men also have a tendency to mangle the English language yet get their points across to ordinary Americans. [Yet] the comparison does Harding something of a disservice." (emphasis added)


. . . i literally howled with laughter . . . indeed, what a slur upon the unfortunate Harding--who could, at least, have blamed his wife.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2005 07:26 am
When I posted it I thought you might appreciate it Very Happy
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2005 10:16 am
Kara wrote:
... The Downing Street memo leads into everything that is happening today. We look back two years and see that what the US did triangulated the Axis of Evil. Iran and North Korea saw that the US knew that Iraq did not have nukes so we attacked them. Aha. If one has nukes, one is not attacked.


The Economist on May 12th 2005 wrote:
Iran and North Korea Return of the axis of evil ...

In the end, there may be no way to persuade countries that are sufficiently paranoid to forgo nuclear weapons. But Iran needs access to world markets—not least in Europe—to provide jobs for a fast-growing population that has fallen out of love with the Islamic revolution, and a pauperised North Korea depends on China for almost all its energy. If these regimes faced credible economic threats at the same time as being offered the right sort of security assurances by the United States, the nuclear genie might yet be pushed back into the bottle. But this will take unity, co-ordination and statecraft of a kind the world has not seen for many years. And time is running out.


Five reasons were given by Bush&Adm on 2/5/2003 for invading Iraq on 3/20/2003:
1. Iraq's Saddam Regime possessed ready-to-use WMD;
2. Iraq's Saddam Regime became host to al Qaeda December 2001, two months after the US invaded Afghanistan;
3. Iraq's Saddam Regime had built thousands of ordnance depots;
4. Iraq's Saddam Regime was planing to continue development of WMD after UN sanctions were lifted;
5. Iraq's Saddam Regime was murdering Iraqis at the rate of thousands per year.

Reason 1 was shown to be false after 3/20/2003.
Reasons 2, 3, 4, and 5 were confirmed true after 3/20/2003.

Reasons 2, 3, 4, and 5 are more than sufficient justification for US's and Britain's invasion of Iraq.
0 Replies
 
 

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